Scapegoat-Adventist website: "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous"

Qubit

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I try to keep up with understanding various understandings. Would I be correct to assume that you believe that the Actual Lake of Fire is a sort of "Purgatory" that people receive their due punishment within, until they are reconciled, at which point they are then "saved"?

Hi @Grip Docility . Great question. I used to be Catholic.

Here is what I believe the Lake of Fire is all about...


I believe the Old Testament Law is way more literal than most realize...

Leviticus 24:20
"Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again."


Folks often forget to view the Day of Atonement through the lens of the hard-core Law requirements. I believe it extends to the next life.

Note that the Brazen Altar is a foreshadow of the Lake of Fire. Things that are burned there need to be reconciled with the concept of the Second Death.

Here is an interesting verse...

New Living Translation
"Yet I will bring disaster upon you, and there will be much weeping and sorrow. For Jerusalem will become what her name Ariel means— an altar covered with blood."


Jerusalem is where Gehenna is. See the connection?

Those that are redeemed will 'pass through the fire' and come out underneath it...

Revelation 6:9
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"


See? They passed the Trial by Fire.

If we wish to go outside of the Bible, we can look at the Book of Enoch to see what Azazel is all about...

The Book of Enoch brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels, located on Mount Hermon, a gathering-place of the demons of old.

Here, Azazel is one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time preceding the Flood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of mail, and taught women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and painting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of witchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity until at last he was, at Yahweh's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and chained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Dudael (= Beth Ḥadudo), where he is to abide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment, when he will be cast into the fire to be consumed forever.


Look at the last line. Azazel represents those thrown into the Lake of Fire. He is a leader, which reminds me of Lucifer and how he is described as a Man that will be thrown into Hell...

Isaiah 14:16-19
"They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."


Thus, we have the Old Serpent (Devil, Satan) and his minions (represented by the Goat) thrown into the Lake of Fire...

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."


Note that a Serpent and a Goat are two separate entities.
 
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Grip Docility

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Hi @Grip Docility . Great question. I used to be Catholic.

Here is what I believe the Lake of Fire is all about...


I believe the Old Testament Law is way more literal than most realize...

Leviticus 24:20
"Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again."


Folks often forget to view the Day of Atonement through the lens of the hard-core Law requirements. I believe it extends to the next life.

Note that the Brazen Altar is a foreshadow of the Lake of Fire. Things that are burned there need to be reconciled with the concept of the Second Death.

Here is an interesting verse...

New Living Translation
"Yet I will bring disaster upon you, and there will be much weeping and sorrow. For Jerusalem will become what her name Ariel means— an altar covered with blood."


Jerusalem is where Gehenna is. See the connection?

Those that are redeemed will 'pass through the fire' and come out underneath it...

Revelation 6:9
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"


See? They passed the Trial by Fire.

If we wish to go outside of the Bible, we can look at the Book of Enoch to see what Azazel is all about...

The Book of Enoch brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels, located on Mount Hermon, a gathering-place of the demons of old.

Here, Azazel is one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time preceding the Flood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of mail, and taught women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and painting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of witchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity until at last he was, at Yahweh's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and chained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Dudael (= Beth Ḥadudo), where he is to abide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment, when he will be cast into the fire to be consumed forever.


Look at the last line. Azazel represents those thrown into the Lake of Fire. He is a leader, which reminds me of Lucifer and how he is described as a Man that will be thrown into Hell...

Isaiah 14:16-19
"They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet."


Thus, we have the Old Serpent (Devil, Satan) and his minions (represented by the Goat) thrown into the Lake of Fire...

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."


Note that a Serpent and a Goat are two separate entities.
Very interesting, is the Lake of Fire the "Trial" or "Event" that cleanses "ALL" unto salvation by your belief system?
Oh, and BTW, I am small "c" catholic. :D
 
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BobRyan

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Bob also claims that statement is a "mistake" on the Adventist website.

But the problem is, Bob will not disagree with anything Ellen White says. So while he says that is a mistake. He does not think these statements by Ellen White are mistaken. He just says they are out of context.
funny how "context matters" - eh?
But, I linked to the full context for each statement
The problem is "the link" is not the same as showing the statement in context.

If I provide "A link" to you saying "if I am a liar I am certainly not aware it - I only tell the truth" and simply quote "I am a liar" and add "a link" -- it represents a certain degree of lack of attention to detail.

I don't see how that is even a tiny bit confusing - but you "seem say" you don't understand the importance of context so I will assume you are being accurate.
. And Bob has not in fact gone through all the statements to show how they don't mean what they clearly say.
I focus on the one that it is the title of the thread and the OP --

context.
 
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BobRyan

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Great Controversy​

Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.​
nice of you to point that out
Early Writings:


he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"​
nice of you to point that out.,

Paying "for what HE has caused" is not "paying someone ELSE's debt - rather it is paying for his own work in that regard" --

Obviously.

As already noted - the bank robbery is not only a crime for those actively holding up the bank - it is also a crime for the mastermind behind it.

Obviously.

I bet I get to point this out a few dozen times -- as you continue to ignore this detail in your own posts.
 
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Grip Docility

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funny how "context matters" - eh?

