written upon our hearts meaning?

[DamianWarS]

what does written upon our hearts mean? we can't abandon logic just to satisfy our traditions. So we shouldn't just superimpose whatever law as law upon our hearts if it simply doesn't make sense. laws written upon our hearts are inherently natural laws, laws that we don't have to be told to know they exist. For example, I don't need to be told not to steal, murder or lie to know these are things I do not want to happen to me. These are universal morals and they are universal because that's the way we are designed, hence the "written upon the heart" aspect.

When it comes to laws with a focus towards God I still believe that within us all is a longing to connect with our creator even if we reject it there is still a void, or incompleteness of us all that can only be filled by God. Perhaps anecdotal but I don't think an unpopular perspective among Christians or monotheists at large. If we believe in God then it only makes sense that we are designed to worship him too.

Sabbath is also written upon our hearts but in order to understand what this means we have to eliminate the aspects of the Sabbath that we have to be told to understand because these things are not naturally understood and therefor cannot be written upon our hearts. A system of ritual rest performed once a week on a certain day are all things we need to be told to understand so that we may follow. The following may still be good, but these aspects of the sabbath are not written upon our hearts because, without the knowledge of this information, we are ignorant of it.

So what aspect of Sabbath is written upon our hearts? it goes back to the 7th day. the values of the 7th day extend to the completion of the creation. 7 itself is a number of completion and it is regarded this way because of creation. God does not cease work because he is tired, he ceases because the work is finished. and it is this finished work that ushers in the completion of the 7th day. the 7th day is the antithesis to before creation, contrasting light/darkness, complete/incomplete, full/empty, etc... indeed a power spiritual metaphor regarding the process of salvation upon our own lives.

it is this longing and desire for completion that is "written upon our hearts". This is something we do not need to be told in order to know it and it is often said that without God people feel empty or have a void within them that cannot be filled. It is not just salvation that fills this void, light spoken into darkness triggers the new creation within us, but the goal is the work of Christ within us to be complete to usher in the 7th day and this is the universal desire that is written upon all our hearts. if we look to verbatim etched-in-stone law as that focus then we've misunderstood what "written upon our hearts" actually means.

 

[HIM]

Have you tried the Bible and God's Spirit for answers?

 

[Freth]

The answer is found in Romans 2.

​

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.​

​

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.​

Paul is specifically referencing the Ten Commandments, of which includes the Sabbath commandment, the one that says remember. Notice that Paul states that those who do not have the law by nature do the things in the law; a law to themselves. In other words, it's the same law, the same Ten Commandments written in the heart, not some different abstract view of the law. i.e. There is no leeway here, no gray area.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

what does written upon our hearts mean? we can't abandon logic just to satisfy our traditions. So we shouldn't just superimpose whatever law as law upon our hearts if it simply doesn't make sense. laws written upon our hearts are inherently natural laws, laws that we don't have to be told to know they exist. For example, I don't need to be told not to steal, murder or lie to know these are things I do not want to happen to me. These are universal morals and they are universal because that's the way we are designed, hence the "written upon the heart" aspect.

When it comes to laws with a focus towards God I still believe that within us all is a longing to connect with our creator even if we reject it there is still a void, or incompleteness of us all that can only be filled by God. Perhaps anecdotal but I don't think an unpopular perspective among Christians or monotheists at large. If we believe in God then it only makes sense that we are designed to worship him too.

Sabbath is also written upon our hearts but in order to understand what this means we have to eliminate the aspects of the Sabbath that we have to be told to understand because these things are not naturally understood and therefor cannot be written upon our hearts. A system of ritual rest performed once a week on a certain day are all things we need to be told to understand so that we may follow. The following may still be good, but these aspects of the sabbath are not written upon our hearts because, without the knowledge of this information, we are ignorant of it.

