Born of WATER and the Spirit

Good morning,

tonychanyt said:

3. Water refers to natural watery birth or amniotic sac breaking............

water || human flesh
Spirit || human spirit

Because of the immediate context and parallelisms, I put more weight on #3.

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That would appear to be the way Nicodemus understood it, since he asked Jesus how a person could re-enter the womb. The word "again," or "anew," also implies the person has already been born once.

It's worth noting the accurate translation of "gennethe anothen" is not "born again," but "born from above," and the translations that render anothen (BLB, ASV, ERV, WEB) correctly all add "anew." There is no "again" or "anew" in the Greek.

Josheb said:

Good morning,

That would appear to be the way Nicodemus understood it, since he asked Jesus how a person could re-enter the womb. The word "again," or "anew," also implies the person has already been born once.

It's worth noting the accurate translation of "gennethe anothen" is not "born again," but "born from above," and the translations that render anothen (BLB, ASV, ERV, WEB) correctly all add "anew." There is no "again" or "anew" in the Greek.

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The Holy City, New Jerusalem, comes from above. It also has a stream of running water beneath it where the individual can wash his robes so he can enter the Kingdom.

tonychanyt said:

But these are not the immediate context.

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Wouldn't the first context be the immediate context? Or what do you mean by that?

jonojim1337 said:

The Holy City, New Jerusalem, comes from above. It also has a stream of running water beneath it where the individual can wash his robes so he can enter the Kingdom.

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You have made some goo and correct observations about water's mentions in the Bible but I'm siding with @tonychanyt this time: these are not directly related to John 3:5. I did not mention this in Post #3 but there is also a parallel provided for us in verse 6; flesh and Spirit. So being born of water and of Spirit is compared to the flesh giving birth to flesh and the Spirit giving birth to spirit.

If we were going to examine the archetypal use of water, such as that mentioned at creation, the flood, Meribah, etc. then we would want to include the human birthing process established in Genesis. It comes after the mentions of water in the first five days and before the flood. I am also surprised the cleansing rituals were not mentioned. Throughout human history water has been seen and used as symbolic of cleansing and change. It is also used, on occasion, to indicate judgment and destruction. Fire is the reverse; it's meaning is typically that of destruction and judgment but on occasion it is about cleansing and change. That is not limited to the Bible.

Later in the Bible, in the epistolary, water is again associated with the Spirit and distinctions are made. Peter asserts the waters in the flood is a symbol, a symbol of baptism that now saves us (whereas previously, in the Law, washing and baptism saved no one) is not about removal of (physical) dirty, but the pledge of a clear conscience and that occurs by the resurrection. In other words, through the newer revelation given to Peter on that occasion, God has revealed to us a connection between the flood and Calvary's grave we would never have understood on our own. The flood's waters are symbolic of the resurrection. Huh. Who'd have thought? God, of course.

So, it is possible Jesus was referring to the flood since Peter explains the flood connection to Spiritual life in Christ but that explanation is going to be a problem for both the basic principles of exegesis and Occam's Razor. The more likely, the most exegetical given the content of the immediately surrounding text, and the simplest explanation is the birthing process.


Keep in mind, for what it's worth, Tony and I do not often agree. On this occasion I think the op correct and it is good and just to commend it. I'd like the point discussed further so that it is applied to our lives today in meaningful ways, but Tony does do much of that and he readily acknowledges that. Any discussions of this op that ensue will be fostered by those responding to the op-replies, not the op (so don't expect Tony to engage much). I am somewhat curious why a post you made in another thread was used here and why this op was not part of the earlier thread. I cannot see that anything here would not have fit there.

At any rate, your observations are good and commendable but, as far as the water of John 3:5 goes, I think the op correct; the water in reference is about physical or fleshly birth. That juxtaposition between flesh and Spirit runs through the entirety of scripture.

tonychanyt said:

What is born of water?

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The answer is way more profound than most people realize.

tonychanyt said:

There are at least 3 interpretations:

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Unfortunately, each of the three you presented have issues, causing me to reject them all.

tonychanyt said:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

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You are on the right track with those verses you posted. Obviously, it takes more than taking a shower to be truly 'cleansed', as in to be free from sin.

Let us review the Key verse...

Ezekiel 36:26
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

• 'New Spirit' aligns with 'Born of Spirit'.
• 'New Heart' aligns with 'Born of Water'. <-- There is your Key.

The Heart in Scripture represents the 'Tables of the Heart' where something is 'written'...

2 Corinthians 3:3
"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."

What is it that is written in the Heart?

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

The Law is written. In other words, the phrase 'Tables of the Heart' is Bible's way of saying DNA or Genome. Therefore, being Born of Water has to do with the Heart being re-written with a new or updated Genome.

