the Prince to Come

RandyPNW · May 21, 2024

The "prince to come." I've had a go at trying to interpret the "70 Weeks of Daniel" for about 50 years now.

And I've tried to correct my errors with every legitimate argument that has come to challenge my positions. Here is how I see things today, after many views and many corrections.

Probably central to my view are a few major points.
1) The prophecy concerns the coming to fruition of God's Covenant, as it relates to Temple Worship.
2) The Prophecy is a period of 70 Weeks of Years that is completed with a Half Week in which Christ is cut off, leaving Temple offerings delegitimized.
3) The completion of the 70 Weeks is essentially an indictment against Israel, leading to the destruction of the Temple after the completion of the 70 Weeks.
4) The "prince to come" is the generic Roman ruler who determines to do things that from God's point of view confirms His promised covenant with Israel. In other words, this confirmation of God's covenant is not the prince's determined effort, but rather, the indirect effect of what he determines to do.

Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks. Daniel is shown a 70 Weeks of years period of time, encompassing the time from 457 BC to approx. 30 AD. The 70th Week is cut short into a half Week. The focus of this period has to do with the restoration of the Temple worship from the time of King Artaxerxes up until the time the Temple is completely destroyed by the Roman prince. But this 70 Weeks period also is designed to lead up to Messiah, who brings about God's Covenant.

So we are told about an initial 7 Weeks period of time, 49 years, in which the Temple worship is fully restored and Jerusalem built as an independently-run city. Ezra and Nehemiah contributed to this process. Then there is a long expanse of time up until the final Week, the 70th Week, which stops short of a full Week by the death of Messiah. This completes the promised Covenant of God. The old Temple is then destroyed, after Christ, the new Temple, has been established in its place.

We are told that the people of a prince to come will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. This prince, the Roman ruler, indirectly fulfills the New Covenant of Christ by putting him to death. He cuts Christ off after half the 70th Week, indirectly confirming God's Covenant to save Israel despite their waywardness. He signals the termination of Temple offerings by destroying the Messiah himself, for whom these offerings have been given. And he finishes the job by destroying the Temple itself in 70 AD.

The "prince to come," who was the Roman ruler, did not intend to fulfill biblical prophecy, but in effect that is what he did. By having Christ killed at the end of his 3.5 year ministry he in effect "confirmed God's Covenant of atonement with Israel."

He in effect put an end to Israel's offerings to God inasmuch as the God to whom they were offering these things was rejected at the cross. And the Roman ruler merely confirmed this rejection by accommodating their request to have Christ put to death.

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.... 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ [That is, the Roman ruler will cause God's Covenant to complete the 70 Weeks.] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. [That is, the Roman ruler will end Israel's Temple offerings by having Christ cut off.] And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it. [That is, the Roman ruler will set up his people as an army to lay siege to Jerusalem, destroying the temple.]

This is just something for you to consider....

keras · May 21, 2024

I disagree that the Seventieth 'week' is past.
Daniel 12 and Revelation make it clear that there will be a 3 1/2 year period in the end times, the second half of the final seven years before Jesus Returns. I view the first half as peaceful, therefore; not mentioned.

The seventy weeks were revealed to Daniel in the following words: “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.” (Daniel 9:24)

First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa', H7620 in Strong’s. This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. And in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate meaning of the Hebrew words used here.

Daniel 9:25 was told: Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the command until Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order; we cannot be certain as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read: And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And until the end of the war, desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26
Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed, in 70 - 135 AD.

From history we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. Note; that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.
The last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks have already passed. So this week has to be the seventieth one.

We read: Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Iis poured out on the desolate. Daniel 9:27
Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read: Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, who rule this people who are in Jerusalem, Because you have said: ‘We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.’ Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.
Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read: On a lofty and high mountain You have set your bed; even there you went up to offer sacrifice. Also behind the doors and their posts You have set up your remembrance; For you have uncovered yourself to those other than Me, And have gone up to them; You have enlarged your bed and made a covenant with them; You have loved their bed, Where you saw their nudity. You went to the king with ointment, and increased your perfumes; You sent your messengers far off, and even descended to Sheol.”

