If you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned...

[JoeT]

Have you ever seen , that the Greek word for PURGATORY in Not in the Greek text ?

Have ever seen , where there is a Greek word for CHURCH and the Greek text EKKLESIA does NOT mean CHURCH as EKK means , OUT OF and LESIA , means A CALLING and the correct translation is an ASSEMBLY .

Check for yourself and see the Greek text !!

dan p

Actually, Church would be "kyriakon" (cyriacon) in Greek, the Lord's House. Ekklesias refers to the congregation. For example, en meso ekklesias kai synagoges, from Proverbs 5:14 is rendered "in the midst of the church and of the congregation."

I noticed you didn't respond to my question, is there a reason you didn't connect post 69 to my question in post 71?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

God's promise to Israel of a national kingdom has never been rescinded. In Romans 11:2 and 25-26, Paul writes that God has not rejected His people. God will fulfill His promise to Israel. There will be an earthly, physical kingdom but not now.

Then Christ lied? [Matthew 10:7 Mark 1:15 Luke 10:11]. What came at the Pentecost fire and brimstone or the Holy Spirit?

The kingdom we are in now is a spiritual kingdom that includes all who believe. That even includes believing Jews who have accepted Jesus and Lord and Savoir. This spiritual kingdom is not limited to one church. It is all who believe. Salvation is not limited to Catholics.

The Apostles, or their companions, produced the Scriptures. It is their writings we call Scripture.

Was the kingdom of Moses a spiritual kingdom? What about David's Kingdom? On the other hand does symbol of kingdom doesn't limit anyone. I wouldn't suggest to you that Catholics have a shoe in to Salvation. I would suggest, however, that if you don't believe His Church was built on St. Peter and St. Peter's successors [Cf. Matthew 16:18], you are not a believer and all non-Catholic Churches renounce the successors of St. Peter.

JoeT

 

[Dan Perez]

Poor premise to start with.

I have never heard anyone stay mary 'activly' sinned. This makes it sound as if Mary lived in Sin.
What people typically believe is that Mary never sinned and did not need a savior. Or Mary was a sinner just like us and needed a savior just like us.

1- The Virgin and her integrity contrasts with those that magnify themselves instead of magnifying God.
2- Because that is what God declared. To demonstrate his sovereignty.
3- You need to do a little research on Jewish marriages at the time. Once betrothed, the husband worked for a year and was not with his wife during this time. He build in order to take care of her. And then, after a year, if she was found with child, he could divorce her 'without guilt' knowing he and she had never consummated the marriage as yet.
4- The Ark was made with the purest materials available to man. Not the purest available to God.

Peace and Blessings

And in LUKE 1:47 Reads , And my spirit hath rejoiced in God

MY SAVIOUR // SOTER is in the DATIVE CASE , means the DATIVE of Reference or of Possession and Mary was born in sin as every one else is , PERIOD and have yet to see a verse that someone says that at some point in time BECAME SINLESS , EVER !!

dan p

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Then Christ lied? [Matthew 10:7 Mark 1:15 Luke 10:11]. What came at the Pentecost fire and brimstone or the Holy Spirit?

Was the kingdom of Moses a spiritual kingdom? What about David's Kingdom? On the other hand does symbol of kingdom doesn't limit anyone. I wouldn't suggest to you that Catholics have a shoe in to Salvation. I would suggest, however, that if you don't believe His Church was built on St. Peter and St. Peter's successors [Cf. Matthew 16:18], you are not a believer and all non-Catholic Churches renounce the successors of St. Peter.

JoeT

No, Christ spoke of a spiritual kingdom about to take place. Pentecost was the sign of that kingdom. The kingdom promised to Israel in the OT, was a physical kingdom promised to physical Israel. That kingdom will resume in the Millennial.

Scripture says faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is required for salvation. It says nothing about believing the church is built on Peter and that he had successors. That is adding a requirement Scripture does not. That is "another Gospel" and Paul said anyone who teaches another Gospel is to be anathema.

 

[JoeT]

Have you ever seen , that the Greek word for PURGATORY in Not in the Greek text ?

Have ever seen , where there is a Greek word for CHURCH and the Greek text EKKLESIA does NOT mean CHURCH as EKK means , OUT OF and LESIA , means A CALLING and the correct translation is an ASSEMBLY .

Check for yourself and see the Greek text !!

dan p

I have not seen purgatory in Greek. That's because it was sometimes called paradise as in Luke 23:43. Or, being consumed by fire in Hebrews 12:29 with a consuming or purifying fire as in 1 Corinthians 3:12. Sometimes its found in Scripture as Abraham's bosom. [Cf. Luke 16:22-25]. As silver and gold are refined in a purifying fire. Proverbs 17:3

Purgatory hasn't even been mentioned in this thread, what is the relevance to post 69? Is there one? Are you avoiding answering the question?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

No, Christ spoke of a spiritual kingdom about to take place. Pentecost was the sign of that kingdom. The kingdom promised to Israel in the OT, was a physical kingdom promised to physical Israel. That kingdom will resume in the Millennial.

Scripture says faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is required for salvation. It says nothing about believing the church is built on Peter and that he had successors. That is adding a requirement Scripture does not. That is "another Gospel" and Paul said anyone who teaches another Gospel is to be anathema.

