Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) and a theory on what really happened at Pentecost?

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Correction: by default becomes between individual and God BECAUSE there is no interpreter. That is not a "private prayer language".

Do you need a "private prayer language" because you are an unbeliever? Seeing how tongues were given as a sign to unbelievers.

Are you aware of what forum you are in and what the rules are?
Although my ID is Pentecostal, I am an ordained Elder of the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand, and if I could change my ID, I would change it to Presbyterian Charismatic, because that is my theology.

However, all am stating is what the Scripture actually says, and that is totally consistent with Presbyterian theology which makes Scripture the rule of faith. In all of the 26 years I have been involved in the Presbyterian church, I have not encountered any cessationist teaching. I have actually taught tongues as a spiritual gift and a private prayer language from the pulpit on a number of occasions throughout those years and have never been contradicted by any person.
 
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You are not "speaking in tongues" according to Biblical definition of the action. You are speaking senseless gibberish. Glossolalia is not a language. Tongues was a decipherable language; which was given to unbelieving Jews as a sign of judgement. Thus once the unbelieving Jews disappeared; so did miraculous speaking in tongues.
The Biblical definition of speaking with tongues is found in 1 Corinthians 14:2. Also, I have shown through other verses in 1 Corinthians 14, that any believer who abides by Paul's teaching in that chapter has every reason to believe that they are genuinely speaking in tongues according to the Biblical definition.

Do you not think that accusing me of disregarding the Bible and speaking senseless gibberish is breaking the flaming rule on the forum?
 
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The Righterzpen

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However, all am stating is what the Scripture actually says, and that is totally consistent with Presbyterian theology which makes Scripture the rule of faith. In all of the 26 years I have been involved in the Presbyterian church, I have not encountered any cessationist teaching. I have actually taught tongues as a spiritual gift and a private prayer language from the pulpit on a number of occasions throughout those years and have never been contradicted by any person.
Interesting, although on one level that doesn't surprise me; (that you've never encountered cessationist teaching). You don't appear to be too familiar with the Reformation either. Which is rather interesting (that you don't know the history of the Reformation) seeing how you state you are an ordained Presbyterian elder. (Presbyterianism came out of the Reformation and all the reformers were cessationist.)
The Biblical definition of speaking with tongues is found in 1 Corinthians 14:2. Also, I have shown through other verses in 1 Corinthians 14, that any believer who abides by Paul's teaching in that chapter has every reason to believe that they are genuinely speaking in tongues according to the Biblical definition.
The Biblical definition of speaking in tongues is shown in Acts 2. Clearly the apostles were speaking in what was being received as decipherable foreign languages. Thus assuming upon the consistency of Scripture; (seeing how we are instructed to build doctrine upon comparing Scripture with Scripture) that the tongues spoken in Corinth were consistent with what happened in Acts. Which clearly, were received as foreign languages.
Do you not think that accusing me of disregarding the Bible and speaking senseless gibberish is breaking the flaming rule on the forum?
Many scientific studies have clearly proven that glossolalia is not a language. Multiple religions around the world practice glossolalia. It's not a miraculous phenomena. The tongues practiced by modern pentecostals has also been proven by scientific study to be glossolalia; and therefor is not an actual language.

"Speaking in tongues" did not become a thing in the Christian church until starting about 150 years ago and didn't go "mainstream" until after WWII. This is not a practice that has existed for centuries. Why do you suppose that is?
 
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ARBITER01

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What happened on the Day of Pentecost was an absolute miracle, to show tongues being a sign to the unbelievers present. There is no evidence that the same miracle was replicated on any other occasion.

I would disagree Oscarr. I think Azusa street actually had an outpouring happen for them, not just some sort of revival. Acts 2 is a template, any group of people persevering in prayer long enough can have that happen to their group also.

