Free will and determinism

Palmfever

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2019
683
366
Hawaii
✟162,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Free will,
Science is uncertain. God asks us to "chose this day who you will serve."

… When the first simple life forms appeared on Earth about 3.7 billion years ago, one of their most interesting essential qualities was that they did stuff. Before that, things happened: grains of sand tumbled around, chemicals reacted and volcanoes spewed out lava. But those were inert physical processes. The first life forms, however, used energy to work against the second law of thermodynamics – the principle that everything tends to become more disorganised over time – and hence stay alive. “Agency is a really core property of living things that we almost take for granted, it’s so basic,” says Mitchell.

It is here that we can find the source of our free will, he says. In fact, this is what the nervous system evolved for. “It is primarily a control system, the job of which is to define a repertoire of actions and choose between them. This control system has been elaborated over evolution to give greater and greater autonomy.”

For Mitchell, it is a mistake to think we can always reduce complex systems to their component parts and consider causation in nervous systems, say, at the level of their atoms. Contrary to this “reductionist” approach, complex systems like brains can only be understood by considering their interactions at higher levels of organisation.

This view has recently been put on a firmer footing by research that reconsiders the reductionist approach of seeking “microscale” causes. In 2022, Erik Hoel, then a neuroscientist at Tufts University in Massachusetts, analysed more than a dozen different kinds of causation in complex systems, proposed by researchers in fields from statistics to genetics and psychology. In every case, he found some form of “causal emergence” – where the causes of some phenomenon or behaviour emerge not at the microscale but a higher or more coarse-grained level of the system.

In the case of decision-making, then, a person’s thoughts and feelings and memories are as much genuine causal forces as what happens at the level of atoms and neurons. “The idea that every event has a cause is only a problem for free will if it’s taken to mean that every cause is at this lowest level, it’s all physics,” says Mitchell. “But the entire structure of a nervous system can be a cause of things – you can be a cause.” Which suggests we might just be the captains of our souls, after all.

Whether any of this will allow free will sceptics and believers to reach an accord is far from clear. The opposing sides can’t even agree on what it would take to provide clinching evidence either way. Sapolsky will believe in free will only if some aspect of human behaviour can be shown to be completely devoid of prior influences. “Here are the neurons that caused it to happen – show me that they would have done the exact same thing if all the surrounding neurons sculpted by the previous history of your life had been different,” he says.

Mitchell says that is setting the bar impossibly high. “What kind of a being would be behaving free from any prior causes? They wouldn’t have a reason for doing anything, because reasons are past causes – it would just be a random behaviour generator.” But he adds that it is difficult to conceive of anything that would convince him that his argument is wrong, because it isn’t a simple, testable hypothesis. “It’s hard to say there’s some particular experiment that could show we do or don’t have free will,” he says.

Roskies, for one, isn’t holding her breath. “There have been thousands of years of discussion about this issue,” she says. “If there were a simple answer, we would have figured it out by now.”
Free will: Can neuroscience reveal if your choices are yours to make?
 
Upvote 0

Palmfever

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2019
683
366
Hawaii
✟162,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw confront the black hole information paradox​


All of which suggests space-time is emergent, but what is it emerging from, exactly, and how?
JF: It’s become clear over the past decade that entanglement is a key feature. Basically, think of the surface of the ball as lots of entangled particles. For every entangled link, think of a little quantum wormhole. There’s a correspondence between entanglement and wormholes – it is as if many-particle entanglement can be thought of in terms of a network of wormholes that weave space-time.

BC: We’re discovering a deeper structure, which doesn’t have space and time in it. And you might say: “Which one is the real description, then? Is it the thing on the boundary or the space inside?” As far as I’m aware, nobody really gets into that discussion. These are equivalent descriptions of the physics.

