Are there people who honestly believe they've accessed unmediated, completely objective reality?

Ana the Ist

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It is truth to me. What other truth is there? That we are nothing but cosmic accidents, and there ultimately is no purpose or meaning to our life? I don't see that when I look at things. I believe I have a purpose and a destiny, other than this world.

Lol "it's truth to me."

Well there's truth...and that's something independent of anyone's desires or feelings about love and hope. It exists. Then there's "the truth to you"....which is what you want to believe, because of your hopes and desires, so you do believe it.

You believe that you have a "purpose" or "destiny" other than this world? What would that be exactly? You get to live in heaven with all the good people from your life while all the bad people are punished? Some infinite entity of love and kindness is going to bring you there to bask in it's glory?

Is it something like that? Is that what you really believe?
 
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W2L

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Lol "it's truth to me."

Well there's truth...and that's something independent of anyone's desires or feelings about love and hope. It exists. Then there's "the truth to you"....which is what you want to believe, because of your hopes and desires, so you do believe it.

You believe that you have a "purpose" or "destiny" other than this world? What would that be exactly? You get to live in heaven with all the good people from your life while all the bad people are punished? Some infinite entity of love and kindness is going to bring you there to bask in it's glory?

Is it something like that? Is that what you really believe?

Actually I'm not good at all. The Gospel is about salvation though. You can mock me I suppose and I wouldn't blame you, but in the end nothing will deter my faith in the Gospel. Without God there is no hope after this life, and even in this life I have grown to adore the teaching of love, mercy and compassion, that I have learned in the gospel. I love it and its in my heart. I have not found that in politics or anything else. It makes me happy.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Actually I'm not good at all. The Gospel is about salvation though. You can mock me I suppose and I wouldn't blame you, but in the end nothing will deter my faith in the Gospel. Without God there is no hope after this life, and even in this life I have grown to adore the teaching of love, mercy and compassion, that I have learned in the gospel. I love it and its in my heart. I have not found that in politics or anything else. It makes me happy.

It's not mockery...

I'm simply pointing out the obvious. It's designed to appeal to your sense of hope and fulfillment. It's there to give you a reason to deny some of the difficult aspects of reality. It's directly meant to appeal to your contentment.

None of that makes it true though.
 
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W2L

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It's not mockery...

I'm simply pointing out the obvious. It's designed to appeal to your sense of hope and fulfillment. It's there to give you a reason to deny some of the difficult aspects of reality. It's directly meant to appeal to your contentment.

None of that makes it true though.

Yes, that's Gods plan. Its about love. He teaches us love, like a father teaches his children. You may think you have the reality but to me this is reality. I don't deny difficult aspects of reality either, I believe reality is tainted by mankind's own flawed perception. Science is not always objective, although it thinks it is. My subjective reasoning is actually objective. I conclude that love is good, and that hope is good, and that it fills my heart with many good things. Its a rational thing. I believe love is rational. I'm not a robot or a machine but I'm a man, with a heart, feelings, desires and that's who I am. It would actually be irrational to not acknowledge and embrace this truth. My reasoning, while seen as subjective, is actually objective as well.

You don't need to accept it, and what I have inside myself will not diminish because you see no value in it. I have come to realize that the harder people fight for something, the more it shows an internal struggle. They fight within themselves. My battle is about over, I have grown in the spirit and feel less of a need to fight for anything. I instead live what I know, instead of fighting to prove it is real.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes, that's Gods plan. Its about love. He teaches us love, like a father teaches his children.

So in your mind...non-christians don't love? Or they learn love from a god they don't believe in?


You may think you have the reality but to me this is reality.

You understand that we cannot both be correct...right?

I don't deny difficult aspects of reality either, I believe reality is tainted by mankind's own flawed perception.

So, one of the difficult aspects of reality to you is that our perceptions aren't perfect?


Science is not always objective, although it thinks it is. My subjective reasoning is actually objective.