So what aspect of Sabbath is written upon our hearts? it goes back to the 7th day. the values of the 7th day extend to the completion of the creation. 7 itself is a number of completion and it is regarded this way because of creation. God does not cease work because he is tired, he ceases because the work is finished. and it is this finished work that ushers in the completion of the 7th day. the 7th day is the antithesis to before creation, contrasting light/darkness, complete/incomplete, full/empty, etc... indeed a power spiritual metaphor regarding the process of salvation upon our own lives.

it is this longing and desire for completion that is "written upon our hearts". This is something we do not need to be told in order to know it and it is often said that without God people feel empty or have a void within them that cannot be filled. It is not just salvation that fills this void, light spoken into darkness triggers the new creation within us, but the goal is the work of Christ within us to be complete to usher in the 7th day and this is the universal desire that is written upon all our hearts. if we look to verbatim etched-in-stone law as that focus then we've misunderstood what "written upon our hearts" actually means.

It is the Law of Love. The only human quality that can not be counterfeited because He knows our heart.

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind and with all your strength…’ And the second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’”

Then Jesus said, “All the Law and the Prophets hang of these two commandments”

Blessings.

 

[DamianWarS]

Paul is specifically referencing the Ten Commandments, of which includes the Sabbath commandment, the one that says remember. Notice that Paul states that those who do not have the law by nature do the things in the law; a law to themselves. In other words, it's the same law, the same Ten Commandments written in the heart, not some different abstract view of the law. i.e. There is no leeway here, no gray area.

Are you suggesting those who do not have the law are naturally inclined to keep the Sabbath commandment?

The 4th commament inherits it's meaning from the 7th day of creation not the other way around. The creation account is written in intentionally in a chiastic structure. Every verse has a parallel with another in the account.

Day 1 is closed in day 4, day 2 is closed in day 5 and day 3 is closed in 6. The first few verses are closed by the last few and the 7th day parallels and closes the dark void before light is spoken.

The meaning of the 7th day is the antithesis of this void, and it is foremost a salvation metaphor. We once we're in this dark void until light was spoken into us. This is revealed in the Bible too in 2 Cor 4:6.... But also pretty much any subject matter that is constrasting light and darkness affirms this as well. 2 Cor 5:17 speaks as those in Christ as the new creation. Did you think new creation wasn't a parallel back to Gen 1? And the completed work of Christ in us is the 7th day of the new creation and this is longing within us all that is written upon our hearts.

 

[DamianWarS]

Have you tried the Bible and God's Spirit for answers?

Yes, as is explited in the OP. The creation account is a supporting text. The salvation metaphor within the creation account is affirmed in 2 Cor 4:6 and pretty much anywhere light is contrasted with darkness. What is written upon our hearts is also of the spirit not of stone tablets (2 Cor 3:3)

Are you saying when you read light being spoken into darkness in creation you don't see a spiritual parallel?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, as is explited in the OP. The creation account is a supporting text. The salvation metaphor within the creation account is affirmed in 2 Cor 4:6 and pretty much anywhere you light is contrasted with darkness. What is written upon our hearts is also of the spirit not of stone tablets (2 Cor 3:3)

Are you saying when you read light being spoken into darkness in creation you don't see a spiritual parallel?

Wouldn't it be sad for those who do not follow and God really meant what He said and wants us to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy and not some abstract/metaphor thing that means something completely different than the clear Words He wrote and spoke - much like the other 9 commandments- we can spiritualize away everything, but at the end who are we following our ideas Proverbs 3:5-6 or God's clear instructions that He wrote in easy to understand Words and wrote these same words/laws in our hearts not some abstract version of them.

 

[DamianWarS]

Wouldn't it be sad for those who do not follow and God really meant what He said and wants us to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy and not some abstract/metaphor thing that means something completely different than the clear Words He wrote and spoke - much like the other 9 commandments- we can spiritualize away everything, but at the end who are we following our ideas Proverbs 3:5-6 or God's clear instructions that He wrote in easy to understand Words and wrote these same words/laws in our hearts not some abstract version of them.

do you not agree that light being spoken into darkness on day 1 is more than physical light spoken into physical darkness? Or is this too abstract for you? The light of day 1 pre-exists physical luminaries such as the sun. Does none of this cause you to approach the text in a different way?

