worship created

[2ducklow]

Romans 1:25 3748οίτινες the ones who 3337μετήλλαξαν changed over 3588την the 225αλήθειαν truth 3588 του 2316 θεού of God 1722 ενin 3588τω the 5579ψεύδει lie, 2532και and 4573εσεβάσθησαν worshiped 2532και and 3000ελάτρευσαν served 3588τη to the 2937κτίσει created thing 3844παρά over 3588τον the one 2936κτίσαντα having created it, 3739ος who 1510.2.3εστινis 2128ευλογητός blessed 1519εις into 3588τους the 165αιώνας eons. 281αμήν Amen.

Romans 1:25 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear


Trinitarians like to believe us non Trinitarians aren't even Christians because they interpret, change, interpolate, translate badly etc. certain scriptures to mean that there is a trinity. It presumes that Jesus is God and if we don't worship Jesus as God then we are not saved.

BUT, if Jesus is a created being, and scripture says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, of many brethren( who are all new creations), and other scriptures; then, worshiping Jesus as the creator would be very bad according to Romans 1.25.

Romans 1.25 the ones who changed over the truth of God the lie and worshiped (reverential awe is the real meaning) and served to the created over the one having created who blessed into the ages.

Now if you read Romans chapter one, it is abundantly clear that God is talking about Christians who God gave up on.


romans 1.25 Inasmuch as, having come to know God, not, as God, did they glorify him, or give him thanks, but were made fruitless in their reasonings, and darkened was their undiscerning heart,

"Having come to know God". That means they are Christians. But they didn't glorify God as God, they glorified the created as God. Now ask yourself the question, what created have Christians glorified as God? the answer is obvious, it's Jesus.
who could it possibly be that was made fruitless in their reasonings ? Trinity of course, Trinitarians have tried ever since it's conception to try and make it reasonable.


Romans 1.
1:23 And, exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man, and of birds and fourfooted beasts and reptiles

Jesus was a corruptible man, Jesus could have failed, he could have sinned. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are by Satan, because Satan knew Jesus could be corrupted. Jesus succeeded though and never was corrupted. The fact that Jesus could sin , amongst many other things, means Jesus could not have been god.
This verse is painting worship of Jesus as the creator, in the same category as what the Egyptians did with their created Gods.


well that;'s what I'm seeing in Romans 1. So we both have guns pointed at our heads, I have the Trinitarian doctrine that belief in trinity saves, and you Trinitarians have romans 1.25 pointed at your head, though I don't believe it means you won't be saved, I think it means that eventually God will deal with those who have that doctrine the way he said he would in romans 1. So either choice one makes, Jesus is God, or Jesus is created of God, results (so to speak) in a gun pointed at your head. This fact should cause one to be extremely careful in their decision process regarding whether Jesus was a created human being, or God. It should cause on to disregard what the majority believes in their though processes, because this is serious business.

IN my opinion , the church of Jesus Christ are the dry bones on the valley floor that God will breath life into in these final days, and those who refuse to give up false doctrine, will not be revived.

 

[2ducklow]

the thought just came to my mind that the reason all the horrible things happened in and to the church after the apostles died out is because Christians began to worship the created as the creator. So god sent, in a measure, the things in Romans 1 on them. Then came the reformation, which God is using to draw his people out of darkness and into light. The reformation is still ongoing. God is very patient with us, but one day his patience will run out.

 

[Ripheus27]

If this were true, every Trinitarian would be guilty of at least one (or three, haha) "major" sin(s). Or, no Trinitarian could be a very good person, even if not all were very evil. But there have been many extremely compassionate and helpful and so on Trinitarians. So the by-your-fruit-you-will-know-them rule, Trinitarianism still passes the test of.

 

[2ducklow]

If this were true, every Trinitarian would be guilty of at least one (or three, haha) "major" sin(s). Or, no Trinitarian could be a very good person, even if not all were very evil. But there have been many extremely compassionate and helpful and so on Trinitarians. So the by-your-fruit-you-will-know-them rule, Trinitarianism still passes the test of.

I explained what you brought up, and you just ignored my explanation. But to restate it in a slightly different light, Things like the inquisition are a result of worshiping the created as the creator. and murder is one of the things listed that result from worshiping the created as the creator. It was a sort of plague that descended gradually on all of Christianity after the apostles day. lAnd as I said, god sent the reformation to his church to save them from that sort of plague. But ,as I said and you ignored, god is patient with us and is withholding it's full force while he trys and saye and draw us out of worshiping the created instead of the creator.

Plus it's to some extent a mixed bag. while Trinitarians worship the created (Jesus) instead of the creator, they also worship the creator (God the Father). So trinitarianism didn't take the church full force out of worshiping the creator, only partially by worshiping the created (Jesus) as the creator.