Maybe you could tell us what it means to "believe". Is this intellectual or simply emotional? Is it good vibes or is it something else all together. What happens after we've been faith-ed? are we relieved of doing [Cf. 1 Corinthians 16:13]? What happens to charity [Cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:6; 5:8]? If we have faith why do we pursue "justice, godliness, faith, charity, patience, mildness." [1 Timothy 6:11]


JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Maybe you could tell us what it means to "believe". Is this intellectual or simply emotional? Is it good vibes or is it something else all together. What happens after we've been faith-ed? are we relieved of doing [Cf. 1 Corinthians 16:13]? What happens to charity [Cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:6; 5:8]? If we have faith why do we pursue "justice, godliness, faith, charity, patience, mildness." [1 Timothy 6:11]


JoeT

Belief implies more than a mere agreement with facts. If I believe eating rat poison will kill me, and assuming I have no desire to commit suicide, then I won't eat rat poison. If I do, then clearly I did not truly believe it would kill me. If you believe Jesus Christ is both Lord and Savior, then His lordship over you should mean something. You owe Him your obedience. You "do" because you love Him and want to obey Him and because He has given you a new nature and prepared good works for you to do. The same with charity and the fruits you listed from 1 Timothy. We don't do those things to earn our salvation. They are the fruit of a changed life empowered by the Holy Spirit.

That is the whole point of the Book of James. Good works don't save us but God does not save us and leave us unchanged.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work among you will complete it by the day of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 1:6

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

These verses make it plain that we are not saved by works but that God has begun a good work in us prepared beforehand. If someone says they have faith, but their life shows no evidence of it, we are to question their salvation (more importantly, they should question their salvation). Only God knows their heart and He is the only true judge, but we can inspect fruit and have doubts. No grounded person believes that salvation is just mouthing the "magic words." Say the right thing and then you can go on leading a wicked life and it doesn't matter. A saved life is a changed life. The rate of that change will vary and it will have its ups and downs.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I have not seen purgatory in Greek. That's because it was sometimes called paradise as in Luke 23:43. Or, being consumed by fire in Hebrews 12:29 with a consuming or purifying fire as in 1 Corinthians 3:12. Sometimes its found in Scripture as Abraham's bosom. [Cf. Luke 16:22-25]. As silver and gold are refined in a purifying fire. Proverbs 17:3

Purgatory hasn't even been mentioned in this thread, what is the relevance to post 69? Is there one? Are you avoiding answering the question?

JoeT

Abraham's bosom was a waiting place for OT saints before they went to heaven. It was not like purgatory. It was not a place where one went to do penance. We are refined by purifying fire in this life only. Now that Christ has come when we die, our souls go straight to heaven if we are in Christ. We don't need a final confession or last rites.

 

[JoeT]

Abraham's bosom was a waiting place for OT saints before they went to heaven. It was not like purgatory. It was not a place where one went to do penance. We are refined by purifying fire in this life only. Now that Christ has come when we die, our souls go straight to heaven if we are in Christ. We don't need a final confession or last rites.

If you'll notice there was a great divide between various souls, he was experiencing a tormented in flame. divide from the others in a fixed void called chaos [Mark 12:27; Luke 16:22-23 sqq.]; i.e. he was in purgatory

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

If you notice there was a great divide between various souls, he was experiencing a tormented in flame. divide from the others in a fixed void called chaos [Mark 12:27; Luke 16:22-23 sqq.]; i.e. he was in purgatory

JoeT

No, he was in a waiting place for hell. Abraham's Bosom was a waiting place for those who would go to heaven. Before Jesus opened heaven's gates, OT saints went to a place of rest and comfort as their souls could not yet go to heaven. In this story, that place is referred to as Abraham's Bosom. Those who died outside the faith, went to a place of torment awaiting the Great White Throne judgment when they would be sent to their permanent abode with Satan and the demons in the Lake of Fire. After his resurrection, Jesus freed the souls in Abraham's Bosom so they could now be in heaven. Abraham's Bosom was not Purgatory. It was not a place to do penance. Its only reason for existence was that Jesus had not yet opened the gates of heaven. After Jesus freed those souls, believers now go straight to heaven. Abraham's Bosom no longer exists. If you are in Christ, your sins have been forgiven and the price paid by the blood of Christ. There remains nothing for you to do before going to heaven. You don't need to spend time in Purgatory which does not exist.

Non-believers still go to a place of waiting and torment.

 

[Dan Perez]

I have not seen purgatory in Greek. That's because it was sometimes called paradise as in Luke 23:43. Or, being consumed by fire in Hebrews 12:29 with a consuming or purifying fire as in 1 Corinthians 3:12. Sometimes its found in Scripture as Abraham's bosom. [Cf. Luke 16:22-25]. As silver and gold are refined in a purifying fire. Proverbs 17:3

Purgatory hasn't even been mentioned in this thread, what is the relevance to post 69? Is there one? Are you avoiding answering the question?

JoeT

I did go back and see Post 69 and 71 , and will you write me what you mean ?

I mentioned PURAGOTY because there are many that NEVER check the Greek Text !!

dan p