Physical light spoken into physical darkness some 6000 years ago has limited meaning. Sure there is the product of light that we still enjoy, but the light we see is the light of the sun which is not the light of day 1 so its physical application is a bit difficult to connect with as the light on day 1 has a lot of abstract qualities. in a literal vacuum day 1 is just a matter-of-fact thing that happens with no continued effect upon our lives. However, when we approach the text like it is God reaching out to us and allow these concepts to be metaphors, foreshadows and have spiritual meaning the day is transformed and has immense value. So why look at day 2-7 in a physical vacuum too? what look at the whole account only in a physical vacuum? The entire account has greater value with a spiritual meaning, innately abstract than it does a physical meaning. Accept what you want about the physical but do not reject the spiritual meaning in this account as it has far more power and meaning.

do you need biblical revelation to know light and darkness are not light and darkness? it's across the entire landscape of the bible but if you need something specific 2 Cor 4:6 reveals the creation account this way. 1 Cor continues and introduces the terminology of "new creation" (5:17) for those in Christ. Do you not think this is a reference to the creation of Gen 1 since they already brought it up back in 4:6? could not the purpose of creation point to the new creation embedding the gospel in the first words of the bible? or is that too abstract to accept?

when laws are written upon our heart these are values we do not need to be told to understand them. they have a natural inclination, our perception of natural values itswlf are this way because of how we are designed but if we have to be told it to understand it then it was never written upon our hearts to begin with. The specifics in the 4th commandment are not all natual laws. To understand the 4th commandment someone needs to tell us otherwise we would be ignorant of which day of the week is for ritual rest. the need for rest itself is natural and we will naturally take time and rest but the 4th commandment takes this to far greater levels than the natural would ever take it. Spiritual speaking however we do long for the restoration only Christ can give us. The longing is there whether we are told it or not, it's not based on a ritual weekly ceasing of work it's based on a void and darkness that is a part of us without God. God speaks light into that darkness initiating a day 1 event in us, he then fills and restores us and when this work is complete it ushers in our 7th day. This is what is written upon our hearts.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

do you need biblical revelation to know light and darkness are not light and darkness?

Yes, but not everything is a metaphor and Creation is quite literal.

it's across the entire landscape of the bible but if you need something specific 2 Cor 4:6 reveals the creation account this way. 1 Cor continues and introduces the terminology of "new creation" (5:17) for those in Christ.

Correct a new creation are those who are in Christ walking in faith and faith means one uphold His teachings and His laws James 1:22, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, not recreate them.

when laws are written upon our heart these are values we do not need to be told to understand them.

Of course we do, that is why we have God’s Word - it’s the light to our path Psalms 119:105. If we don’t understand God’s law, then there is no consistency- each to make up their own version which we are told not to do. Proverbs 3:5-6 God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33 there is one God and one people all are grafted in through faith, those who have faith live differently than those who don’t, which is why we are called to test ourselves- are we in the faith? Does someone with faith not only believe what Jesus teaches, but also walks as He did? 1 John 2:6

they have a natural inclination, our perception of natural values itswlf are this way because of how we are designed but if we have to be told it to understand it then it was never written upon our hearts to begin with. The specifics in the 4th commandment are not all natual laws. To understand the 4th commandment someone needs to tell us otherwise we would be ignorant of which day of the week is for ritual rest. the need for rest itself is natural and we will naturally take time and rest but the 4th commandment takes this to far greater levels than the natural would ever take it. Spiritual speaking however we do long for the restoration only Christ can give us. The longing is there whether we are told it or not, it's not based on a ritual weekly ceasing of work it's based on a void and darkness that is a part of us without God. God speaks light into that darkness initiating a day 1 event in us, he then fills and restores us and when this work is complete it ushers in our 7th day. This is what is written upon our hearts.

