Are All Men The Same?

[gmm4j]

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Are they all the same men, or not?

Are “all” the men who have gone astray, been condemned, and been bound over to disobedience the same “all” men to whom the Lord has laid their iniquity upon himself for, brought life for, and had mercy upon, or is the referent to “all” changing in mid sentence for each of the above tests?

When interpreting, note that a Calvinistic perspective (we, the elect) on Is. 53 does not make sense in light of Rom. 5:18, but the Romans verses clarify the meaning of Is. 53:6. Romans 5:18 is certainly not referring to the “elect only” of whom Adam’s trespass affected. Paul presents a very easily understood parallel. Adam’s sin resulted in condemnation for all men, and Jesus’ work of obedience on the cross brought justification and life for all men. Condemnation for all men is understood as all men without exception. Life for all men should be understood the same way. In order to receive the condemnation of Adam, you must be born of Adam. In order to receive the life of Jesus, you must be born again of the Spirit by faith. This new life has been provided for all men by Jesus’ one act of righteousness.

So, based on these verses Jesus bore the iniquity of all those who have gone astray. Justification and life have been provided for all men born into Adam (conditional upon belief, but good news provision for all), and God has shown mercy toward all wicked and disobedient men (good news for all J).

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[gmm4j]

OP anyone?

 

[stenerson]

He shall see the the fruit of the travail of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Those He dies for by bearing their sins will be justified. They are the "all" that are saved.
He saw the fruit of the travail of His soul and was satisfied.
The Church I grew up in said that if Jesus saw that only one person would accept His sacrifice He would have gone through with it and thought it worthwhile.
Ridiculous!

 

[gmm4j]

Those He dies for by bearing their sins will be justified. They are the "all" that are saved.
He saw the fruit of the travail of His soul and was satisfied.
The Church I grew up in said that if Jesus saw that only one person would accept His sacrifice He would have gone through with it and thought it worthwhile.
Ridiculous!

The "all" that He died for are the same "all" who were bound over to disobedience and under condemnation. Jesus died for "all" of them! That's good news!

 

[Skala]

The "all" that He died for are the same "all" who were bound over to disobedience and under condemnation. Jesus died for "all" of them! That's good news!

He died for his sheep, per his own words.

Not those who are not his sheep. Read John 10.

 

[gmm4j]

He died for his sheep, per his own words.

Not those who are not his sheep. Read John 10.

Of course He died for His sheep and He also died for the sins of the world.

Romans 5:17-18
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:9-15
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Luke 4:18-19
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.

Jesus came to preach good news to those who are poor and in need. He proclaimed freedom for those imprisoned to sin, recovery of sight for those who are spiritually blind, and release for the oppressed. Poor, imprisoned, blind, and oppressed are descriptions of all fallen mankind. Good news, freedom, recovery of sight, and release are available for all of fallen mankind through Christ. The year of the Lord’s favor refers to the year of Jubilee where every fifty years there was no sowing or reaping (Leviticus 25:11-12), all slaves were set free (Leviticus 25:39-54), the land went back to the original owner (Leviticus 27:16-24), and all debts were cancelled.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Luke 2:10-11
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

John 1:3-8
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. 6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

John 6:33
For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 17:20-23
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[ronathanedwards]

result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

So gmm4j, you are a universalist then? Because it was JUSTIFICATION that BRINGS LIFE for ALL. It doesn't say "might" bring life or the "possibility" of justification for all. The parallel is to ADAM. Adams sin BROUGHT death, so unless you understand that "ALL" is speaking of subgroups, you are forced by the context to believe in universalism. There is no middle ground. Either just as ALL inherit sin by Adam- ALL that Christ died for will be justified (which isn't everyone, but the elect [and this was Paul's argument]) or ALL inherit sin by Adam and Christ's work is justification for ALL.... take your pick.

 

[gmm4j]

So gmm4j, you are a universalist then? Because it was JUSTIFICATION that BRINGS LIFE for ALL. It doesn't say "might" bring life or the "possibility" of justification for all. The parallel is to ADAM. Adams sin BROUGHT death, so unless you understand that "ALL" is speaking of subgroups, you are forced by the context to believe in universalism. There is no middle ground. Either just as ALL inherit sin by Adam- ALL that Christ died for will be justified (which isn't everyone, but the elect [and this was Paul's argument]) or ALL inherit sin by Adam and Christ's work is justification for ALL.... take your pick.

My pick is that one act of righteousness brings life to all men who RECEIVE Jesus by faith.

Romans 5:17-18
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who RECEIVE God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

It is available and sufficient for all condemned men born of Adam, and is applied to those who believe.

Are all men condemned?

John 6:33
For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

 

[ronathanedwards]

Then the parallel is the reformed one. Just as Adam's sin brought sin to ALL, Jesus' righteousness brings life to ALL... WHO BELIEVE. Notice the subgroup, it's a substantive, which John uses ALLOT. Therefore, Jesus' death was NOT for everyone, but only for the believing ones. Not everyone believes. Again, Jesus' death and purpose does not fail. Those whom He died for, will ALL be saved.

If you want it to MEAN Jesus died for every single individual in the verse then you either have to believe in universalism, or you have to change the first part of the parallel, that being, Adams sin was for everyone, but death didn't reign for many people, which is an obvious error. Again, you can't have it your way, the parallel doesn't allow it. It is definitely not a proof text for unlimited atonement.

 

[gmm4j]

Just as Adam's sin brought sin to all, yet not all will be condemned, so also Jesus brought Life to all yet many will not receive it. In both cases the difference is faith. Jesus' death was for everyone (availability) and applied to those who believe. And, you are correct that Jesus' death and purpose does not fail. He intended His death to be available to all and efficient to the believer - successful purpose!