I read the amount of time those people put into fellowship and prayer, and it was off the charts. They were having services 7 days a week, 3 to 4 times a day, long into the nights. With that amount of dedication to GOD, something is going to happen Spiritually. That's unheard of nowadays in this age of cell phones, internet, and McWorship.

That outpouring is still moving through the world currently. In 2011, I think it was Pew Research did a sort of census of Christianity, and the Pentecostals, Charismatic, and evangelistic types were in greater number around the world than everyone except Catholics, and we are on track to overtake them around 2050, if not sooner.

That's pretty good for being a denomination just under 150 years.
 
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The Righterzpen

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That's pretty good for being a denomination just under 150 years.
Why do you suppose modern pentecostalism is only 150 years old and has not been happening across the past 2000 years of Christendom since the resurrection?

And why do you suppose the modern take on it started with the Shakers and the Mormons?

Why did tongues once cease and pick up again 2000 years later; if the gift was never meant to cease?
 
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ARBITER01

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Which is exactly what's happening in your AOG churches. There's absolute chaos; of exactly the opposite of what Paul has instructed.

I've been around AOG churches for approx. 30 years or more, and I've never seen any sort of "chaotic" environment like you keep saying. I'm not sure whether you just ill informed or your purposely making it up, but there is nothing like that happening in any of our churches.

Maybe you've watched too much TBN.
 
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ARBITER01

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Why do you suppose modern pentecostalism is only 150 years old and has not been happening across the past 2000 years of Christendom since the resurrection?

And why do you suppose the modern take on it started with the Shakers and the Mormons?

Why did tongues once cease and pick up again 2000 years later; if the gift was never meant to cease?

I don't subscribe to the gifts ever ending. I can agree they have tapered back at times over the centuries, but I don't think GOD ever had them stop at any point.
 
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I don't subscribe to the gifts ever ending. I can agree they have tapered back at times over the centuries, but I don't think GOD ever had them stop at any point.
What do you do with 1 Corinthians 13:8 then?
 
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I've been around AOG churches for approx. 30 years or more, and I've never seen any sort of "chaotic" environment like you keep saying. I'm not sure whether you just ill informed or your purposely making it up, but there is nothing like that happening in any of our churches.

Maybe you've watched too much TBN.
Besides the issue of modern pentecostal tongues not being received as foreign languages as was in Acts; "tongue speakers" though are freely speaking with no interpreter. Which that is a violation of Scripture.
 
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Interesting, although on one level that doesn't surprise me; (that you've never encountered cessationist teaching). You don't appear to be too familiar with the Reformation either. Which is rather interesting (that you don't know the history of the Reformation) seeing how you state you are an ordained Presbyterian elder. (Presbyterianism came out of the Reformation and all the reformers were cessationist.)

The Biblical definition of speaking in tongues is shown in Acts 2. Clearly the apostles were speaking in what was being received as decipherable foreign languages. Thus assuming upon the consistency of Scripture; (seeing how we are instructed to build doctrine upon comparing Scripture with Scripture) that the tongues spoken in Corinth were consistent with what happened in Acts. Which clearly, were received as foreign languages.

Many scientific studies have clearly proven that glossolalia is not a language. Multiple religions around the world practice glossolalia. It's not a miraculous phenomena. The tongues practiced by modern pentecostals has also been proven by scientific study to be glossolalia; and therefor is not an actual language.

"Speaking in tongues" did not become a thing in the Christian church until starting about 150 years ago and didn't go "mainstream" until after WWII. This is not a practice that has existed for centuries. Why do you suppose that is?
It is interesting that Calvin said in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14, that tongues and prophecy declined because of misuse and that these gifts ended up being discredited and so believers of the time did not seek for them so that they were not identified with the misuse. He definitely did not say that they declined and ceased through some decree of God that they cease after the Apostolic age. I studied the Reformation while doing my MDiv, and I am not sure whether Luther was cessationist or not. I think he did report that some got a bit ethusiastic and spoke some unusual languages, but don't quote me on that. John Wesley reported that he heard of some who "gobbled like geese", which is not surprising because I have heard some speech in tongues that sounded just like that.