The problem is "the link" is not the same as showing the statement in context.

If provide "A link" to you saying "if I am a liar I am certainly not aware it - I only tell the truth" and simply quote "I am a liar" and add "a link" -- it represents a certain degree of lack of attention to detail.

I don't see how that is even a tiny bit confusing - but you "seem say" you don't understand the importance of context so I will assume you are being accurate.

I focus on the one that it is the title of the thread and the OP --

context.
Bob, Do you agree with the combination of these three passages?

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed
the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

John 5:39 You search and keep on searching and examining the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those [very Scriptures] that testify about Me


Bob, can we agree that JESUS is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY? The very Holy Spirit of Christ IS the Spirit of Prophecy?
 
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BobRyan

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Later in chapter 9 the connection to the Day of Atonement is even more clear, and even many Adventist scholars agree:

Hebrews 9:23-26 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (NKJV)​
A number of Adventist scholars have recognized that verse 25 ....

  • Heb 7:26-27 - High priest - daily - offers up sacrifices - on the altar
  • Heb 9:28 "bear the sins of many" - on the cross
  • Heb 10:10 - offering of the body of Christ - on the cross
  • Heb 9:25-26, "offer often" = "suffer often" - on the cross
  • Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
  • Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
  • Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke
“offered” on the altar.

Heb 9

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


Lev 1:9 Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer all of it up in smoke on the altar as a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord.


Ex 29:13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and offer them up in smoke on the altar.

Ex 29:25 Then you shall take them from their hands, and offer them up in smoke on the altar on the burnt offering for a soothing aroma before the Lord; it is an offering by fire to the Lord.

Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens;

27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

The point in Hebrews is ONE sacrifice -- once for all.
Not "the Day of atonement ended at the cross"

==============================

John Gill on Heb 9:24

... Christ appears in the court of heaven for his elect, by representing their persons; by presenting himself, his blood, sacrifice, and righteousness, before God on their account; by introducing them into the presence of God, and offering up their prayers with the incense of his mediation; by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance; not that he did not appear before God for the saints of the Old Testament, for he was the angel of God's presence then, though he did not appear then in the manner he does now, as the Lamb in the midst of the throne, as if it had been slain; but it denotes the continuance and perpetuity of his appearance for his people; he is ever interceding for them.

======================

As Matthew Henry also notes



===================================

In this last part of the chapter, the apostle goes on to tell us what the Holy Ghost has signified to us by the legal purifications of the patterns of the things in heaven, inferring thence the necessity of better sacrifices to consecrate the heavenly things themselves.



I. The necessity of purifying the patterns of the things in heaven, Hebrews 9:23. This necessity arises both from the divine appointment, which must always be obeyed, and from the reason of that appointment, which was to preserve a proper resemblance between the things typifying and the things typified. It is observable here that the sanctuary of God on earth is a pattern of heaven, and communion with God in his sanctuary is to his people a heaven upon earth.

II. …. From the places in which the sacrifices under the law, and that under the gospel, were offered. Those under the law were the holy places made with hands, which are but figures of the true sanctuary, Hebrews 9:24. Christ's sacrifice, though offered upon earth, was by himself carried up into heaven, and is there presented in a way of daily intercession for he appears in the presence of God for us. He has gone to heaven, not only to enjoy the rest and receive the honour due to him, but to appear in the presence of God for us, to present our persons and our performances, to answer and rebuke our adversary and accuser, to secure our interest, to perfect all our affairs, and to prepare a place for us. 2. From the sacrifices themselves, Hebrews 9:26. Those under the law were the lives and blood of other creatures of a different nature from the offerers--the blood of beasts, a thing of small value, and which would have been of none at all in this matter had it not had a typical respect to the blood of Christ but the sacrifice of Christ was the oblation of himself he offered his own blood, truly called, by virtue of the hypostatical union, the blood of God and therefore of infinite value. 3. From the frequent repetition of the legal sacrifices. This showed the imperfection of that law but it is the honour and perfection of Christ's sacrifice that, being once offered, it was sufficient to all the ends of it and indeed the contrary would have been absurd, for then he must have been still dying and rising again, and ascending and then again descending and dying and the great work had been always in fieri--always doing, and always to do, but never finished, which would be as contrary to reason as it is to revelation, and to the dignity of his person: But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared, to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

=======================

Christ's once for all sacrifice is not just for the end-of-year once-a-year sin offering but for all of them that were offered all during the year, year after year. And the "otherwise" (the alternative to that) is NOT "well then He would have to come to earth yearly and die on the day of atonement" but rather ALL of the sacrifices and sin offerings of the entire would have Him coming back "to suffer OFTEN" - year after year.

Hebrews 9 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, can we agree that JESUS is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY? The very Holy Spirit of Christ IS the Spirit of Prophecy?
I don't have a text saying that.

What I find in the Bible is that God the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of prophecy" as we see in 2 Pet 1:20-21

The "play on words" that Bob S relies on is that there are some books titled "The Spirit of Prophecy" as a reference to one of the gifts of God the Holy Spirit found in 1 Cor 12.
 
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Grip Docility

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I don't have a text saying that.