There's a lot of evil things that happened from Christians throughout it's history, and I believe they are partially to be blamed on their worship of the created ((Jesus) as the creator. Certainly there is some reason for dastardly deeds such as the inquisition, genocide in southern france, the Nazi regime being supported by some Christians, etc.

 

[drstevej]

So are worshipers of Jesus idolaters?

 

[Ripheus27]

What I meant was that every Trinitarian would be an extreme sinner if belief in the doctrine was evil. Since not every Trinitarian is an extreme sinner, belief in the doctrine is not evil.

 

[2ducklow]

What I meant was that every Trinitarian would be an extreme sinner if belief in the doctrine was evil. Since not every Trinitarian is an extreme sinner, belief in the doctrine is not evil.

another mitigating factor is that most Christians don't worship Jesus as God in practice. Few songs of praise identify Jesus as God, most identify God the Father as God, most Christians pray to the father in Jesus name,

my point is these mitigating factors limit the applicability of the judgements God sends on those who worship Jesus,, a created, as God. If Christians totally worshiped Jesus as God, then those plague like things would come full force, BUT, God is working to take that false doctrine away, and one day, as I said, his patience will run out.

another factor is Christians don't worship god and they don't worship Jesus, not in the biblical sense of the word. Christians don't bow down to God as god and they don't bow down to Jesus as God or as anything. So that also partially saves them.

Christians are saved to some extent because they don't worship anyone. they don't bow down to anyone period. Although, the word translated as worship in romans 1.25 really means reverential awe. I haven't researched that word yet to know if it is too another cover up translation, like the other greek word translated worship is. I have my suspicions though.

Strong's G4573

σεβάζομαι
sebazomai
seb-ad'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from a derivative of G4576; to venerate, that is, adore

http://studybible.info/search/KJV/g4573

there's something about that translation of the word that is changed to worship by most. venerate? adore? If it means adore then why not use the word that means adore? something fishy going on here. also looks like the word only occurs once in romans 1.25.

<A-3,Verb,4573,sebazomai>
akin to No. 2, "to honor religiously," is used in Rom. 1:25.

http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines.pl?word=worship

Thayer's Definition
1. to fear, be afraid
2. to honour religiously, to worship




&#963;&#949;&#946;-&#940;&#950;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;,

Ep. aor. &#963;&#949;&#946;&#940;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#959; Il. 6.167, 417; &#7952;&#963;&#949;&#946;&#940;&#963;&#952;&#951;&#957; AP 7.122, Ep.Romans 1:25 : &#8212;

to be afraid of, c. acc., &#963;&#949;&#946;&#940;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#959; &#947;&#8048;&#961; &#964;&#972; &#947;&#949; &#952;&#965;&#956;&#8183; Il. ll.cc.

2. later, = &#963;&#941;&#946;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;, &#958;&#949;&#8150;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#952;&#945;&#957;&#972;&#957;&#964;&#945; Orph. A. 550; &#952;&#949;&#972;&#957; Jul. Gal. 354b .

http://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/gwview.cgi?n=4573
I was right, something funny going on here. these last two sources above define it as fear.

Worshipped (4573) (sebazomai from sébas = reverential awe <> sébomai (4576), to shrink from, to worship religiously. ) expresses in attitude and ritual one&#8217;s allegiance to and regard for deity. Reverential awe. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship. To give honor to. Sebázomai denotes religious expressions of veneration in particular as well as reverential behavior in general.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_124-32.htm#1:25

ok now we have yet another def. shrink from. It's beginning to appear that the translators aren't real sure exactly what that word means. shrink from, worship, fear, reverential awe, adore. I don't know what to think about the word now.

In the present context sebazomai means that they stood in awe of their idols, showed reverence to them (means to respect and esteem but also implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe), venerated them and worshipped them. In short they gave honor to their idols instead of to God.

TDNT on the cognate sebomai - The Greek World - 1. Homeric Usage. In tune with the sense of the stem (&#8220;to fall back before&#8221, Homer first uses this term for &#8220;to shrink from&#8221; The idea of shrinking from the gods leads to the sense of awe or reverence, first in the general form of respect, then in the more specifically religious form of veneration. 2. Classical and Hellenistic Usage. The meaning &#8220;to shrink from&#8221; still occurs, but respect is commonly the sense, e.g., for beauty or majesty, for country, parents, the dead, heroes, or benefactors, and, of course, the gods. Relative to the gods, the term takes an active turn and comes to be used not for mere reverence but for worship as a cultic act.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_124-32.htm#1:25

ok this last quote clears it up a bit. shrink from means something like bow down. they just change it to what they think the reasons someone would shrink from (bow down) to God, which is why there's so many diferent definitions for one word, Every translator has his own idea why someone should shrink or bow down to God. Ok I get it now. see to shrink from something is to bow over. So translate it something else so Christians won't know about shrinking (bowing over) to God. neat trick.