Who are we to say which is a deeper picture? It’s tempting to do so because it is true that if you look at the temperature of a box full of gas, then you can say that emerges from a description of atoms. I think you would be correct to say the temperature, pressure and entropy – or measure of disorder – of a box of gas has got a deeper description, in terms of moving parts. It becomes philosophical quite quickly. But one super-cool thing is how all this relates to quantum computing, a completely different field, superficially.

How does it relate to quantum computing then?
BC: Quantum computers are made up of qubits, which can exist in not just a state of zero or one, but a mix of the two. These days, one of the big challenges in quantum computing is to store information in a physically robust way because qubits are very delicate things. The answer is to build a network of interconnected qubits in such a way that that network is robust against damage to the fragile quantum states of some of the interconnected qubits.
JF: This network of qubits is a quantum error-correcting code. Now, we are learning that it looks like space is built in much the same way – like a giant quantum computer. If you take some chunk of space-time, the entanglement between that region and the rest of the universe is enough to encode the interior of the region. And that seems to be true for every bit of space everywhere. You can destroy qubits on the boundary and you still don’t destroy the information in the interior. It’s a really clever way of encoding information that’s robust, and one that nature seems to have alighted on.

What does this mean for reality as we know it?
JF: We picture ourselves as being local. Our experience of the world is that we deal with local objects interacting locally with each other. But it appears that there is an equivalent description, which is highly non-local. That already shatters your perception of what you think you are, right?

Space is not fundamental, it is emergent. All that really exists is information. Space and time emerge from a bunch of entangled quantum units that have logical relationships with each other. These units, we’re not quite sure what they are, they could be like qubits or something, but they interact with each other quantum mechanically. And the result of that is the universe we live in.

BC: We really do seem to be saying that space and time emerge from something deeper, which is absolutely fundamental.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,477
11,151
71
Bondi
✟262,172.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Sound reasoning would show a judgment without hypocrisy.
There's certainly a degree of hypocrisy when we respond to an immoral act as if free will exists. Rather than accept that you would have done the same if your experiences were identical there's a tendency to believe that somehow you're the better person and would have been able to rise above the circumstances. A lack of free will prompts a certain humility.

I remember reading Lord Of The Flies in school when I was about 14 and the class being asked which group of children we would have chosen to align ourselves with. Everyone picked the 'good' group. And I thought then, no...that can't be right. We can't all be Ralph. Some of us will turn out to be Jack.

To paraphrase Aldous Huxley: The walls of our prison are invisible and we believe ourselves to be free.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Palmfever

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2019
683
366
Hawaii
✟162,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Another interesting read. Excerpt from: Agency

Your decision-making ability is a superpower physics can't explain​


We have at least one big clue where to dig: the way agency changes the future, but not the past. “We think of agency in a time-oriented way,” says Rovelli. “We do something and then something happens.” Most physical laws don’t work like this: the basic equations of classical and quantum physics run just as well backwards as forwards.

The only one-way street in physics is the inescapable rise of disorder, or entropy. This is encapsulated by the second law of thermodynamics, the empirical law that says ice creams melt, milk can’t be unspilled and that it is far easier to lose one sock than to unite a pair. “That’s one of the steps to clarify to unravel this problem,” says Rovelli. “How do entropy and the second law of thermodynamics come in?”

Rovelli, Carroll and others are attempting to find out by sketching the possible connections between agency and wider cosmic flows. Carroll admits that there is still a lot of groundwork to be laid. “How do you even translate concepts like ‘make a decision’ or ‘choice’ or ’cause something to happen’ into the language of statistical mechanics where you have things bumping into each other and probability distributions and stuff like that?” he asks.

Hidden away in these thermodynamic considerations is the concept of information. A century and a half ago, physicist James Clerk Maxwell imagined a tiny intelligent being that could gauge the speed of individual molecules in a gas to sort hotter ones from cooler ones, and so apparently decrease disorder and entropy in contravention of the second law.