The Sabbath is no different than any other of the Commandments God wrote and God spoke. Paul said Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Same concept applies to the 4th commandment- Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8-11. There is granted a deeper meaning to the commandments and Jesus addressed this in Matthew 5:19-30 but the deeper meaning, does not delete the literal obligation it magnifies it so if we see ourselves breaking the literal commandments- we should be concerned. Romans 8:4-8

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes, but not everything is a metaphor and Creation is quite literal.

Day 1, God speaks light into darkness

are you saying this is not pointing to any abstract spiritual concept?

1 Cor 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

appled over Gen 1 that sounds like a metaphor to me, doesn't Day 7 have spiritual meaning as well? The creation account is a salvation metaphor, 1 Cor 4:6 affirms this. I'm not telling you to reject the physical I'm saying the spiritual application is more important.

Correct a new creation are those who are in Christ walking in faith and faith means one uphold His teachings and His laws James 1:22, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, not recreate them.

does not the language "new creation" tell us the Gen 1 creation was actually pointing to this? Is this not a salvation metaphor?

Of course we do, that is why we have God’s Word - it’s the light to our path Psalms 119:105. If we don’t understand God’s law, then there is no consistency- each to make up their own version which we are told not to do. Proverbs 3:5-6 God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33 there is one God and one people all are grafted in through faith, those who have faith live differently than those who don’t, which is why we are called to test ourselves- are we in the faith? Does someone with faith not only believe what Jesus teaches, but also walks as He did? 1 John 2:6

you would be confusing law written upon a book with law written up our hearts. If you need a book to understand it, then i'ts not written upon our hearts.

Rom 2:14-15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

What aspect of this does it show Gentiles need to read scripture first in order to "do by nature things required by the law". "written upon our hearts" is not book first then understanding, it is innate understanding without having to be told it first.

The Sabbath is no different than any other of the Commandments God wrote and God spoke. Paul said Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Same concept applies to the 4th commandment- Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8-11

Paul tells us Gentiles know it innately without having to read it first so are you saying Paul is conflicting himself? v6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." in v7 Paul declares his love for the law and that it has shown him a standard that has guided him away from sin, as a Jew he grew up serving the law and doesn't see that as wasted but beneficial to his service in Christ. Yet he does not say this to void his previous thoughts that "we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." This also does not apply to those who have no exposure to the law and they must listen to the law written upon their hearts. It's like going to school, to leave school either you drop out or graduate. The former is looked at as wasted and useless, the latter is honorable and gives us credentials for the post-school phase. Paul is addressing the latter so as not to be confused with the former.

 

[Leaf473]

In other words, it's the same law, the same Ten Commandments written in the heart, not some different abstract view of the law. i.e. There is no leeway here, no gray area.

Do you mean only the Ten Commandments? If not, what other instructions are written on our hearts? Are you able to provide scripture references for those other instructions? The places where those other instructions are written in the scriptures?

This came to my mind, from Deuteronomy 23
He who is emasculated by crushing or cutting shall not enter into the Lord's assembly.

 

[Leaf473]

If you need a book to understand it, then i'ts not written upon our hearts.

True! And when the original prophecy was given in Jeremiah's time, most people were illiterate. Which of course was true throughout most of History until modern times in some places.

In Nehemiah 8, Ezra reads the law, and the Levites have to explain it.
...and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law; and the people stayed in their place. They read in the book, in the law of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, so that they understood the reading.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Day 1, God speaks light into darkness

are you saying this is not pointing to any abstract spiritual concept?

It's a literal event, could there be some metaphors here, yes, but that does not change the literal event. Not everything can be spiritualized away.

you would be confusing law written upon a book with law written up our hearts. If you need a book to understand it, then i'ts not written upon our hearts.

Sure you do, Paul said so in clear words Romans 7:7. It's not what we think is righteous that matters- it God's righteousness Psalms 119:172

If we start defining our own version of the law of God written in the heart, can lead one down to a dangerous path...