What I find in the Bible is that God the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of prophecy" as we see in 2 Pet 1:20-21
Romans 8:9 Wait... I found a better text for you...

Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”'

'Better?
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, Do you agree with the combination of these three passages?

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
So then it is not Jesus - but it bears testimony TO Jesus as your quote shows.


Rev 19:10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brothers and sisters who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (NASB), NKJV, KJV

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (NASB)
Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
I like that text but it leaves open the question of whether the "Spirit of Christ" is in fact - God the Holy Spirit which I am inclined to believe it is. The third person of the Godhead.
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 8:9
Your quote of Rom 8:9 says this --

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

It appears that the reference is to God the Holy Spirit and He is called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ" in that example. Or is there a way to rule that out in your POV?
 
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Grip Docility

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So then it is not Jesus - but it bears testimony TO Jesus as your quote shows.


Rev 19:10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brothers and sisters who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (NASB), NKJV, KJV

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (NASB)

I like that text but it leaves open the question of whether the "Spirit of Christ" is in fact - God the Holy Spirit which I am inclined to believe it is. The third person of the Godhead.
I apologize. Are these better?

Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”'

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you

Who is the TRUTH, Bob? :p I know that you know it's Jesus. I just speak like an idiot sometimes. :p
 
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Grip Docility

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Your quote of Rom 8:9 says this --

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

It appears that the reference is to God the Holy Spirit and He is called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ" in that example. Or is there a way to rule that out in your POV?
My Adventist Father Cried when he realized that the Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of Jesus. :D
 
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Grip Docility

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Your quote of Rom 8:9 says this --

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

It appears that the reference is to God the Holy Spirit and He is called "The Spirit of God" and "The Spirit of Christ" in that example. Or is there a way to rule that out in your POV?
Bob, don't read this passage, if you don't want to be a heretic. :p

1 John 2:27 :D
 
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tall73

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funny how "context matters" - eh?

The problem is "the link" is not the same as showing the statement in context.

If I provide "A link" to you saying "if I am a liar I am certainly not aware it - I only tell the truth" and simply quote "I am a liar" and add "a link" -- it represents a certain degree of lack of attention to detail.

I don't see how that is even a tiny bit confusing - but you "seem say" you don't understand the importance of context so I will assume you are being accurate.

I focus on the one that it is the title of the thread and the OP --

context.

Bob, you have not attempted to pull in context from the links. The point of providing the links are for people to have access to the whole document. But if you are claiming that each of those statements is taken out of context, and therefore mean something else, then you should pull in the context for each statement and show how.

But you have not done so. The point of the statements is obvious, and in line with the Adventist site's statement.
 
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I focus on the one that it is the title of the thread and the OP --

context.

Of course not, because the "one" that is the title of the thread is a quote from the website, and combines elements of multiple statements from Ellen White. Rather, you pick out parts of statements you think you can defend while ignoring other parts. That is not context at all.

For instance, Bob highlighted "which he had caused", but of course ignored the rest of the statement. That is not context, Bob:
he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"​



Paying "for what HE has caused" is not "paying someone ELSE's debt - rather it is paying for his own work in that regard" --

As already noted - the bank robbery is not only a crime for those actively holding up the bank - it is also a crime for the mastermind behind it.


I bet I get to point this out a few dozen times -- as you continue to ignore this detail in your own posts.
Quite the opposite Bob. I have addressed at length your contention here.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

She lists all of the things that satan suffers for in her theology:

a. Punishment of His own sins.
b. Ruin of souls caused

And then the one that you want to ignore:

c. the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him

The sins of the redeemed host are not his.

And this element of bearing the sins of the righteous, as the website comment puts it, is said a number of ways in the various comments.

-"the sins of the truly penitent"
-"the sins of His people"
-"the sins of all who come to Jesus"
-"the sins of the redeemed host"
-"the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome"

Those are not his sins. Those are the sins of others. And they are listed separately in the Early Writings quote from his own sin, and even his influence to ruin others.

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (NKJV)​
People are tempted by their own desires per James. They have their own sin.

Jesus bore our sins, in His body, on the tree. satan cannot do that.

Jesus is also the one who removes our sins from us, removing all trace of sin from the camp:

Psalm 103:10He has not dealt with us according to our sins,​
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.​
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,​
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;​
12 As far as the east is from the west,​
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.​


 
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tall73

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The Goats have a deeper meaning. I may get into more detail later, but for now I will simply state that there are different types of Atonement.
What do you think the sin-offering goat, who's blood is taken into the sanctuary to make cleansing represents?

Thus, the Scapegoat represents those people that will be atoned for after they die, however they must go through Hell (symbolized by the Wilderness) first.

In the context of the Day of Atonement, being cast into the Wilderness is a picture of being separated from the presence of God. This would be more in line with being cast into Hell or the Lake of Fire.

It is the sins of the people in the camp, that are then removed from the camp.
Leviticus 16:21-22 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. (NKJV)​
How can the sins of those in the camp be placed on the wicked? The wicked can only atone for their own sin, not the sins of all the people.​
And those who reject the atonement being made are already shown to be destroyed in the Day of Atonement, separate from the scapegoat imagery:
Leviticus 23:26-31 26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 27 “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (NKJV)​


We need the Blood of a Lamb, not a Goat...