“Our agency is time-oriented: we can change the future, but not the past”

Subsequent investigations showed that it was clever manipulation of information that gave “Maxwell’s demon” this apparently unphysical power. Much more recently, physicists including Paul Davies at Arizona State University have suggested that information manipulation might be what distinguishes living matter from inert matter.

It almost certainly has a bearing on agency. A curious physical fact is that we have access to detailed information about the past, in the form of our memories and other evidence, and also more limited, unreliable and corrupted information about the future, thanks to prediction from patterns in the past and present. Does agency in some way consist of an ability to harness and combine these different forms of information – and if so, can we develop a mathematical language to express their differences? Carroll is working on that. “I think that I have ideas and I’m on the right track for understanding,” he says. “But the i’s have not yet been dotted.”

Others are scratching around the same territory. “Agents are just creatures that can learn about the world and use what they learn to change and control it,” says Susanne Still at the University of Hawaii. “They follow rules of information acquisition, so we need to find out what those rules are.”

Those rules must fulfil certain criteria. They must include some element of memory storage and recall: the ability to bank and process external information over time so as to project it onto the future. They must allow for feedback loops, so relevant new information can update information already held internally. There must also be a way of delineating an agent’s boundary, to distinguish actions triggered internally from those triggered externally.

“Agency is not just reflexes,” says Larissa Albantakis at the Center for Sleep and Consciousness at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “If you’re only reacting to the environment, you’re not an agent, you’re just a system going through the motions.” The apparently deliberative quality of our agency sets it apart from, say, bacteria responding to chemical stimuli, or even frogs reflexively snapping at passing flies. “We collect influences from our past, we subject those influences to reflective process, we somehow extract things like hope and dreams and bring them to bear on behaviour, to mediate between the influences impinging on us,” says Ismael.

Together with her colleague Giulio Tononi, Albantakis has recently shown how systems with the same overall physical dynamics, but different internal ways of dealing with and distributing information, can develop different degrees of autonomous agency. Meanwhile, Still has found that information-acquiring machines built to retain memories and operate at maximum thermodynamic efficiency necessarily only retain new information with predictive power. “What emerges is an information bottleneck – a method that tells you to distil relevant, predictive bits and to throw away irrelevant clutter,” she says. Because thermodynamic efficiency gives a survival advantage, that might be a further lead on how something like agency first arose.

Many other researchers are working at different bits of the agency problem, but all admit it is a huge work in progress. “I recognise the largeness of the project and the smallness of our progress so far,” says Carroll.

Mind over matter?

And there might be a twist to the tale. In the end, it might turn out to be less about what physics can tell us about agency, and more about what agency can tell us about physics.

“The question of how much of the structure that I see around me is my concepts projected onto the world, and how much is the world projected onto me, is one of the deepest in the philosophy of mind,” says Knox. All we can say for certain about the laws of physics is that they make sense to us. Useful as their predictive power may be, we have no guarantee of their relationship to fundamental reality. Given these limitations, should we accept the starting premise that only they can provide answers?

Leifer for one is doubtful. “I don’t believe that physics is necessarily as fundamental as most of us have been led to believe,” he says. Physics has been so successful, he thinks, precisely because it has extracted the easy stuff – the bits of the world amenable to characterisation by regular, mathematical laws – and put them in a box marked “physics”. But that doesn’t mean everything fits in there.

Take an old chestnut that often comes up when people talk about conscious perceptions: colour. “Physicists have a definition of red: light of such and such a wavelength,” says Leifer. But they miss out the most essential aspect of a thing’s redness – how red we perceive it to be – purely because we have no way of coming up with a common standard. “And why should we expect physics to have anything to do with it?” asks Leifer. Agency might represent a similar conundrum, in which case we are fated to remain beyond the reach of the universe of physics we have invented.