So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant [treaty] that God will not allow to be fulfilled. And Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this peace treaty is mentioned.
Ref; James Morris

RandyPNW · May 21, 2024

keras said:
I disagree that the Seventieth 'week' is past.
Daniel 12 and Revelation make it clear that there will be a 3 1/2 year period in the end times, the second half of the final seven years before Jesus Returns. I view the first half as peaceful, therefore; not mentioned.

It's okay that we disagree. I've also held to some of what you say here. The problem I have with it is that *nowhere* are we told there are two distinct periods of 3.5 years--we're only told that Christ is cut off in the midst of a 7 year period.

The idea that the 70th Week, or part of it, is future comes from Irenaeus, whose extreme minority view took that tack. And so, his disciple Hippolytus took the same approach. Other than these, and perhaps one other, all the church fathers appear to take the position that the 70 Weeks prophecy was completed at the cross, and at the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

keras said:
The seventy weeks were revealed to Daniel in the following words: “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.” (Daniel 9:24)

First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa', H7620 in Strong’s. This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. And in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate meaning of the Hebrew words used here.

Yes, as I said, I take the position that the 70 Weeks indicated 70 Weeks of *years.* I believe that the 6 items mentioned in Dan 9.24 were all fulfilled in Jesus' generation.

His death on the cross completed Israel's transgression, for which they've now experienced an entire age of punishment.

Israel's sin in Israel was terminated by their removal from the land in the great Jewish Diaspora.

However, Jesus did provided for their ultimate reconciliation when they turn to him for forgiveness.

Jesus had become the source of their eternal righteousness if they would but return to him.

He had completed the prophecy of eternal redemption, promised by the Prophets to Israel.

Jesus has become the final temple, anointed for our access to God on an eternal basis.

keras said:
Daniel 9:25 was told: Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the command until Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order; we cannot be certain as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

Yes, from Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC to the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry was 69 Weeks of years. This is a fact of history.

Cyrus issued the initial decree to restore the temple and Jerusalem, but in his time and in the time of succeeding kings only the Temple was rebuilt. The Temple was not finally made proper until the time following Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC, who confirmed Cyrus' decree to restore both the Temple and Jerusalem. And in his time the work to restore the city of Jerusalem took place.

keras said:
But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read: And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And until the end of the war, desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26
Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed, in 70 - 135 AD.

Exactly.

keras said:
From history we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. Note; that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

I completely deny that there is any insinuation or claim that the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed *in the same week!* We are simply told that the prince, which I believe to be a Roman ruler, would arise and charge his people, an army, with destroying the Jewish Temple and the city of Jerusalem.

This is the idea laid out before greater explanation is given. Repeating the same story twice, if even in different ways, is a very prominent characteristic of Jewish Scriptures. Dan 9.26 explains the basic outline, and vs. 27 adds more detail.

There is no supposed "break" in continuity. Stating, by way of explanation, that the Messiah is cut off before this destruction of the Temple is simply an explanation as to why this takes place.

Israel is being judged for rejecting their Messiah! There is no break here.

Messiah comes to provide atonement for the people and to complete Messianic prophecy of Israel's redemption. But the people of Israel have to be judged later, for rejecting this Gospel message. Jesus said it would take a "generation" for it to happen in his Olivet Discourse.

Matt 24.34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

keras said:
The last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks have already passed. So this week has to be the seventieth one.

It does not require being noted as the 70th Week for the very reason you give. It is the only Week remaining after the 69 Weeks! If it is treated differently than the others Weeks it is not because of a break in continuity. If the 70th Week is not connected with the previous 69 Weeks, then it is not part of that time period at all!