 

[ronathanedwards]

He intended His death to be available to all and efficient to the believer - successful purpose!

Where does it say that his death made salvation "possible"? The PURPOSE was to SAVE, "He came to SAVE His people" not put all mankind in a "savable" state. This concept is foreign to the Bible and is forced upon the text for the sake of presupposition. Just as Adam's sin was EFFECTIVE to every person in His group (everyone) so Jesus' act JUSTIFIES (not "might" justify) everyone in His group. Just take it for what is says, Jesus died for and justified those who believe. There is no mention of making every individual "savable" or "justifiable". Paul didn't use an adjective, it's a verb.

I can say I let everyone in to the movies "who had a ticket". This doesn't mean I let every individual that lived into the movies.

You might want to do an in depth study of the work of the trinity in salvation and the individual offices of Christ in salvation. Jesus' purpose was not to make men savable, but it was to SAVE. His office of sacrificial lamb redeems those whom the sacrifice was made. The purpose is to SAVE those whom for He died. His role as a priest is to intercede for those whom He died, His intercessory work is for salvation for those whom He died; the Holy Spirit applies the work that is being interceded for. The father ordains the whole act (before time).

If Jesus died for every individual, then He intercedes for every individual. If everyone is NOT saved, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit FAIL in their purpose, AND you have the father pitted again Jesus' intercession!

The arguments made for universal atonement are not thought out so well, they are myopic and are systematically contradictory.

 

[gmm4j]

Where does it say that his death made salvation "possible"? The PURPOSE was to SAVE, "He came to SAVE His people" not put all mankind in a "savable" state. This concept is foreign to the Bible and is forced upon the text for the sake of presupposition.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

It is not "good" news to most of creation if Jesus did not die for most.

Luke 2:10-11
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

John 17:20-23
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world MAY believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

That gospel that Jesus died for the sins of the world is for the world that the world may believe.

 

[ronathanedwards]

It is not "good" news to most of creation if Jesus did not die for most.

But it is good news for those who believe.

May they also be in us so that the world MAY believe that you have sent me

Doesn't speak of every individual, your are presuming that.

May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Again this doesn't not speak of every individual, you are assuming that.

That gospel that Jesus died for the sins of the world is for the world that the world may believe.

I agree with that statement as it is Biblically understood, but not according to your presuppositional understanding of it.

 

[SolaOne]

ronathan, I think in the post above you say it is good news to those who believe and infer that it is not for those who do not, but the gospel, if it is gospel has to be good news all the time, even for those who do not receive it or it ceases to be good news. If the truth is that Jesus didn't die for most of humanity then that truth is not good news. On the other hand if Jesus died for all of humanity, then that truth is good news always for everyone.

 

[ronathanedwards]

Even for those who don't receive it, it is inherently good news. The message is going out to all mankind, no one knows who the elect are, the message is good news and if they believe it, they will be saved. If they reject it, it was given to them AS good news. Spiritually, from God's point of view, He knows who the elect are, and who isn't. The news is still good even if God knows they will not receive it.

To say the news is ONLY good if one has been given the same exact grace in order to receive it is not valid. God is free to regenerate whomever He wishes. Those who don't receive it, do so in their reality, as being able to receive it or not, and they do what their heart desires, that is, to NOT obey the good news.

 

[Skala]

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Universalism is true, yay!!!

 

[Skala]

Skala is a universalist and excited about it!

Really Skala, Universalism is not orthodox and is a very dangerous theology. I advise you to denounce it. If you want to talk more about this false teaching and your adherence to it, please inbox me.

Concerned for your soul,
TrustinHim2

Oh, I was simply arriving at the logical conclusion of the way you are (mis)interpreting Rom 11:32.

 

[Skala]

Skala, Universalism is not the logical conclusion. It is not true, it is heretical. If you feel you need to express your universalist views, then the forum rules require to do so under Unorthodox Theology. Please do not do it here. My invitation is still open if you want to discuss orthodoxy.

Concerned for your soul,
TrustinHim2

I am not a universalist, I was being sarcastic.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The power and authority remains with God and His Son as to who receive mercy and who do not. The point Paul makes is the mercy is up to the JUDGE, as it is in a courtroom also.

Luke 10

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son,

and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

The 'knowing God' is also determined by the Son as well as the Father, John 6, 8, 17. This passage is very deterministic and authoritative in scope. They KNOW Him in a saving faith way, if Jesus reveals the Father, they do not know God if Jesus does not WILL to reveal the Father to that person. I take this quite literally, and also personally as it says 'no one knows God' until He is revealed actively, deliberately, personally.

 

[sdowney717]

As far as the sheep. Peter has tremendous message of grace and election all through his letters.

Peter here in 1 Peter 2 is addressing those who are Elect, the beloved friends, that is those who believe in Jesus and have saving faith, those Beloved God foreknew. 1 Peter 1

Peter explicitly says this, and Peter is talking only to the beloved friends, who are the sheep.

Jesus told Peter to FEED MY SHEEP.
1 Peter 2

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

The LORD's sheep you were and are. Gone astray, you were lost, but now have been brought back to God by Christ. Peter is addressing Jesus's sheep, not the broad wide world. His death was for His sheep and Peter proves it in this chapter .

who Himself bore OUR sins in His own body on the tree,
that WE, having died to sins, might live for righteousness


Who are the WE and the OUR? They are the elect, not the broad wide world.
1 Peter 2

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Appointed! They were appointed to stumble. That is their destiny.
NIV

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

But for Jesus's sheep,

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

If you're not elect, then Peter says your appointed to stumble over Christ, the rock, which means your destiny is hell.