“The whole idea of an external world evolving by regular laws might be an illusion”

There are even some indications that “invented” really is the right word. Theoretical physicist Markus Müller at the Austrian Academy of Sciences in Vienna has recently shown that physical laws, at least of the type that underlie quantum theory, could be brought into existence purely by modelling how agents combine information probabilistically to come to decisions. In that case, the whole idea of an external world evolving according to regular laws might be an illusion: agency is the only thing there really is.

A bridge too far? Maybe. Other answers are available. Perhaps they lie in some new understanding of how quantum effects play out in our brain, for example, or even more speculatively in the interplay of quantum theory and gravity, or other physics we haven’t even invented yet.

“Is it just a matter of building the bridges between different layers of scientific description, or understanding an entirely new phenomenon?” asks Carroll. “I think it’s the first answer, but I’m admitting there’s a question there.”

For all the uncertainties, asking these questions is a worthwhile enterprise, says Ismael. “It’s a really exciting development that physicists are trying to understand the human being and its place in nature,” she says. Finding answers will ultimately depend both on physicists’ calculating nous and philosophers’ clear conceptual analysis, she thinks. “This really is a place where physics and philosophy can fruitfully interact.”

Where might this take us? “In the end, success will be a naturalistic understanding of human beings that seems to answer to our own conception of who and what we are, in ways that support things that matter about us, like moral responsibility and our sense that when we’re making a decision, that decision is playing an indelible and pivotal role in what we do,” says Ismael.

There is a limit to how far that goes, of course. Physics is unlikely to give us any guidance as to whether we are climbing the right way up life’s many-branched decision tree. Should I have got that puppy? I truly can’t decide.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,477
11,151
71
Bondi
✟262,172.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It is here that we can find the source of our free will, he says. In fact, this is what the nervous system evolved for. “It is primarily a control system, the job of which is to define a repertoire of actions and choose between them. This control system has been elaborated over evolution to give greater and greater autonomy.”
If it was that easily defined then anything with a nervous system has free will. I don't think that anyone would consider that a fruit fly or a jellyfish has free will in the sense that we mean it. And even bacteria 'choose' between options when responding to stimuli. OK, that's purely instinctive and free will would require a conscious decision. But the ability to make a choice doesn't prove that free will exists. Otherwise we're back to 'I just raised my arm, therefore free will'.

The point is that we are self aware of making a conscious decision (as opposed to an instinctive or sub conscious choice) and that therefore gives us the impression of free will - 'Hey I did that. It was me'. Of course it was you. Nobody says otherwise.
For Mitchell, it is a mistake to think we can always reduce complex systems to their component parts and consider causation in nervous systems, say, at the level of their atoms. Contrary to this “reductionist” approach, complex systems like brains can only be understood by considering their interactions at higher levels of organisation.
You can examine the process at whatever level you choose. It's only taken down to the molecular level to show that at every step downwards, from the person being the agent down to electrical and chemical events at a synapse, there is no room for a free will decision to squeeze into the process. Input equals output. And if there is some emergence at one level then that has no effect on that truism. Input still equals output.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,477
11,151
71
Bondi
✟262,172.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Epilogue:
  • In moral acts, reason commands the will. (The choice between croissant or donut not likely a moral decision but a matter more likely of taste than truth.)
  • Reason informs one's value system.
  • The formation of one's value system occurs over time.
  • One's value system is not entirely fixed but it is also not easily modified.
  • Remotely to a moral decision, the moral actor has far greater free will.
  • As the gatekeeper of his own value system, he decides of those events that happen to him, which ones to internalize or dismiss.
  • In the moment of a moral decision, the agent is less free than he is remotely and acts upon his value system as it is in that moment.
I'm afraid that's nothing more than 'we make decisions, therefore we have free will'.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,477
11,151
71
Bondi
✟262,172.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
“Agency is not just reflexes,” says Larissa Albantakis at the Center for Sleep and Consciousness at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “If you’re only reacting to the environment, you’re not an agent, you’re just a system going through the motions.”
In a determinate universe I'm afraid that's exactly what it means. Stars collapse, planets form, mountains rise, oceans freeze but...somehow there's a part of us that doesn't obey the laws of nature? Somewhere hidden inside there's something that excuses itself from operating the way that the rest of existence must?
The apparently deliberative quality of our agency sets it apart from, say, bacteria responding to chemical stimuli, or even frogs reflexively snapping at passing flies. “We collect influences from our past, we subject those influences to reflective process, we somehow extract things like hope and dreams and bring them to bear on behaviour, to mediate between the influences impinging on us,” says Ismael.
No problem with that. We make conscious decisions. Based on, as he says, influences from the past. We have desires (hopes and dreams) and together they determine our choices. I've no problem with that.