1 Peter 1:19
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"


You are claiming that the Blood of the Goat represents the Blood of Jesus. See the problem?

No, I do not see the problem. I see you reading in the context of a different passage where a simile is used, to describe dividing into two groups:

Matthew 25:31-32 31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (NKJV)​

The righteous, and unrighteous, are certainly separated into two groups. But that does not mean that a goat is a symbol of the wicked in other contexts.

In the context of the Mosaic law regarding sacrifice, we do not see the goat representing the wicked. In fact, we see a close relation between lamb and goat, and both are used as offerings for the same services. In fact, we speak about the Passover lamb. But notice what the text that institutes the Passover actually says:


Exodus 12:2-5 .​
3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: ‘On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man’s need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (NKJV)
You could use a goat or a lamb as the passover "lamb". And we know that the passover sacrifice represents Jesus, because Paul confirms it plainly:
1 Corinthians 5:7 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. (NKJV)

In the same way the sin offering could be a goat or a lamb:

Leviticus 4:27-35
27 ‘If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the Lord in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.​
32 ‘If he brings a lamb as his sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. 33 Then he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill it as a sin offering at the place where they kill the burnt offering. 34 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.​

The Atonement of Yom Kippur lasted only one year. The Atonement Jesus made lasts an eternity. If the Blood of Bullocks and Goats can take away everyone's sins forever, then we would have no need for Jesus.
But that is the argument being made in Hebrews. Jesus' Sacrifice was Once-for-All. He doesn't need to repeat it. The Old Testament type was a shadow of the true. Jesus is better.

The text even says the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins. But Jesus did by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 10:1-10​
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.​
Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will​
(cf. Ps. 40:6–8)​
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:​
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,​
But a body You have prepared for Me.​
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin​
You had no pleasure.​
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—​
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—​
To do Your will, O God.’ ”​
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (NKJV)​

The OT was a shadow of the true. But it still pointed to the true. The OT sanctuary was made after the pattern of the true sanctuary in heaven. The various sin offerings, peace offerings, etc. pointed to the One sacrifice of Christ. That is why in chapter 9 he starts by outlining the earthly, then describes how the ministry of Jesus far surpasses it in the heavenly.

The goats, bulls, etc. all pointed to Him, but he is much better.

We may as well just build another Temple, restart the services, and throw the New Testament in the garbage. Everyone can still be saved. People would only have to go to the Temple once and it is finished. See the problem?

Since I am not suggesting re-building the temple, but in fact, I am reading IN the New Testament about a description of how the Old Testament told what Jesus would bring about, to build the faith of those who can now see the fulfillment--no, I don't see the problem. I see it as taking what the New Testament says about the OT. These things pointed to Jesus.

Jesus offered Himself, a better Sacrifice:

Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.​
Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.​
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God​

He is a better High Priest:

Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.​
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.​
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.​
Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,​
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.​
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.​
Hebrews 9:11-12 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. (NKJV)​
He is the Mediator of a better covenant:

Hebrews 8:6-13 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.​
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”​
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (NKJV)​

If the New Testament goes to such pains to spell out the connections, I think we ought to look at them, and not just import a sheep vs. goat paradigm from a different context, which was stated to be a simile, using "like".


Anyhow, the main point I am making is that, when it comes to the Law, there needs to be more than just 'killing some bulls and goats' to atone for sin. Sometimes a high price must be paid (like a prison sentence of Tribulations and/or Death), otherwise everyone would just commit whatever sin they wanted, and it would be no big deal to Atone for it. Again, the Scapegoat represents the 'reap what you sow' aspect of the Law. It is meant to be a deterrent.


But Jesus "bore our sins in His body", and if the Son of God dying for you, "the Just for the Unjust to bring you to God, " doesn't point out how bad sin really is, then nothing will.

I am certainly not denying that some bear their own sin, rejecting the atonement. But even that is addressed in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:26-31 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NKJV)​

The blood of Jesus IS the point. It is what it all pointed to.

If folks want to debate the meaning of the scapegoat, I think there is value in that. But missing the point of the One who shed His blood being spoken of throughout the type, and shown in the fulfillment would be a tragedy.

And that is why Bob and I, though we disagree on a number of points, both see the goat of the sin offering pointing, as do all the sin offerings, to Christ.



Christians are under Grace. This means that many of the Yom Kippur services are obsolete and therefore should not be used as a one hundred percent comparison to Salvation. Again, Law vs. Grace must be rightly divided.

They are. Hebrews does outline how the OT pales in comparison to the greater salvation of Christ. But Hebrews is in the New Testament, and it doesn't ignore the Old Testament. Instead, it shows how it pointed to Jesus.

Hence Jesus could say:

John 5:39-40 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (NKJV)​
Luke 24:25-27 25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (NKJV)​

 
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I do not believe the cleanliness of the animals have to do with whether someone is unrepentant or not.

1 Peter 1:18-19 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. (NKJV)​

Hebrews 9:14 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (NKJV)​

It very much matters, because the unblemished animal points to the only one who committed no sin. Jesus is the ONLY one who meets the criteria of unblemished, spotless, holy.

2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NKJV)​

Certainly the unrepentant wicked do not meet that criteria.
 