Can you imagine I promise to get back with you in 15 minutes, but then show up 16 weeks later? When you ask why I didn't show up in 15 minutes I simply explain that there is a huge gap between the 14th and 15th minutes!

keras said:
We read: Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Iis poured out on the desolate. Daniel 9:27
Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

Here you're dealing with somebody else's view--not mine. And that's okay as long as you know it's not what I believe.

I don't believe Jesus is the one who "confirms a covenant." I used to believe that.

Rather, I believe it is the Roman prince who confirms the covenant by putting Christ to death. He is unwittingly fulfilling prophecy by judging Christ as worthy of death. Christ is taking upon himself the sins of the world, let alone the sins of Israel or the sins of the Romans.

keras said:
But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read: Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, who rule this people who are in Jerusalem, Because you have said: ‘We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.’ Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

A covenant with death is not relevant.

keras said:
Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read: On a lofty and high mountain You have set your bed; even there you went up to offer sacrifice. Also behind the doors and their posts You have set up your remembrance; For you have uncovered yourself to those other than Me, And have gone up to them; You have enlarged your bed and made a covenant with them; You have loved their bed, Where you saw their nudity. You went to the king with ointment, and increased your perfumes; You sent your messengers far off, and even descended to Sheol.”

A covenant Israel makes with evil is not relevant, in my opinion. The covenant being spoken of in Dan 9 is the covenant God promised Israel through Abraham. Dan 9.24 explains how this covenant comes to pass, through Israel's sin and through Christ's atonement. Israel's sin becomes fully manifest, is judged, and ultimately leads to Israel's restoration. My position.

Thanks for speaking your mind. It's an interesting but complex passage.

keras · May 21, 2024

RandyPNW said:
The problem I have with it is that *nowhere* are we told there are two distinct periods of 3.5 years--we're only told that Christ is cut off in the midst of a 7 year period.

Daniel 9:27 makes it clear that the final 7 year period is divided into 2 halves.
Christ is 'cut off', at the point of completion of the 69 weeks, that is 483 years after the Prophecy commenced.

The fact alone of there being no definitive seven year point after Jesus was killed and resurrected, is sufficient to place that final period in the end times, to the last 7 years before the glorious Return. Where it fits with the Prophesies of Revelation.

RandyPNW said:
A covenant with death is not relevant.

The agreement; as described in Daniel 9:27 is not a covenant as such. Parties do not make terminating Covenants. They do make fixed term treaties and the one which will be made between the peoples in the holy Land and the Leader of the rest of the world, will be viewed by God, as a serious violation of His relationship with the holy peoples. Daniel 11:32 describes it correctly.

RandyPNW · May 21, 2024

keras said:
Daniel 9:27 makes it clear that the final 7 year period is divided into 2 halves.
Christ is 'cut off', at the point of completion of the 69 weeks, that is 483 years after the Prophecy commenced.

The fact alone of there being no definitive seven year point after Jesus was killed and resurrected, is sufficient to place that final period in the end times, to the last 7 years before the glorious Return. Where it fits with the Prophesies of Revelation.

That is not exegesis--that is eisegesis. It's logical, but not what Scripture is actually saying.

Where, for example, is it explicitly said that there are two separate halves of the 70th Week that have to be fulfilled in the endtimes? Nowhere!

So I won't speak for the Holy Spirit. You can guess, or you can speculate. But you can't interpret for the Holy Spirit unless you are exercising the gift of interpretation.

To teach is to follow the word of God. To prophecy or to interpret tongues is something else altogether.

keras said:
The agreement; as described in Daniel 9:27 is not a covenant as such. Parties do not make terminating Covenants. They do make fixed term treaties and the one which will be made between the peoples in the holy Land and the Leader of the rest of the world, will be viewed by God, as a serious violation of His relationship with the holy peoples. Daniel 11:32 describes it correctly.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? I'm talking about God's Covenant with Israel. And I think it is indeed speaking of such. The entire message from the angel to Daniel has to do with God keeping His covenant with Israel, under conditions that do not make it look likely.