 

[drstevej]

another mitigating factor is that most Christians don't worship Jesus as God in practice.

I do. Am I an idolater.

 

[Ripheus27]

If it means adore then why not use the word that means adore? something fishy going on here. also looks like the word only occurs once in romans 1.25.

Adoration is what the RCC reserves for God; veneration is allowed for lesser beings. "Adorable" used to have a much different sense than as in "an adorable kitten."

 

[drstevej]

*crickets*

 

[Der Alte]

The problem with the OP is the title first born does not necessarily designate the one born before his siblings. It can be bestowed on anyone the "father" chooses. And can even designate one that was not even born, i.e. the nation Israel, Ex 4:22.

Israel, Ex 4:22; Simri,1 Chron 26:10; David, Psa 89:27; Ephraim, Jer 31:9.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

Israel was not the first and not even born but chosen.

Deut 25:6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.​

The second son is made firstborn when the elder dies.

1 Chronicles 26:10 Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief​

The second son made firstborn by his father.

Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him [David] my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David chosen as firstborn, by God, although he was not the eldest of his brothers.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim called firstborn, by God, although not the oldest son.

 

[2ducklow]

Adoration is what the RCC reserves for God; veneration is allowed for lesser beings. "Adorable" used to have a much different sense than as in "an adorable kitten."

you responded too quick, I put lots more info in that post. the source I got all that info from is great. you should save it.

 

[RevelationTestament]

The problem with the OP is the title first born does not necessarily designate the one born before his siblings. It can be bestowed on anyone the "father" chooses. And can even designate one that was not even born, i.e. the nation Israel, Ex 4:22.

Israel, Ex 4:22; Simri,1 Chron 26:10; David, Psa 89:27; Ephraim, Jer 31:9.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

Israel was not the first and not even born but chosen.

Deut 25:6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.​

The second son is made firstborn when the elder dies.

1 Chronicles 26:10 Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief​

The second son made firstborn by his father.

Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him [David] my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David chosen as firstborn, by God, although he was not the eldest of his brothers.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim called firstborn, by God, although not the oldest son.

God often did not ordain the firstborn child to be his prophets... quite often...

 

[RevelationTestament]

the thought just came to my mind that the reason all the horrible things happened in and to the church after the apostles died out is because Christians began to worship the created as the creator. So god sent, in a measure, the things in Romans 1 on them. Then came the reformation, which God is using to draw his people out of darkness and into light. The reformation is still ongoing. God is very patient with us, but one day his patience will run out.

Jesus as Elohim was the creator from the beginning in Genesis and said with the Father let us make man in our image. All the words there are plural and translated correctly. It is you friend who are on the outside of the truth here. You strain at gnats to avoid the truth I have pointed you to in Hebrews, Psalms and Isaiah. Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was and is our creator, not God's created.

 

[2ducklow]

It's beginning to look like God protects his people from themselves by blinding their eyes to the true meaning of the words erroneously translated as worship. God doesn't want his people to bow down, prostrate, or shrink from (bow over) to Jesus as God. So he blinded their eyes to the true meaning of those words. The result is that Christians don't worship God or Jesus, not in the biblical sense of the word. And Christians willingly go along with this blindness sent them by God. Better to not worship God than to worship JEsus as God and get all those horrible plague like things listed in romans 1.

Which means I'm fightinig against God in that he want's this blindness on his people for their own protection. But on the other hand when God sends blindness, I'm not going to be able to raise it.

 

[drstevej]

So are worshipers of Jesus idolaters?

Any takers?

 

[2ducklow]

Yea, I remember telling my pastor like30 years ago that Christians don't worship God. He came unglued when I told him. Read my letter before the whole congregation, ridiculed it, And I was just a basking in all that attention. It was great.

If god's people were to actually worship God, bow down to him, well they'd be bowing down to Jesus as God as well. And God would have to pour out that condemnation listed in romans 1 if they did. Yep God want's his people blind to that truth.

It's really sad that Christians don't worship God, but it saves them from a horrible fate. Hopefully I haven't enlightened anyone about what worship really is. Nah, nobody listens to me.

 

[Ripheus27]

Any takers?

"Christolatry is idolatry," would be inferred from the OP.

 

[2ducklow]

well that was fun, getting this issue nailed down real good. If anybody has serious input I'll be glad to respond. I'm thinking of investigatingall the words that are falsely translated as worship. That should be interesting.

 

[drstevej]

I found this statement: "It's really sad that Christians don't worship God" both inaccurate and offensive. You twist our theology than slam us for holding your straw man.