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  • Heb 7:26-27 - High priest - daily - offers up sacrifices - on the altar
  • Heb 9:28 "bear the sins of many" - on the cross
  • Heb 10:10 - offering of the body of Christ - on the cross
  • Heb 9:25-26, "offer often" = "suffer often" - on the cross
  • Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
  • Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
  • Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke
“offered” on the altar.

Bob is arguing against the idea that Hebrews 9:23-25 refers to the Day of Atonement, despite the various Adventist scholars that admit it.

He is attempting to illustrate that "offered" is a technical term, with a limited meaning. The reason he is doing this is to defend the SDA notion that Jesus did not start the Day of Atonement ministry until 1844.

As we see, the term is used in a variety of ways in the NT, and Hebrews.
It means to present or bear, or offer, etc. Here are just a few of the uses:

Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,

Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine​
Act 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,​

These are certainly not referring to the death of a sacrifice as a technical term.

The author of Hebrews has other uses clearly not indicating death:

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating/presenting you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?​
Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.​

The "offering" in the passage in question, Hebrews 9:23-25 has to be examined in its own context to determine the meaning.

Verse 25 continues the thought of verse 24 where Jesus enters (past tense) to appear in the presence of God on our behalf, in heaven itself. This is the presentation of the completed sacrifice in heaven. The context is not earth:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly
, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

This entry was once for all. We saw that earlier in the chapter, all the entries were fulfilled in one:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The result of the once-for-all entry was eternal redemption. The entry was by means of blood. Blood was not required to enter the first compartment. But blood is said to be required to enter the second:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.​

in Hebrews 9:7 the word offer is used, and it is describing the blood being offered before God, in the sanctuary, on the Day of Atonement. This then lays the groundwork for Hebrews 9:23-25 in which the author argues that Jesus surpassed the earthly high priest, with a better cleansing of the heavenly things, with a once for all sacrifice, by entry and presentation before the Father, fulfilling the Day of Atonement.

This unusual use of the term offer was noted by Adventist scholar Felix Cortez in a footnote on page 25 of his dissertation The Anchor of the Soul that Enters 'Within the Veil': The Ascension of the 'Son' in the Letter to the Hebrews:

Interestingly, Hebrews departs from the language of the LXX to describe the manipulation of blood by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: the blood is not “sprinkled” on the sanctuary but “offered” (9:7).​

This anticipates Hebrews 9:25, in which Jesus' entry is compared (favorably) to the entry with blood yearly, by the high priest, when Jesus offers Himself, the completed sacrifice.

We also see purification for sins represented in Hebrews 1:3:


Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high​

Unlike the earthly high priest who had to leave from God's presence Jesus stays. He reigns as High Priest and King.

He now ministers on the basis of the completed blood work. We come to Him in real time to confess and receive the benefits of that already finished death, entry and presentation before God on our behalf.

That presentation of blood is what is pictured in Leviticus. It does not show review of books, but cleansing blood presented for the sins of all true believers.
Leviticus 16:15 15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. (NKJV)​

We see this fulfilled in 9:23-25:

Hebrews 9:23-26​
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holies every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (NKJV)​
In this passage we see the following elements:

- It is a necessity that the heavenly things be cleansed
- Christ entered heaven itself (not the earthly sanctuary), now to appear in the presence of God for us.
- He did not enter to present Himself often, as the high priest has to do each year, with blood.

As the Adventist scholars earlier admitted, this yearly entry by with blood by the high priest points to the Day of Atonement.

The context is the cleansing of the heavenly things. The Day of Atonement included the cleansing of the sanctuary. Here the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by better sacrifices. Adventists claim the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary starts in 1844. However, this text, verse 23, is the one New Testament passage that overtly discusses the cleansing of the heavenly things. And as we will see, the events described in this section happen long before 1843.

Richard Davidson, Adventist Old Testament scholar, spells out the lack of specified timing in 9:23:

Note that in Heb 9:23, the word anagkē "necessity" is a noun, and katharizesthai "to be cleansed" is an infinitive. Neither of these terms give an indication of time--past, present, or future.​

(“Christ's Entry 'Within the Veil' in Hebrews 6:19-20: The Old Testament Background” Andrews University Seminary Studies, Autumn 2001, 186)

But while the verse itself has no timing, it is directly linked to verses, logically and grammatically, that do have a stated timing. Those verses we can place squarely in the past from the perspective of the author of the book of Hebrews.

In examining the argument of the author in this section, we need to pay careful attention to the connecting words used. They indicate the relation of one section to the next. We see, for instance, that in Hebrews 9:23 the verse is tied to the preceding verse by the term translated in English "thus". The word in Greek is ouv.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.​
Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν ὑποδείγματα τῶν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αὐτὰ δὲ τὰ ἐπουράνια κρείττοσι θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.​

This term shows that the statement of the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things in verse 23 flows from the thought of verse 22. What was the argument of verse 22?

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.​

Verse 22 is the culmination of the argument of chapter 9 to this point. It states a principle which links together all the various cleansing rites with blood. Blood was necessary for forgiveness, and everything is purified with blood.