There have been movements over the centuries that have been very charismatic in nature, and because the only record we have of them is through the Roman Catholic Church's court transcripts, so we might have to read between the lines to determine whether they were true believers or not. Because the RCC were enemies to any movements that would not acknowledge the Pope, then I wouldn't trust any conclusions the RCC would have concerning them. Most of the literature of these movements were destroyed so we don't really know what they were about and whether they displayed charismatic gifts or not.

What we can't discount are the many testimonies of people in Pentecostal churches speaking what sounded like "Glossalalia" (or gibberish as you say), and yet people in those gatherings have heard their own native languages being spoken. I had a friend in a prayer meeting at my church who spoke in tongues and a Ghanaian visitor heard him praising God in his own rural village dialect, and I know that my friend was hardly able to express himself in English let alone an African rural village dialect!

I have often travelled on the bus to work with people speaking Hindi and Mandarin Chinese, and both languages sounded like gibberish to me, and yet they understood each other perfectly. Just because a language sounds like gibberish doesn't mean that it actually is.

Many cessationists have a blind spot when it comes to tongues which causes them to discount these many testimonies of people speaking in tongues and being understood. I think it was St Francis of Assisi who had the experience of needing to share the Gospel with a Frenchman and after asking the Lord for help, started speaking in a language by faith and found that the Frenchman replied in the same language. St Francis discovered that he was speaking in French to the person, a language he had never learned. There are many testimonies especially during the early days of the Pentecostal movement, where people who had never learned a language, actually spoke it and was understood. There is the testimony of a woman who prayed for the Italian language so she could share the Gospel with those in the Italian section of her city, and was given the language and was able to speak it for the rest of her life.

These are testimonies that I have read about in my extensive reading over the years, and it would be no point trying to actually cite them in the literature; anyway, you probably wouldn't believe if I was able to.

I know the stories about some early Pentecostals thinking they could go to India, China and Japan and give the Gospel in tongues, and came back home disappointed and disillusioned because it didn't work for them. There are over enthusiastic people in all religious movements to do things out of presumption instead of faith.
 
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What do you do with 1 Corinthians 13:8 then?

I think this verse was more important in relation to that,...

1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

This describes what sets in motion the doing away with of the gifts. But what is that perfection described here? If we look into scripture and the example of Jesus, the only thing I see happening to us that would bring about a perfection where we wouldn't need the gifts any longer would be our glorified bodies when the body of Christ is pulled up out of the world.
 
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I would disagree Oscarr. I think Azusa street actually had an outpouring happen for them, not just some sort of revival. Acts 2 is a template, any group of people persevering in prayer long enough can have that happen to their group also.

I read the amount of time those people put into fellowship and prayer, and it was off the charts. They were having services 7 days a week, 3 to 4 times a day, long into the nights. With that amount of dedication to GOD, something is going to happen Spiritually. That's unheard of nowadays in this age of cell phones, internet, and McWorship.

That outpouring is still moving through the world currently. In 2011, I think it was Pew Research did a sort of census of Christianity, and the Pentecostals, Charismatic, and evangelistic types were in greater number around the world than everyone except Catholics, and we are on track to overtake them around 2050, if not sooner.

That's pretty good for being a denomination just under 150 years.
I certainly agree with you that Azusa Street was a phenomenal outpouring the Holy Spirit which resulted in many thousands being converted to Christ; in fact, the real amazing miracles were the overwhelming number of people saved and filled with the Holy Spirit during that time, and its influence spread out all over the world. No doubt about it.