Dan 9.4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed: “Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments."

The angel came to answer this prayer.

keras · May 22, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Where, for example, is it explicitly said that there are two separate halves of the 70th Week that have to be fulfilled in the endtimes?

Daniel 9:27 says the final 7 years will come after the death and resurrection of Jesus and that period will be divided into 2 halves.

Nothing immediately following that, in the Bible or in history fits with what is prophesied; in 3 1/2 years, or in 7 years later. It simply did not happen then. It refers to still unfulfilled things and events.

RandyPNW said:
I'm talking about God's Covenant with Israel.

But quite obviously; Daniel 9:27, is not.
It is prophesying about a future agreement with many people and a leader, who is seen in Revelation 13 and referred to as the 'beast'.

RandyPNW said:
To teach is to follow the word of God

That is what I do.
I refute those who attempt to make the Prophesies fit in the past. The preterist belief makes a joke out of Revelation.

Douggg · May 23, 2024

RandyPNW said:
He in effect put an end to Israel's offerings to God inasmuch as the God to whom they were offering these things was rejected at the cross. And the Roman ruler merely confirmed this rejection by accommodating their request to have Christ put to death.

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.... 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ [That is, the Roman ruler will cause God's Covenant to complete the 70 Weeks.] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. [That is, the Roman ruler will end Israel's Temple offerings by having Christ cut off.] And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it. [That is, the Roman ruler will set up his people as an army to lay siege to Jerusalem, destroying the temple.]

Hi Randy, I respectfully disagree.

The prince who shall come will be of the Roman Empire people, I agree.

But the covenant is referring to the Mt. Sinai covenant that has a 7 year stipulation on it as requred by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13,

Titus did not end the daily sacrifice and offering. Historically those were not stopped until 70 ad, long after Titus.

The 7 year 70th week is end times, The prince that shall come will be the end times little horn person.

RandyPNW · May 23, 2024

Douggg said:
Hi Randy, I respectfully disagree.

The prince who shall come will be of the Roman Empire people, I agree.

But the covenant is referring to the Mt. Sinai covenant that has a 7 year stipulation on it as requred by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13,

Titus did not end the daily sacrifice and offering. Historically those were not stopped until 70 ad, long after Titus.

The 7 year 70th week is end times, The prince that shall come will be the end times little horn person.

Disagreement is fine because you have good arguments. I do have concerns about how the author intended the cessation of animal sacrifices to be understood.

My present position is that putting Jesus to death indirectly brought an end to the validity of animal sacrifice entirely. Putting the Messiah to death delegitimized Temple worship entirely, which was dedicated to the coming and work of Messiah. So indirectly, the Roman governor put to "death" animal sacrifice and Temple offering.

I do understand that this sounds difficult and perhaps strained. It is simply the best explanation I have. The "prince to come" I've tried to apply to Christ, and it just didn't work for me. So how could the Prince to come have represented...

1) people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple?
2) confirm a covenant with many for one Week?
3) put an end to Temple atonement?
4) at the temple set up an AoD until it is destroyed?

Dan 9.25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. (1) The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ (2) In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. (3) And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it. (4)

The only way I could read the Prince to Come as the Roman ruler would be to see...
1) his people as an army, which is exactly how Jesus put it in Luke 21.20. Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies.
2) he would indirectly confirm God's covenant with the Jewish People to provide a sacrifice of atonement through Christ's death
3) invalidate Temple atonement by putting Christ to death in the middle of his ministry
4) he would invade Jerusalem to destroy the temple by setting a military siege against it until eventually it is destroyed

Spiritual Jew · May 24, 2024

Douggg said:
Hi Randy, I respectfully disagree.

The prince who shall come will be of the Roman Empire people, I agree.

But the covenant is referring to the Mt. Sinai covenant that has a 7 year stipulation on it as requred by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13,

Titus did not end the daily sacrifice and offering.