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

Rom 2:14-15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
What aspect of this does it show Gentiles need to read scripture first in order to "do by nature things required by the law". "written upon our hearts" is not book first then understanding, it is innate understanding without having to be told it first. Paul tells us Gentiles know it innately without having to read it first so are you saying Paul is conflicting himself?

In times of ignorance God winks Acts 17:30-31 , but we do have the law now- we all have access to scripture so we can't use this excuse to not obey what God asks.

v6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." in v7 Paul declares his love for the law and that it has shown him a standard that has guided him away from sin, as a Jew he grew up serving the law and doesn't see that as wasted but beneficial to his service in Christ. Yet he does not say this to void his previous thoughts that "we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." This also does not apply to those who have no exposure to the law and they must listen to the law written upon their hearts. It's like going to school, to leave school either you drop out or graduate. The former is looked at as wasted and useless, the latter is honorable and gives us credentials for the post-school phase. Paul is addressing the latter so as not to be confused with the former.

We are not released from the law- Paul is not contradicting himself- what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 or Jesus Matthew 7:21-23. What Paul is saying if we are living in the Spirit in Christ, we are released from the condemnation of the law. There is no condemnation when keeping God's commandments through love and faith 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31- the wages of sin is death- keeping God's commandments releases us from the bondage of sin and to live freely in Christ Spirit in obedience to Him John 14:15-18

This really sums it up....

Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Isaiah 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

We receive warning after warning to obey God's commandments yet, people choose not to believe..... when Jesus comes we really can't say we were not warned. Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15 Matthew 19:17-19

Anyway, I am sure we will not agreee and all will get sorted out soon enough. I wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

 

[Leaf473]

Would anyone here who believes that specific laws are written on our hearts be willing to reproduce them in a post?

 

[DamianWarS]

It's a literal event, could there be some metaphors here, yes, but that does not change the literal event. Not everything can be spiritualized away.

what has more significant for you?

Gen 1:3-4
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

or

1 Cor 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

strictly in a literal vacuum Gen 1:3-4 is a static event with no impact on our lives, in fact the entire creation account has little impact on our lives except that it happened but affirming it happened doesn't benefit us greater. Where 1 Cor 4:6 has an immense impact over our lives and accepting that truth has exceedingly great benefit. The thing is they both mean the same thing. Comparatively, the physical event is less meaningful than the spiritual value of God speaking light into darkness. This is no different than the 7th day. The physical day of rest as per the 7th day of creation may have some value but is paled in comparison to its spiritual impact. that impact on a personal level is the completed work of Christ in us ushering in the 7th day rest in our lives.

Sure you do, Paul said so in clear words Romans 7:7. It's not what we think is righteous that matters- it God's righteousness Psalms 119:172

If we start defining our own version of the law of God written in the heart, can lead one down to a dangerous path...

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

I'm not defining the law written upon our hearts but neither does a written code. law written upon our hearts pre-dates written code and is innate in our design as humans. I use scripture to determine these values, not my own definition and the creation account shows us how before any written code light was sent to fill the darkness that started a process ending in completion.

In times of ignorance God winks Acts 17:30-31 , but we do have the law now- we all have access to scripture so we can't use this excuse to not obey what God asks.

there are thousands of unengaged and unreached people groups in the world who have never had exposure to the gospel. What do you say to those people? what is the law written upon their hearts?

We are not released from the law- Paul is not contradicting himself- what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 or Jesus Matthew 7:21-23. What Paul is saying if we are living in the Spirit in Christ, we are released from the condemnation of the law. There is no condemnation when keeping God's commandments through love and faith 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31- the wages of sin is death- keeping God's commandments releases us from the bondage of sin and to live freely in Christ Spirit in obedience to Him John 14:15-18

This really sums it up....

Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Isaiah 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

We receive warning after warning to obey God's commandments yet, people choose not to believe..... when Jesus comes we really can't say we were not warned. Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15 Matthew 19:17-19

Anyway, I am sure we will not agreee and all will get sorted out soon enough. I wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

Paul tells us explicitly we are released from the law. He indeed does not contradict himself which would seem to be a conflict that you need to wrestle with. You can't just quote verses with the word "commandments" in them and conflate them with your argument. That is not critical engagement as you have yet to establish the definition of "commandments" in these contexts. 1 Cor 7:19 tell us "keeping God’s commands is what counts". Gal 5:6 and Gal 6:15 are mirror copies of this verse. They have the same meaning so it gives us insight as to "what counts". According to Gal 5:6 and Gal 6:15 "commandments of God" means "faith expressing itself through love" (5:6) and "the new creation" 5:16. This is the meaning of "commandments of God" according to 1 Cor 7:19.

The word Paul uses in Rom 7:6 can is "katargeó" and it's translated use is "(a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from." I'm sure you see the word "abolish" and want to quote Mat 5:17 but Mat 5:17 does uses the word "kataluó" not "katargeó". the former is far more aggressive word and akin to displeasure, it is also not the word used in Rom 7:6. Christ did not come to kataluó the law and the prophets, but according to Paul he did come to katargeó us from the law. the word is appropriately translated as "release" and it is the most commonly translated word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

what has more significant for you?

Gen 1:3-4
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

or

1 Cor 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

No need to pit scripture against scripture. Light can mean different things in scripture. God just didn't speak light or day or night into existence, He spoke all of Creation into existence.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Which means if we go outside of scripture, its not coming from God.

The creation account does not change the 4th commandment, which seems to be the argument you're trying to make, scripture does not delete scripture (like 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15) all scripture harmonizes, and God's law is not something we can spiritualize away i.e., not follow. I guess we can, but we have warnings not to.

 

[DamianWarS]

No need to pit scripture against scripture. Light can mean different things in scripture. God just didn't speak light or day or night into existence, He spoke all of Creation into existence.

2 Cor 4:6 tells us what light means. I'm not just making this up. light and darkness are also some of the most power metaphors used in the scripture. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, and it would seem you're denying the spiritual meaning within God speaking light into darkness on Day 1, if not denying trying hard to avoid agreeing with that statement. This is biblical revealed so I'm not sure what the resistance is

The creation account does not change the 4th commandment, which seems to be the argument you're trying to make, scripture does not delete scripture (like 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15) all scripture harmonizes, and God's law is not something we can spiritualize away i.e., not follow. I guess we can, but we have warnings not to.

There are many "commandments" in the bible yet you have chosen a select few to cover "God's commandments" in 1 Cor 7:19. So why is it I'm the one deleting scripture? Have I not shown scriptural support for the meaning of "commandments" in 1 Cor 7:19? 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 have the same meaning and cannot be in conflict with each other. Galatians doesn't add on to 7:19 it is the same meaning as 7:19. I didn't write it, these are in plain sight and it would be irresponsible of us to avoid these Galatians when considering 1 Cor 7:19.

I am also speaking of "laws written upon our hearts" not laws written in stone. I am not "spiritualizing away" anything but we need to address the elephant in the room, "laws written upon our heart" is not something written down first so that we may understand it. We should have an innate understanding of these laws, if we do not, then it is not written upon our hearts. Natural morals and inclinations are not this way because we make it up, we are designed with a signature of God that calls to us, and it is that call that writes upon our hearts. If we have to be told something to follow it, this is implicit proof it is not written upon our hearts. Otherwise, why bother even having laws written upon our hearts if the written code already exists? it is because those two are not the same thing, if they were the same the latter is superfluous and redundant.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

2 Cor 4:6 tells us what light means. I'm not just making this up. light and darkness are also some of the most power metaphors used in the scripture. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, and it would seem you're denying the spiritual meaning within God speaking light into darkness on Day 1, if not denying trying hard to avoid agreeing with that statement. This is biblical revealed so I'm not sure what the resistance is

As stated a few times, I am not denying any spiritual meaning, but it doesn't take away the literal meaning, which can't be ignored either. Creation was very literal which is why we are all here.