In the Daniel and Revelation Committee Series volume on Hebrews, Adventist scholar William Johnsson describes the importance of verse 22 in this way:

Many exegetes of Hebrews have seen in this verse the so-called "blood rule," a critical plank in the author's argument. It clearly looks far wider than inauguration, since it is dealing with aphesis, ("release," "pardon"). Verse 22, in fact, is summing up the role of blood in the OT. It is reaching back beyond verse 18 to embrace verses 1-21. ("Defilement/Purification and Hebrews 9:23," 96)​

It is with this in mind that verse 23 says that the cleansing of the sanctuary is thus necessary. The cleansing of verse 23 is a cleansing to deal with sin and to provide for forgiveness.

Verse 23 is related not only to the discussion before it, but also to the arguments after it. Again we see another important connecting word showing that the fulfillment of the cleansing is now being spoken of:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.​
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.​

The word rendered "for" here in verse 24 is γαρ and connects verse 23 to the argument of 24-25, which deals with Christ's entry into God's presence. It is a term used when drawing a conclusion from a preceding argument. Therefore, the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things, is directly tied to, and explained through, the statements in verse 24. Verse 24 shows Jesus' past-tense entry directly into God's presence.

Verse 24 spells out a couple of things about Jesus' entry:

1. Christ has entered not into the holy places made with hands. (The earthly tabernacle).

2. Christ has entered into the true--heaven itself--to appear in God's presence on our behalf.

Verse 25 continues speaking about this entry, which is part of the argument for the cleansing of the heavenly things.

Again we see an important connecting word, ουδε, which has the idea nor, or, nor yet.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own​

Heb 9:25 οὐδ᾿ ἵνα πολλάκις προσφέρῃ ἑαυτόν, ὥσπερ ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς εἰσέρχεται εἰς τὰ ἅγια κατ᾿ ἐνιαυτὸν ἐν αἵματι ἀλλοτρίῳ​

Verse 24 started with a negative statement: Christ entered not. . . .

Verse 25 continues with another negative statement regarding Christ's entry:

Nor yet . . .

In verse 25 we have not only the connecting word ουδε but also a clause that indicates purpose. It uses the word ινα, which means in order that. So we can translate the first part of verse 25 something like this:

Nor yet was it in order that. . . .

Nor yet refers to the entry into God's presence spoken of in verse 24. Jesus did not enter in the the earthly sanctuary made with hands. Nor yet did He enter in order that He might offer Himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own.

The words for nor yet and in order that, which begin the verse, can refer only back to the event of entry and presentation in God's presence of verse 24. So we see that verse 25 still describes aspects of Jesus' entry.

The following Bible versions recognize this connection to the entry in verse v. 24 and add the word enter to vs. 25 to clarify that it has reference to the entry of Christ in verse 24:

Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.​
(New International Version)​
Nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself regularly again and again, as the high priest enters the [Holy of] Holies every year with blood not his own.​
(Amplified Bible)​
And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal.​
(New Living Translation)​

The following commentaries, which look particularly at the Greek text, recognize the significance of this combination of ουδε and ινα:

The New International Greek Testament Commentary recognizes that the author's phrase nor yet in order that is tied to the main clause in verse 24, for He has not entered:
The author writes ουδ ινα rather than ουχ ινα because the main clause (ου γαρ...εισηλθεν) is expressed negatively.​

The Interpretation: The Epistle to the Hebrews

ου and now ουδε: Christ did "not...nor," etc. Christ did not enter into a mere earthly sanctuary; nor (did he enter heaven) in order to be offering himself often like as the high priest enters into the sanctuary year by year​

Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews, by Franz Delitsch

V. 25 Nor yet (is he entered in) that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy of holies year by year with alien blood.​

Expositor’s Bible Commentary

“Nor” carries on the negative at the beginning of v.24: Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary…nor did he…offer himself again and again.” Where there is nothing in the Greek corresponding to NIV’s “did he enter heaven,” the words seem required.​

The Expositor’s Greek Testament

“Nor yet [did he enter in] in order to offer Himself repeatedly,” that is, He did not enter in for a brief stay from which He was to return to renew His sacrifice.​

Vincet's Word Studies

Nor yet that (οὐ δ' ἵνα)​
Supply did he enter. “Nor yet did he enter that he might offer,” etc.​
The entry, then, of verse 24 is still being spoken of in verse 25. And the argument, in regard to the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things, is still being explained.​

From examining the argument of the author in vss. 23-25 we realize that the statement in vs. 23, regarding the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things, is not just an isolated, timeless, statement that is mentioned but not elaborated upon. Rather, verse 23 introduces the author’s description of the fulfillment of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. This fulfillment involves Jesus’ entry into God’s presence, on our behalf. This entry is compared to the yearly entry of the high priest, every year, with blood not his own. This description is a clear reference to the Day of Atonement entry of the high priest to cleanse the earthly sanctuary.
 