The link doesn't work, by the way.
 
Upvote 0

Palmfever

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2019
683
366
Hawaii
✟162,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In a determinate universe I'm afraid that's exactly what it means. Stars collapse, planets form, mountains rise, oceans freeze but...somehow there's a part of us that doesn't obey the laws of nature? Somewhere hidden inside there's something that excuses itself from operating the way that the rest of existence must?

No problem with that. We make conscious decisions. Based on, as he says, influences from the past. We have desires (hopes and dreams) and together they determine our choices. I've no problem with that.

The link doesn't work, by the way.
Sorry about the link, I"ll look into it. It may be that it is a paid subscription and unavailable otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

o_mlly

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2021
2,128
289
Private
✟73,476.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I'm afraid that's nothing more than 'we make decisions, therefore we have free will'.
"That" was posted as a more reasonable assertion on the operation of free will than your robotic assertion which, as far as I can tell, no one has ever experienced. Still, those committed to scientism will continue to push nonsensical ideas to rebut free will.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Critical Thinking ***contra*** Conformity!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,464
10,073
The Void!
✟1,149,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There's certainly a degree of hypocrisy when we respond to an immoral act as if free will exists. Rather than accept that you would have done the same if your experiences were identical there's a tendency to believe that somehow you're the better person and would have been able to rise above the circumstances. A lack of free will prompts a certain humility.

I remember reading Lord Of The Flies in school when I was about 14 and the class being asked which group of children we would have chosen to align ourselves with. Everyone picked the 'good' group. And I thought then, no...that can't be right. We can't all be Ralph. Some of us will turn out to be Jack.

To paraphrase Aldous Huxley: The walls of our prison are invisible and we believe ourselves to be free.


I'm sorry, Bradskii. But I've read up a little bit on Sapolsky's bio/background, and for the fact that it just dawned on me that you placed this thread in the Ethics section rather than into, say, the Kitchen Sink for the sake of a mere stroll within the field of Metaphysics, I'm smelling a little bit of the political in all of this ...

So, what do you expect me to do now? Drop my Bible----and every other book or journal article I own or have learned from----into a pile for a large Humean bonfire and strike a match since we NOW have Sapolsky's new book on the bookstore shelves? I get that you're educated, and I appreciate the acumen you've demonstrated on various topics here and there, but it seems like you're wanting to use Sapolsky's thesis as a Marxist style bulldozer in the midst of what you know is a Christian Forum rather than as a tentative, general point of discussion for furthering the place of empathy in society.

Or maybe I've just misinterpreted your intentions, along with my reading of The Lord of The Flies, or of a few alternative quotes from Aldous Huxley?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,799
2,070
North America
✟2,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Of course God created Humans with free will.
Otherwise they, we, us, would just be meat puppets.

And we can see that all around us, people are choosing how they will behave, and what they will pursue, and what they choose to believe.

The "decider" is always : US.
Ah yes…

The perpetual discussion that Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency for His creations, is the one single thing that the One Who Preexists all existence and has never not existed… for some odd reason, cannot achieve.

I guess if man can’t comprehend it, it must not be possible. :p
 
Upvote 0

Aviel

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2023
619
157
62
Nashville
✟20,766.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ah yes…

The perpetual discussion that Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency for His creations,

God can't hold you accountable for sinning, if you didnt choose it.