Your "subjective reasoning is actually objective". Congratulations, you're the kind of person this thread is referring to.

I conclude that love is good, and that hope is good, and that it fills my heart with many good things. Its a rational thing.

Actually it's an emotional thing. You're describing emotional needs...not rationality.

I believe love is rational.

It's an emotion.

I'm not a robot or a machine but I'm a man, with a heart, feelings, desires and that's who I am. It would actually be irrational to not acknowledge and embrace this truth.

You're right about not being a robot. You do have emotions and it is rational to recognize that...but it's irrational to think they're anything other than emotions.


My reasoning, while seen as subjective, is actually objective as well.

Your use of those words makes me wonder if you understand what they mean.

You don't need to accept it, and what I have inside myself will not diminish because you see no value in it. I have come to realize that the harder people fight for something, the more it shows an internal struggle. They fight within themselves. My battle is about over, I have grown in the spirit and feel less of a need to fight for anything. I instead live what I know, instead of fighting to prove it is real.

Who's fighting? I thought we were just having a discussion.

[/QUOTE]
 
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W2L

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So in your mind...non-christians don't love? Or they learn love from a god they don't believe in?




You understand that we cannot both be correct...right?



So, one of the difficult aspects of reality to you is that our perceptions aren't perfect?




Your "subjective reasoning is actually objective". Congratulations, you're the kind of person this thread is referring to.



Actually it's an emotional thing. You're describing emotional needs...not rationality.



It's an emotion.



You're right about not being a robot. You do have emotions and it is rational to recognize that...but it's irrational to think they're anything other than emotions.




Your use of those words makes me wonder if you understand what they mean.



Who's fighting? I thought we were just having a discussion.
[/QUOTE]

Your own reasoning here is subjective. You argue against every little point you can find in my post, as if everything I say is completely out of the realm of reason, but its not. Is it unreasonable to say a discussion can be a fight for truth? No and that is what you are doing, yet you deny it. Why is that? That shows a level of intensity, which would indicate a struggle for dominance in this discussion. Its really not as truthful or objective as you would suggest, but is rather contentious and unreasonable instead. Therefore your reasoning is subjective, just like every other person in the human race. Anyway, have a good day my friend. I enjoy love, not conflict. I try to keep conflict at a minimum, especially when the "discussion" is futile.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Your own reasoning here is subjective.

Everyone's reasoning is subjective.

adjective
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).



You argue against every little point you can find in my post, as if everything I say is completely out of the realm of reason, but its not.

Actually, I just try to point out where I think you're wrong...to argue against every little point you make would take too long.

Is it unreasonable to say a discussion can be a fight for truth? No and that is what you are doing, yet you deny it. Why is that? That shows a level of intensity, which would indicate a struggle for dominance in this discussion.

I understand that you'd prefer I stay quiet instead of pointing out your mistakes. I can see why that would appeal to you.


Its really not as truthful or objective as you would suggest, but is rather contentious and unreasonable instead. Therefore your reasoning is subjective, just like every other person in the human race.

Including you.

Anyway, have a good day my friend. I enjoy love, not conflict. I try to keep conflict at a minimum, especially when the "discussion" is futile.

It's only futile when we deny reality in favor of what "feels" good.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I would assert that even Science can use subjective reasoning at times. Science isn't always so holy that it is above mas faults.
It's not clear to me what you mean by 'subjective reasoning', as reasoning is just thinking logically, but the goal of science is objectivity; if there is subjectivity, it should be opinion about the science.

I believe that Love is the greatest knowledge mankind can attain.
Philosophically speaking, knowledge and love are two qualitatively different abstractions. You can have experience of love, and so you can claim knowledge of love, but love is not knowledge.