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Here are a number of commentaries which look at the Greek and which discuss this presentation of Jesus in God's presence:

Commentary on the New Testament by D. D. Whedon

This offer is parallel to the entereth of the high priest; it, therefore does not here mean to sacrifice himself, but to present himself in heaven, as the high priest presented himself in the holy place. Yet in both cases a previous sacrifice takes place.​

Vincet's Word Studies

Offer himself refers rather to Christ's entrance into the heavenly sanctuary and presentation of himself before God, than to his offering on the cross. . . The sacrifice on the cross is described by παθειν suffer, Heb 9:26, and is introduced as a distinct thought. The point is that, being once in the heavenly sanctuary, Christ was not compelled to renew often his presentation of himself there, since, in that case, it would be necessary for him to suffer often. Each separate offering would necessitate a corresponding suffering.​


Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews by Franz Delitsch

V. 25 Nor yet (is he entered in) that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy of holies year by year with alien blood.​

The comparison is between the offering of the Jewish high priest within the veil, and that of Christ in the eternal sanctuary: the προσφερειν εαυτον here spoken of cannot therefore be ...the self-sacrifice of Christ upon earth, but a self-presentation subsequent to that. The Jewish high priest goes year by year into the typical sanctuary, εν...αιματι αλλοτριω, i.e. to offer there the blood of a sacrifice which is not himself. Not so with Christ. He is gone into the heavenly sanctuary once for all, not to offer Himself first now, and then again some time hence, and again afterwards, and so on in perpetual succession.​
On verse 26:

An of-repeated self-oblation (πολλακις προσφερειν εαυτον) would have been impossible without an oft-repeated suffering of death (πολλακισ παθειν).​


The Greek Testament, on vs. 26, in reference to 25 and 26 and the argument therein:

This παθειν is here not equivalent to that προσφερειν, but is emphatically placed as a new necessity, involved in that; the πολλακις being common to both: the πολλακιςπροσφερειν necessitated the πολλακιςπαθειν. If Christ’s view in entering heaven was to offer, present, himself often to God, then, as a condition of that frequent presentation, there would be an antecedent necessity for Him to suffer often: because that self-presentation is in fact the bringing in before God of the Blood of that his suffering: and if the one was to be renewed, so must the other be likewise.​

Jamieson Faussett Brown

Construe, "Nor yet did He enter for this purpose that He may offer Himself often," that is, "present Himself in the presence of God, as the high priest does (Paul uses the present tense, as the legal service was then existing), year by year, on the Day of Atonement, entering the Holy of Holies.​

Beacon Bible Commentary

Extends the thought of the previous verse by affirming that this crucial self-presentation before the Father does not need to be repeated, as the high priest entereth into the [earthly] holy place every year with blood of others.​

Jesus' offered Himself in God's presence, on our behalf, the completed sacrifice.
 
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tall73

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The point in Hebrews is ONE sacrifice -- once for all.
Not "the Day of atonement ended at the cross"

Of course, I was not alleging that

a. the Day of Atonement ended at the cross.
b. I was focusing on what Hebrews describes happening in heaven, after the cross primarily in discussion of "offer". Because 9:23-25 compares the ENTRY into God's presence in heaven to the yearly entry with blood by the high priest.

The entry and presentation before the Father already happened, past tense.

The portion that happens when the high priest leaves the sanctuary may yet be in the future, because Jesus is still in the heavenly sanctuary.

Nor have I alleged that Jesus is done serving as High Priest. But He completed the blood work--the sacrifice on earth, and the presentation of Himself in God's presence, the completed sacrifice. Hence Hebrews 1:3 says purification was made for sins:

Hebrews 1:3 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself made purification of sins sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (NKJV)​

The atoning sacrifice for all is presented, and the provision made. Now we come to the throne of grace to avail ourselves of that provision:

Hebrews 4:15-16​
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (NKJV)​

We come to our High Priest, on the throne of grace, to obtain mercy and grace.

So yes, He ever lives to make intercession for us. But the portions of the Day of Atonement that relate to the once-for-all death, once-for-all entry, and appearance before God on our behalf, already happened, in the first century. Now Jesus ministers the grace won from what the mercy seat pointed to--the throne of grace.


Christ's once for all sacrifice is not just for the end-of-year once-a-year sin offering but for all of them that were offered all during the year, year after year.

I have already indicated that various offerings are spelled out in chapter 9. For instance, the red heifer, the rites surrounding the inauguration and dedication of priests, the ratifying of the covenant with blood, etc.

However, Hebrews 9:23-25 describes the fulfillment of the entry and presentation before the Father on our behalf of the Day of Atonement.


And the "otherwise" (the alternative to that) is NOT "well then He would have to come to earth yearly and die on the day of atonement" but rather ALL of the sacrifices and sin offerings of the entire would have Him coming back "to suffer OFTEN" - year after year.
Incorrect. The entry is contrasted with the yearly entry with blood by the high priest, in the context of the cleansing of the heavenly things. The only entry that is yearly, by the high priest, with blood, is the Day of Atonement.

And this is not referring to an entry throughout the year, but a once a year entry.