There are many "commandments" in the bible yet you have chosen a select few to cover "God's commandments" in 1 Cor 7:19. So why is it I'm the one deleting scripture? Have I not shown scriptural support for the meaning of "commandments" in 1 Cor 7:19? 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 have the same meaning and cannot be in conflict with each other. Galatians doesn't add on to 7:19 it is the same meaning as 7:19. I didn't write it, these are in plain sight and it would be irresponsible of us to avoid these Galatians when considering 1 Cor 7:19.

1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6, Gal 6:15 If they all have the same meaning, then keeping God's commandments is a given. These three quotes are not the same meaning, but they lead to the same thing- you cannot say in one breath they have the same meaning, but in that same breath delete the meaning that doesn't agree with your philosophy, that is deleting scripture with scripture and its not the case, these scriptures all harmonize with their own meanings and one does not delete or change the meaning of the other.

I am also speaking of "laws written upon our hearts" not laws written in stone. I am not "spiritualizing away" anything but we need to address the elephant in the room, "laws written upon our heart" is not something written down first so that we may understand it. We should have an innate understanding of these laws, if we do not, then it is not written upon our hearts. Natural morals and inclinations are not this way because we make it up, we are designed with a signature of God that calls to us, and it is that call that writes upon our hearts. If we have to be told something to follow it, this is implicit proof it is not written upon our hearts. Otherwise, why bother even having laws written upon our hearts if the written code already exists? it is because those two are not the same thing, if they were the same the latter is superfluous and redundant.

Would Jesus be teaching "commandments not written in the heart?" God, Jesus and His Spirit are not at odds with each other as the scripture shows. Jesus clearly tells us which commandments if we allow scripture to interpret scripture....

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

This is almost an exact quote verbatim from the Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

But if that's not clear enough when Jesus was asked which commandments to keep He quotes directly from the Ten Commandments...

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Jesus condemned those who keep their own laws over the commandments of God again quoting right from the unit of Ten.

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Jesus teaches us not to break the least of the commandments or to teach others but instead tells us to teach each other the commandments again quoting right from the Ten...

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, You fool!’ shall be in danger of [hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

​

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

There is really no doubt that the law of God written in the heart includes the Ten Commandments. Jesus came to magnify the law, which means to make greater and shows an example of this right in the Ten Commandments. Walking in the Spirit means one is keeping the commandments of God not breaking them. Romans 8:4-8 And as @Freth pointed out in Romans 2:12-24 there really is no wiggle room that the Ten Commandments are part the law of God written in the heart and mind. It's really not a new concept though, God's law has always been meant to keep through love. Psalms 40:8 Ezekiel 11:19 Ezekiel 36:26 Jer 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 1 John 5:3

 

[Soyeong]

what does written upon our hearts mean? we can't abandon logic just to satisfy our traditions. So we shouldn't just superimpose whatever law as law upon our hearts if it simply doesn't make sense. laws written upon our hearts are inherently natural laws, laws that we don't have to be told to know they exist. For example, I don't need to be told not to steal, murder or lie to know these are things I do not want to happen to me. These are universal morals and they are universal because that's the way we are designed, hence the "written upon the heart" aspect.

When it comes to laws with a focus towards God I still believe that within us all is a longing to connect with our creator even if we reject it there is still a void, or incompleteness of us all that can only be filled by God. Perhaps anecdotal but I don't think an unpopular perspective among Christians or monotheists at large. If we believe in God then it only makes sense that we are designed to worship him too.

Sabbath is also written upon our hearts but in order to understand what this means we have to eliminate the aspects of the Sabbath that we have to be told to understand because these things are not naturally understood and therefor cannot be written upon our hearts. A system of ritual rest performed once a week on a certain day are all things we need to be told to understand so that we may follow. The following may still be good, but these aspects of the sabbath are not written upon our hearts because, without the knowledge of this information, we are ignorant of it.