Data is not information; information is not knowledge; knowledge is not understanding; understanding is not wisdom; wisdom is not truth; truth is not beauty; beauty is not love...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It is truth to me. What other truth is there? That we are nothing but cosmic accidents, and there ultimately is no purpose or meaning to our life? I don't see that when I look at things. I believe I have a purpose and a destiny, other than this world.
Truth is correspondence with the facts (states of affairs in the world). You don't see a lack of purpose or meaning when you look at things because you have given your life and the world purpose and meaning through your beliefs. I give my life purpose and meaning through my own beliefs (although I prefer to call them predilections because they're provisional and open to change). The difference, as I see it, is that although both are personal and therefore subjective, one set of beliefs is rooted in the demonstrable and testable (objective) properties and attributes of reality, and the other is not.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... I believe love is rational. I'm not a robot or a machine but I'm a man, with a heart, feelings, desires and that's who I am. It would actually be irrational to not acknowledge and embrace this truth. My reasoning, while seen as subjective, is actually objective as well.
There's a difference between a belief or an emotion and the reasons for that belief or emotion. So it may be rational to have an irrational belief, in as much as there are logical reasons why an irrational belief may be held, and it may also be rational to have an irrational emotion or feeling, such as love, in as much as that irrationality is functional.

There is also the question of context, framing, and levels of abstraction. In the context of competing individuals, altruism (e.g. of love) is irrational; in the context of group cooperation & survival, it is rational.

Having a reason or a rational explanation for some irrational belief or feeling, doesn't make the belief or feeling itself rational.

Just sayin'
 
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Received

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It sure seems like it reading some of the threads here.

Objectivity is simple: the observer/investigator tries to make his/her self influence the outcome of the observing/investigation/inquiry as little as possible.

In Objectivity: A Very Short Introduction Stephen Gaukroger says, if I recall correctly, that objectivity is a matter of degree. Nothing is purely subjective. Nothing is purely objective. Objectivity is not "the view from nowhere", he says.

Yet, it seems that some people do honestly believe that they have accessed the view from nowhere.

Furthermore, it seems like some people believe that anything short of pure, absolute objectivity is dangerous. I think that that is irrational. Even if pure, absolute objectivity existed it would not mean that subjective = dangerous. If errors, mistakes, etc. a lot of the time are not dangerous, then why would subjectivity be inherently dangerous? I thought that the states of Arkansas and Kentucky have roughly the same population. My research showed that, on the contrary, the population of Arkansas is much smaller than the population of Kentucky. Nobody was harmed.

I believe that Gaukroger puts it this way: we practice objectivity to meet our needs. The degree of objectivity required depends on the circumstances. A good illustration that I have used before is this: the degree of objectivity required for a baseball umpire to call balls and strikes is less than the degree of objectivity required for, oh, a physician to examine a patient. If one umpire calls a pitch a ball while another umpire would call that pitch a strike, it is not a big deal. Hitters and pitchers adjust to each umpire's strike zone. The important thing is that an umpire is being consistent with what is a ball and what is a strike and that the game, therefore, is being called fairly. But we expect--and we need--greater objectivity from medical doctors. If one doctor says you have indigestion and another doctor says you are having a heart attack, something is wrong. The degree of objectivity required depends on the circumstances.

But some people not only seem to make pure, absolute objectivity a universal standard and epistemological utopia, they seem to say that they have actually accessed unmediated objective reality. Apparently that is why they say that A is indisputable and if you do not accept A then you are not a rational person.

Let's assume that we can directly access objective reality. So what? That does not mean that what we learn is useful. Time and energy spent accessing some truth that is trivial or has no immediate application where there is great need could have been spent on addressing need in some effective way.

Maybe I am alone, but I think that we should be focused on our needs, not on trying to realize some mythological epistemological purity at all costs.

Aquinas said something to the effect that reality is always in the mode of the observer, i.e., there's always a mediating effect that prevents accessing the thing-in-itself. Or we can use a more realistic definition of objectivity, such as Kierkegaard's, which means the self accesses phenomena as opposed to his own subjectivity (feelings, thoughts, etc.), which takes into account the mediating effect you've mentioned above.
 