It was totally different to what we see today in some large Charismatic churches that seem to consist in lights, smoke and mirrors, but very few genuine converts to Christ. Unfortunately the Prosperity Gospel type churches have so muddied the waters with the false prophecies and out-of-control tongues and kundalini behaviour, that what is really happening in true Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are overshadowed. If the devil can't beat the power of people truly baptised with the Holy Spirit and using the gifts, he works to corrupt areas of it to try to discredit the whole movement, and cause good believers to be spooked away from embracing the Holy Spirit and His gifts.
 
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ARBITER01

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"tongue speakers" though are freely speaking with no interpreter. Which that is a violation of Scripture.

Again,.... I don't know what you are talking about.

We normally have a tongues message with an interpretation every other Sunday or every other 2 Sundays at our church. It is a common occurrence. In fact, back around 2010, we started having 2 or 3 tongues messages with separate interpretations for each on a regular basis at our services. This went on for around 2 maybe 3 years. The amount of inspiration in my life was amazing because of that.

There was no tongues messages without interpretations, there was never any sort of chaos in any of our services. Again, I think you are watching too much TBN and thinking everyone acts like they do.
 
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I've been around AOG churches for approx. 30 years or more, and I've never seen any sort of "chaotic" environment like you keep saying. I'm not sure whether you just ill informed or your purposely making it up, but there is nothing like that happening in any of our churches.

Maybe you've watched too much TBN.
An excellent book that I have is "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" by Eddie Hyatt. He shows that the Charismatic has been there in successive movements all the way through. He gives material that has been left out of "official" church histories. A very insightful book.
 
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Besides the issue of modern pentecostal tongues not being received as foreign languages as was in Acts; "tongue speakers" though are freely speaking with no interpreter. Which that is a violation of Scripture.
Having said that, having architectural designed Christian "temples" and "one man band" services where everyone except the man in front are passive pew sitters, as well as "professional" music groups and singers leading worship, are also contrary to Scripture. Point one finger at others and there are three pointing back at oneself.
 
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An excellent book that I have is "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" by Eddie Hyatt. He shows that the Charismatic has been there in successive movements all the way through. He gives material that has been left out of "official" church histories. A very insightful book.

There might be a couple of books documenting the continued use of the gifts. I know I did glance through one that went through the church father histories, and how they talked about them still operating.
 
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I think this verse was more important in relation to that,...

1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

This describes what sets in motion the doing away with of the gifts. But what is that perfection described here? If we look into scripture and the example of Jesus, the only thing I see happening to us that would bring about a perfection where we wouldn't need the gifts any longer would be our glorified bodies when the body of Christ is pulled up out of the world.
The usual theory is that the "perfect" are the Scriptures. But the "perfect" Scriptures are the originals which are now lost to him and all we have now are different translations. So, which translation can we decide is now the "perfect" version of the Scriptures that fit the criteria?
 
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There might be a couple of books documenting the continued use of the gifts. I know I did glance through one that went through the church father histories, and how they talked about them still operating.
It is on the record that many of the church fathers reported the continued use of the gifts of tongues, prophecy and healing right through to the 4th Century AD. And the Greek Orthodox church maintained the spiritual gifts right through to the 12 Century, although not in the public area.

Googling will bring up the different accounts by the Church fathers if anyone wants citation.
 
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There might be a couple of books documenting the continued use of the gifts. I know I did glance through one that went through the church father histories, and how they talked about them still operating.
"Christianizing the Roman Empire" is another good book by Ramsay MacMullen. He was a secular historian not influenced by theology and so his history was not skewed toward cessationist theology.
 
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The usual theory is that the "perfect" are the Scriptures. But the "perfect" Scriptures are the originals which are now lost to him and all we have now are different translations. So, which translation can we decide is now the "perfect" version of the Scriptures that fit the criteria?

On top of that, they made two different bibles, one critical text and one received text, further dividing people.

Besides, there's nothing in scripture depicting a gathering of Holy Spirit writ into a perfection for us where the church wouldn't need it's gifts any longer. I don't know where somebody got that idea, but it's not scriptural.
 
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