So what aspect of Sabbath is written upon our hearts? it goes back to the 7th day. the values of the 7th day extend to the completion of the creation. 7 itself is a number of completion and it is regarded this way because of creation. God does not cease work because he is tired, he ceases because the work is finished. and it is this finished work that ushers in the completion of the 7th day. the 7th day is the antithesis to before creation, contrasting light/darkness, complete/incomplete, full/empty, etc... indeed a power spiritual metaphor regarding the process of salvation upon our own lives.

it is this longing and desire for completion that is "written upon our hearts". This is something we do not need to be told in order to know it and it is often said that without God people feel empty or have a void within them that cannot be filled. It is not just salvation that fills this void, light spoken into darkness triggers the new creation within us, but the goal is the work of Christ within us to be complete to usher in the 7th day and this is the universal desire that is written upon all our hearts. if we look to verbatim etched-in-stone law as that focus then we've misunderstood what "written upon our hearts" actually means.

The Bible repeatedly speaks our hearts being circumcised or written upon in regard to obeying the Torah, such as in Deuteronomy 10:12-16, Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Jeremiah 31:33, and Psalms 40:8. In particular, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His mishpatim and chukim. The mishpatim are laws in regard to justice and righteousness that are often found in other societies that straightforwardly make sense why God commanded them, which is what you are essentially referring to as natural law. The chukim are laws that don't straightforwardly make sense why God commanded them, which we should still obey even when we don't understand why God commanded them because we love God, we have faith in him, the Spirit leads us to obey them, and if for no other reason that God is sovereign. The Bible does not distinguish between which laws are written on our hearts and which are not as you have done, but rather the Spirit leads us to obey them. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God's law, so all of His laws are inherently universal moral laws.

 

[DamianWarS]

The Bible repeatedly speaks our hearts being circumcised or written upon in regard to obeying the Torah, such as in Deuteronomy 10:12-16, Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Jeremiah 31:33, and Psalms 40:8. In particular, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His mishpatim and chukim. The mishpatim are laws in regard to justice and righteousness that are often found in other societies that straightforwardly make sense why God commanded them, which is what you are essentially referring to as natural law. The chukim are laws that don't straightforwardly make sense why God commanded them, which we should still obey even when we don't understand why God commanded them because we love God, we have faith in him, the Spirit leads us to obey them, and if for no other reason that God is sovereign. The Bible does not distinguish between which laws are written on our hearts and which are not as you have done, but rather the Spirit leads us to obey them. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God's law, so all of His laws are inherently universal moral laws.

your logic would assume the entire law, not a select chosen few. the NT is clear physical circumcision is not required. yet physical circumcision is a covenant sign between Abraham and God, everlasting and for generations (Gen 15) almost mirror langauge to the Sabbath as a covenant sign between Israel and God, also everlasting for generations to come (Ex 31). So we quickly dismiss circumcision but isolate a select few? then use verses that are inclusive of the entire law, even use words like "Torah" or ambiguous verses to prop up a select few but dismiss the rest? Torah is not a synonym for the 10 commandments, it's the whole thing but this inconsistency seems to not matter and you feel free to define it as you chose in the name of keeping a tradition because it's only tradition that would reduce the Torah to a select few.

Either we keep Torah or we don't, there is no in-between of keeping only a select few (James 2:10). Torah itself is inclusive of the entire sacrificial law but even without that, you know as well as I do there are many laws within the Torah we simply do not keep nor teach. But I guess that's different and you are free to decide that what the bible really means is a select few laws without any biblical sources to justify an isolation like this. Why should I respect such anarchy of logic?

Paul tells us the Gentiles have a law written upon their hearts (Rom 2) that they naturally keep. this is explictly without Torah yet he called it a law written upon their hearts. Did God not write it upon their hearts? I don't see how this can be so quickly used to prop up the 10 as it would seem to counter isolating the 10 which are not all naturally understood.... oh don't forget the dietary laws... What is the methodology for choosing these select laws?