What does Water ultimately symbolize in the Bible?

Job 38:28 (New International Version)
"Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew?"

The Father sends the Rain to do what? To help FERTILIZE the plants and RESURRECT the Seed. He sends the Rain to the just and unjust...

Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Nitrogen, the Seventh Element, is used for fertilizer. The Stone with Seven Eyes represents a Nitrogen Base.

tonychanyt said:

2. Water refers to water baptism. John 1:

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Unfortunately, this makes Water Baptism a type of 'works' necessary for Salvation. I reject it on that and other grounds that I will not get into.

tonychanyt said:

3. Water refers to natural watery birth or amniotic sac breaking (Smith's Bible Commentary, Dr. Constable's Expository Notes). John 3:

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You are getting really close! There is another 'Water' that is involved in the baby making process...

Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Yes, we are talking about Sperm (Seed) and Seminal Fluid (Water/Rain). It is euphemism.

Jesus was the 'Rock' that the 'Waters' came from...

1 Corinthians 10:4
"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

What does 'Rock' or 'Stone' mean in Scripture?

Leviticus 21:20
"Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;"

• Stones = Testicles

Leviticus 21:20 (New International Version)
"or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles."

We must be Born Again from the Rock!

Isaiah 51:1-2
"Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."

Do you see it? Abraham's 'Rock' i.e., his 'Testicles' is where the Seed and LIVING WATERS comes from that we must be Born Again from.

There is an opposite...

The Harlot 'sits on many Waters'. In other words, she procreates with Seminal Fluid from many 'Fathers'...

Revelation 17:1
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:"

The Waters are children in the Seminal Fluid that are about to be conceived...

Revelation 17:15
"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

The Serpent, as a picture of the Male Phallus, casts a flood of sperm at the Moon (Ovum)...

Revelation 12:15
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

What is the Flood?

2 Samuel 22:5
"When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid"

The Waters are 'ungodly men'.

Anyhow, I will be blunt:

Just as the Earthly Father waters the Earthly Womb with Earthly sperm, the Father in Heaven waters the Heavenly Womb with Heavenly sperm.

The Bible uses plants, rivers, trees, seeds, etc. to convey this message. Remember, Mary did not become pregnant with Earthly sperm. Mary became pregnant with the Heavenly sperm of the Father, in other words, from His Waters.

The One on the throne (Father) and Lamb (Seed of the Father) represent the Male Generative Principle that sends 'Waters' (Seminal Fluid) to 'Fertilize' the Tree of Life (Ovary)...


I am presenting the Meat of the Word, which is EUPHEMISM (Adult Education). Most Christians are still on the Milk.

Jesus is the Bread that RAINED down...

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

One more related verse...

1 John 5:8
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Note that Spirit and Water are two different things!

Born of the Trinty:

• Spirit
• Water
• Blood

Jesus came by Water *and* Blood *and* Spirit...

1 John 5:6
“This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.”

OK, that is enough for now. Have a good day everyone.

I almost forgot...

Where is Jesus now? In Paradise...

Luke 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Where is Paradise? Abraham's Bosom...


To be absent from the Body is to be present with the LORD in Abraham's Bosom.

Jesus is in the Bosom/Heart of the Father...

John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The Tables of the Heart is where the Seed and WATERS originate from!

Revelation 22:1
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

The Groom waits for his Bride so he can consummate the marriage by sending his Waters to the Tree to FERTILIZE it.


The Ark is where Waters may be found...

Revelation 11:19
"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

You know? Thunder, Lightning... RAIN?


Come on Christians. Wake up!

tonychanyt said:

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:


What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

2. Water refers to water baptism. John 1:


Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth or amniotic sac breaking (Smith's Bible Commentary, Dr. Constable's Expository Notes). John 3:


water || human flesh
Spirit || human spirit

Because of the immediate context and parallelisms, I put more weight on #3.

See also What does it mean to be born again?.

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5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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Spirit is the Holy Spirit

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:5, 6, RSV). Paul affirms that without the working of the Holy Spirit, we cannot experience regeneration and renewal (Titus 3:5). Indeed, as we are led by the Spirit of God, we become the children of God (Rom. 8:14).

When you look at the lexicon (John 3:5) there is only one spirit mentioned ... THE (specific) Holy Spirit

There isn't reference to a second spirit (ie Spirit is spirit). what bible are you quoting?

In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels water with being born out of a mother’s womb and with flesh based on the answer of Nicodemus to Jesus. Simply stated in that case, two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

tonychanyt said:

Can you quote my words where I asserted a second spirit?

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5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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