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ananda

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It sure seems like it reading some of the threads here.
Your question begs a more fundamental query: Can anyone really prove that the universe doesn't exist in totality in the mind? Until that question is answered, then perhaps we can begin to examine the so-called "external", objective reality.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Your question begs a more fundamental query: Can anyone really prove that the universe doesn't exist in totality in the mind?

What would you accept as "proof", if not a coherent rational interpretation of life experience involving sight, hearing, etc?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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ananda

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What would you accept as "proof", if not a coherent rational interpretation of life experience involving sight, hearing, etc?


eudaimonia,

Mark
I'm not sure there can be any proof. Even conventional medicine would suggest that we do not directly experience sight, nor hearing, etc. We instead directly experience mental impulses produced as a result of the organs of sight, or hearing, etc.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I'm not sure there can be any proof. Even conventional medicine would suggest that we do not directly experience sight, nor hearing, etc. We instead directly experience mental impulses produced as a result of the organs of sight, or hearing, etc.

I don't think that that is a valid philosophical distinction. If you experience "mental impulses" produced by sense organs, you are experiencing the world through the senses that produce those "mental impulses". There is a system present, and one shouldn't just focus on one part of the system to the exclusion of all else.


eudaimonia,


Mark
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I don't think that that is a valid philosophical distinction. If you experience "mental impulses" produced by sense organs, you are experiencing the world through the senses that produce those "mental impulses". There is a system present, and one shouldn't just focus on one part of the system to the exclusion of all else.
I guess solipsism, or being brain-in-a-jar, or being a computer simulation, or even Berkeleyist idealism, can't be definitely discounted as possibilities, but they lead nowhere; regardless, we must deal with the world as it presents itself, and until we have more information about the nature of reality (which actually seems to be weirder than any of the above), we have little choice but to (provisionally) accept it as it appears. Fortunately, it does seem to be coherent and consistent enough for us to make a decent stab at describing it and predicting its behaviour.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I guess solipsism, or being brain-in-a-jar, or being a computer simulation, or even Berkeleyist idealism, can't be definitely discounted as possibilities, but they lead nowhere; regardless, we must deal with the world as it presents itself, and until we have more information about the nature of reality (which actually seems to be weirder than any of the above), we have little choice but to (provisionally) accept it as it appears. Fortunately, it does seem to be coherent and consistent enough for us to make a decent stab at describing it and predicting its behaviour.

Agreed, until Morpheus offers me the red pill, I'm just not going to take Matrix-style interpretations of human experience seriously. They have no gravitas for me. They are just airy philosophy.

As I see it, we use a coherentist approach to establish that we are human beings living human lives, and that is "proof" enough for me. This basic view properly forms the foundation for any worthwhile philosophy.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Agreed, until Morpheus offers me the red pill, I'm just not going to take Matrix-style interpretations of human experience seriously. They have no gravitas for me. They are just airy philosophy.
I see it as them having no practical relevance; even if such a reality is the case, we must be pragmatic - and deal with it as it presents to us.

As I see it, we use a coherentist approach to establish that we are human beings living human lives, and that is "proof" enough for me. This basic view properly forms the foundation for any worthwhile philosophy.
Agreed.
 
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ananda

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If you experience "mental impulses" produced by sense organs, you are experiencing the world through the senses that produce those "mental impulses".
The connection between "mental impulses" and "the world that produce those mental impulses" is an assumption. I agree that it is a stretch to think otherwise, but solipsism cannot be totally discounted, unfortunately.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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The connection between "mental impulses" and "the world that produce those mental impulses" is an assumption. I agree that it is a stretch to think otherwise, but solipsism cannot be totally discounted, unfortunately.

While it can't be discounted, it should be dismissed. If there's no practical difference between the reality we think exists and some sort of simulation, there's no point in adding it in as a consideration.
 
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