Of course he didn't. Jesus did.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’” 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Daniel 9:27 is referring back to the reference to the Messiah and has to do with Jesus effectually putting an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings by way of His death which established the new covenant. It's a great and powerful prophecy foretelling what our Great God and Savior would accomplish by way of His great sacrifice.

Oseas · May 25, 2024

RandyPNW said:
I do understand that this sounds difficult and perhaps strained. It is simply the best explanation I have. The "prince to come" I've tried to apply to Christ, and it just didn't work for me. So how could the Prince to come have represented...
1) people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple?
2) confirm a covenant with many for one Week?
3) put an end to Temple atonement?
4) at the temple set up an AoD until it is destroyed?

Comment on Daniel 9:26-27 for your meditation:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (crucified), but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (the esoteric and kabbalistic false messiah-John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11) shall DESTROY the CITY (Jerusalem) and the
SANCTUARY->Revelation 13:2->the dragon, the esoteric false messiah of Judaism-Revelation 13:11<-> gave(will give) him (will give to the Beast of sea-ruler of Catholicism) his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority.; and the END thereof shall be with a flood(Luke 21:24;Revelation 11:2;Revelation 12:15?), and unto the END of the WAR(Revelation 16:13-15) desolations are determined.

27 And he (the prince that shall come-Ezekiel 21:25, John 5:43-47; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(covenant with the whole religious structures of the RCC-Judaism and Catholicism-Revelation 13:2): and in the midst of the week(Revelation 13:5) he- the profane wicked prince of Israel, the false messiah- shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(2Thessalonians 2:6-9), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation(Revelation 16:13-15), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

GOD bless and get ready

RandyPNW · May 25, 2024

Oseas said:
Comment on Daniel 9:26-27 for your meditation:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (crucified), but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (the esoteric and kabbalistic false messiah-John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11) shall DESTROY the CITY (Jerusalem) and the
SANCTUARY->Revelation 13:2->the dragon, the esoteric false messiah of Judaism-Revelation 13:11<-> gave(will give) him (will give to the Beast of sea-ruler of Catholicism) his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority.; and the END thereof shall be with a flood(Luke 21:24;Revelation 11:2;Revelation 12:15?), and unto the END of the WAR(Revelation 16:13-15) desolations are determined.

27 And he (the prince that shall come-Ezekiel 21:25, John 5:43-47; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(covenant with the whole religious structures of the RCC-Judaism and Catholicism-Revelation 13:2): and in the midst of the week(Revelation 13:5) he- the profane wicked prince of Israel, the false messiah- shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(2Thessalonians 2:6-9), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation(Revelation 16:13-15), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

GOD bless and get ready

Yes, that is a position I many years ago used to consider, but I now realize that it was a position heavily influenced by Dispensationalism, and by the minority view of Irenaeus and Hippolytus. The mainstream view of the Early Church Fathers and later was that this passage spoke of 70 AD, and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that took place at that time.

After all, Daniel is being shown a period of time that began in about 457 BC. It could hardly lead up to our own day! 486.5 years would take one to the time Christ was cut off in approx. 30 AD. And then, Jesus said it would be his own generation that witnesses the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman armies, destroy the Temple and Jerusalem.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near... 22 There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people... 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Put another way...

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel... 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again... 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Please note that this "Great Tribulation," spoken of by Jesus, referred to the punishment of the Jewish People, leading to a dispersion among the nations that is to last until the end of the age. That could not be true at the end of this age, well after the Jewish Diaspora is nearly completed.

And this Great Tribulation, the Jewish Punishment, would be precipitated by the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple, witnessed by some of Jesus' disciples. This could not take place at the end of the age.

In fact, Jesus called it their "redemption," which they would themselves witness. What they saw was their deliverance directed from heaven, leading them to escape to the nearby hills. Some think this referred to Jesus' Coming, but in context, it is something Jesus' disciples would see at the time they flee from the Roman armies.