The term is used with Kata distributively, which has the meaning of yearly, as the Adventist Scholars Johnsson and Davidson admit. And both refer to the parallels to 9:7 where the Day of Atonement is spelled out in the type, and the high priest enters once per year.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Richard Davidson

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively. ("Inauguration or Day of Atonement?" Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002)​

Here are Greek resources that note this distributive usage of kata:

The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament:

yearly--the distributive use of the preposition--"year after year."​

Thayers:

http://library.mibckerala.org/lms_frame/eBook/Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon - Joseph Thayer.pdf

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Dr. Robinson's Greek Lexicon to the New Testament:

Dr. Robinson's Greek lexicon to the New Testament condensed for schools and students. With a parsing index

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By trying to make Jesus’ activity in verse 25 refer back to His death, rather than to His entry into heaven, Bob is attempting to avoid the obvious problem for his view of an 1844 Day of Atonement. Jesus is said to have entered into heaven into God's presence, compared with the entry of the high priest with blood yearly, in the context of the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things. That is clearly the Day of Atonement. So he tries to make "offer" refer to the death.

But this "offer" of Himself in vs. 25 is obviously happening in heaven, in God's presence, compared to the ENTRY of the high priest, not the death of the sacrifice.


Hebrews 9:23-26 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (NKJV)​
Heb 9:25 οὐδ᾿ ἵνα πολλάκις προσφέρῃ ἑαυτόν, ὥσπερ ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς εἰσέρχεται εἰς τὰ ἅγια κατ᾿ ἐνιαυτὸν ἐν αἵματι ἀλλοτρίῳ​

The offering then is not speaking of the death but of the presentation before the Father. The death did not happen in the sanctuary, as part of the entrance, but on the earth, on the cross. The word translated offer here means present or offer or bring.

Verse 25 is speaking about Jesus' presentation of Himself in God's presence. In the earthly type of the Day of Atonement, as part of the cleansing of the heavenly things, the earthly high priest would kill the sacrificial animals. He would enter the sanctuary and go directly into God's presence. He would bring blood with him and would sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat of the ark. We see this described in Hebrews 9:7:
Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,​
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.​

What we see in Hebrews 9:24-25 is the fulfillment of this entry with blood into God's presence. Jesus' offering of Himself here is the author's way of of showing the presentation of the blood on the Day of Atonement.

The evidence for this view is described below:

Evidence 1: The term that is used for offer in Hebrews 9:25 is the term that is used in 9:7 when describing the sprinkling of blood in the earthly Day of Atonement:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.​

This was noted by Adventist scholar Felix Cortez in a footnote on page 25 of his dissertation The Anchor of the Soul that Enters 'Within the Veil': The Ascension of the 'Son' in the Letter to the Hebrews:

Interestingly, Hebrews departs from the language of the LXX to describe the manipulation of blood by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: the blood is not “sprinkled” on the sanctuary but “offered” (9:7).​

The author in 9:7 uses an unusual term to describe the Day of Atonement ministration of blood in the earthly sanctuary. The blood in the Day of Atonement type was sprinkled. Instead of sprinkling, the author of Hebrews describes it as presentation of blood. This anticipates the fulfillment, in which Christ enters God's presence (9:24) and offers Himself (9:25), just as the earthly high priest offered the blood on the Day of Atonement in God's presence, according to the author in vs. 7.

Compare:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.​

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.​
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own​

Jesus did not sprinkle Himself in heaven, but He presented Himself. His shed blood had long since dried after the cross. But He rose again and presented His blood in the form of a living, completed sacrifice. He presents Himself in God's presence.

Evidence 2: Jesus' offering of Himself is compared to the entry of the earthly high priest, not the killing of the animal by the high priest.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

The blood is already shed and the priest is entering in verse 25. This is not a reference to the death of the animal.

As we already saw, the phrase, nor yet in order that, indicates that verse 25 is about the entry into God's presence, continuing the thought of verse 24. It makes no sense to say, Nor yet did He enter in order that He might offer Himself in death repeatedly. The death did not happen at the entry but on earth. The term offer here indicates the offering of Himself in God's presence. And that did happen at the time of the entry.

This offering in heaven fits the type under discussion, the cleansing of the heavenly things, which was accomplished by blood presentation in God's presence on the Day of Atonement.

Evidence 3: If we take Jesus' offering of Himself in verse 25 to be death, then it does not make sense of the whole argument in verses 25 and 26.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The argument the author is making in verse 26 is that, if Jesus were to offer Himself in heaven before God often, He would also have to suffer (death) often. The ministration of the blood followed the death of the victim.

But this argument, that for Jesus to present Himself often in heaven would require Him to suffer often, is lost if both offer and suffer mean death. If both offer and suffer refer to death, then the argument of the two verses would be:

Nor yet was it to die often . . . for then he would have had to die often.​

The statement would be redundant.

Instead, what we see in vs. 24 and 25, in direct answer to the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things, is an entrance into God's presence. There Jesus fulfilled the offering of the blood by the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement. Jesus died once for all, entered once for all, and then presented Himself in God's presence not often, but once for all. Jesus is living. He did not present His blood in a bowl, but in His person.

So the argument of verse 23, that it is necessary for the heavenly things to be cleansed by better sacrifices, has now been spelled out. It is through Jesus' past-tense, once-for-all death, once-for-all entry, and offering of Himself in God's presence, not often, but once, that the heavenly things are cleansed. Jesus made purification for sins. He provided the corporate means of forgiveness. He fulfilled the Day of Atonement type of cleansing in the sanctuary. And this was described in past tense terms in the first century.
 
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