God can't send an unbeliever to hell for being a Christ rejector, if you were not allowed that choice.

This verse, could not be in the NT if God didn't honor the CHOICE of a human being.

CHOICE = Free will.


1.) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,799
2,070
North America
✟2,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
God can't hold you accountable for sinning, if you didnt choose it.

God can't send an unbeliever to hell for being a Christ rejector, if you were not allowed that choice.

This verse, could not be in the NT if God didn't honor the CHOICE of a human being.

CHOICE = Free will.


1.) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

American Standard Version
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I don't know, maybe man has figured out the one thing that the Almighty is incapable of fostering... Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency. I mean, if man can't figure out how God did it, it must be impossible for God. :p
 
Upvote 0

Aviel

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2023
619
157
62
Nashville
✟20,766.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't know, maybe man has figured out the one thing that the Almighty is incapable of fostering... Individual Free Moral Autonomous Agency. I mean, if man can't figure out how God did it, it must be impossible for God. :p

If you had children, and you would not allow them to do something, and then you punished them for not doing it, then you are crazy.
You're insane.

So, if God, "pre-destines" you, before you are born, to not be able to Believe in Jesus, and then God sends you to Hell, for not believing.. the God is a Cosmic Psychopath.

And that is JOHN CALVIN's God., as that is John Calvin's Theology.

Never believe it.
Never follow people who teach it.
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,799
2,070
North America
✟2,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
If you had children, and you would not allow them to do something, and then you punished them for not doing it, then you are crazy.
You're insane.

So, if God, "pre-destines" you, before you are born, to not be able to Believe in Jesus, and then God sends you to Hell, for not believing.. the God is a Cosmic Psychopath.

And that is JOHN CALVIN's God., as that is John Calvin's Theology.

Never believe it.
Never follow people who teach it.
How do I know if I'm even making these "choices". :p I'm certain that you see my (Tongue and Cheek), at this point.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Sibling in Him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,007
2,918
66
Denver CO
✟207,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There's certainly a degree of hypocrisy when we respond to an immoral act as if free will exists. Rather than accept that you would have done the same if your experiences were identical there's a tendency to believe that somehow you're the better person and would have been able to rise above the circumstances. A lack of free will prompts a certain humility.
I get what you're saying in the sense that for some reason there can exist a disability impairing someone from doing the right thing. And what you're saying also makes sense so long as we apply "free will" as meaning the capacity to do the right thing. But this becomes a moot point when "free will" can just as easily morph into the exact opposite, the capacity to do the wrong thing. As an equivocation free will becomes an unstable term to reason upon and therefore it cannot actually be ascertained that a lack of free will would actually prompt humility.

The Will alone carries two different aspects of meaning, the faculty of reasoning and the desire of the heart. To me, it would make more sense that a free will would be a will that has humility governing in one's deliberation as opposed to pride. To put it another way, I think it's unreasonable to assume that if I had absolutely no love in my heart, I would have any capacity to care that I had no love in my heart.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,007
2,918
66
Denver CO
✟207,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
CHOICE = Free will.
Try looking at it this way.

Choice can mean "option".
Choice can mean "decision".

Determinism would apply more to Choice/option.
Free will would apply more to Choice/decision.
 
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,007
2,918
66
Denver CO
✟207,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Free will,
Science is uncertain. God asks us to "chose this day who you will serve."
I would like to point out something about the context of the above scripture.

First off, it's Joshua speaking, not God. Joshua qualifies his sentiment with this presupposition, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord...

So, it reads as follows: ...if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord,
choose you this day whom ye will serve....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,799
2,070
North America
✟2,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Dominion: Control, Sovereignty


/thread
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,007
2,918
66
Denver CO
✟207,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Dominion: Control, Sovereignty


/thread

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Grip Docility
Upvote 0