I've held to several views, and I've gone back to something closer to the historic, traditional view. Futurism tends to want even prophecies fulfilled in history to be about the future so that predictions can be made in our own time. That's a questionable approach to me.

Oseas · May 26, 2024

RandyPNW said:
Yes, that is a position I many years ago used to consider, but I now realize that it was a position heavily influenced by Dispensationalism, and by the minority view of Irenaeus and Hippolytus. The mainstream view of the Early Church Fathers and later was that this passage spoke of 70 AD, and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that took place at that time.

After all, Daniel is being shown a period of time that began in about 457 BC. It could hardly lead up to our own day! 486.5 years would take one to the time Christ was cut off in approx. 30 AD. And then, Jesus said it would be his own generation that witnesses the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman armies, destroy the Temple and Jerusalem.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near... 22 There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people... 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand? According to your own testimony above, first you believed in interpretations of demons about the Word of GOD, i.e. you believed in the satanic theories of the defuncts beatified by the Beast of sea, ruler of the Roman Catholic Church, which rides upon the Beast, no surprise because, as you know, even Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light(the light is the Word of GOD), therefore it is no great thing if his ministers -MINISTERS OF SATAN, like Irenaeus and Hippolytus, beatified by the Beast of sea, also be transformed as the Ministers of righteousness; whose END (the hell's fire-Revelation 19:20) shall be according to their idolater works.

That said, the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the theories of demons in which you believed before, "the demons(as Ministers of Satan)also believe that there is one GOD-James 2:19, and Satan is wiser than Daniel, there is no secret that they can hide from him-Ezekiel 28:3, this is the reason by which he deceives the whole world-Revelation 12:9- , but now, from now on, he will be cast down into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more.

RandyPNW said:
Put another way...

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel... 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again... 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Please note that this "Great Tribulation," spoken of by Jesus, referred to the punishment of the Jewish People, leading to a dispersion among the nations that is to last until the end of the age. That could not be true at the end of this age, well after the Jewish Diaspora is nearly completed.
And this Great Tribulation, the Jewish Punishment, would be precipitated by the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple, witnessed by some of Jesus' disciples. This could not take place at the end of the age.

Of course the Great Tribulation takes place now in the end of the age, who causes the Great Tribulation is the archangel Michael who comes before JESUS-1Thessalonians 4:16-, and there will be resurrection, in LITERAL fulfillment of Daniel 12:1-3 and 10-12:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

RandyPNW said:
In fact, Jesus called it their "redemption," which they would themselves witness. What they saw was their deliverance directed from heaven, leading them to escape to the nearby hills. Some think this referred to Jesus' Coming, but in context, it is something Jesus' disciples would see at the time they flee from the Roman armies.

Here's what JESUS said: Matthew 24:15- When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) The battle is between GOD X Satan, The message of the Lord JESUS is linked to the 1Thes. 4:16, among other biblical references, the Trumpet shall sound by Michael, and there will be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except these days (the current days) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the ELECT's sake these days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ (John 5:43-47 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:11-12 and Revelation 13:11), or there; believe it not.

RandyPNW said:
I've held to several views, and I've gone back to something closer to the historic, traditional view. Futurism tends to want even prophecies fulfilled in history to be about the future so that predictions can be made in our own time. That's a questionable approach to me.

I see. Terrible. Very terrible.
1Timothy 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto FABLES.

Take care

1John 5:7 - There are three that bear record -TESTIFY-in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8), the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.

RandyPNW · May 26, 2024

Oseas said:
According to your own testimony above, first you believed in interpretations of demons about the Word of GOD

Slander. I never said any such thing. If this is your way of discussing issues among Christians, you need to do some personal analysis.

Of course, you may think I'm somebody else, or confuse me with somebody else. You certainly don't have things right.

the Prince to Come

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads