Works Salvation is False

HSong · Feb 3, 2023

Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

d taylor · Feb 3, 2023

-

Works do not prove a person has trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. There are more than likely, many who have a great resume of works, but have never trusted in The Messiah.

Justification by Works for Baptists (James 2:14-26) – Grace Evangelical Society

fhansen · Feb 3, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The church, in line with Scripture, has historically held that once freely justified by God as we turn to Him in faith we now can, and must, live justly, as children of His should, producng fruit befitting that status: doing good, overcoming sin, becoming holy, growing in and expressing love in order to inherit and guarantee eternal life. If that isn't the result of your faith then it's worthless; we don't even know Him.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 4, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I agree. Works for salvation is false.

Works from salvation is true.
Blessings

fhansen · Feb 4, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
I agree. Works for salvation is false.

Works from salvation is true.
Blessings

And salvation without works…will be lost.

Clare73 · Feb 4, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.

Your "thus" does not necessarily follow your premise ("whoever hears").

HSong said:
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Bowing and confessing, which will include both unbelievers and Satan, do not mean changed and submissive hearts, but simply acknowledging reality.

Just as acknowledging reality that your team lost the game ("bowing and confessing") does not mean you believe their team is the better team.

HSong said:
We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Cassian · Feb 4, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Scripture does not agree with your statements.
We are not saved by faith. We are justified by faith. All that means is that we believe that Jesus is the Christ who was Incarnated for our sakes and saved us from the power of death and sin.

This is not salvation. A Christian possesses or has assurances of salvation IF, and it is an very big IF we are faithful to the end. We are being saved through our faith. All those works you refer are evidences of our faith. We are commanded to live righteously, to do good, to walk according to His will. We are to perfect ourselves. The more works of faith increases our righteousness. IF we maintain our faith we shall inherit eternal life.
The problem for man is that we still have our sinful natures to contend with. Our flesh is in constant battle with our Spirit. Many have fallen because they lost faith. One cannot lose salvation, which I hear many say, because you never had it finitely, permanently in this present temporal world.
Paul calls it the law of faith. Those works that were created for believers to do.
You also seemed to imply that this "faith alone" also absolves all the sins of a person (believer) past, present and future. Others have actually stated such. Scripture never states, implies that this happens. Every sin we commit is ours until we confess that sin, so it can and will be forgiven,. Sin done and not confessed can have catastrophic results.

Clare73 · Feb 4, 2023

Cassian said:
Scripture does not agree with your statements.
We are not saved by faith.

Like repentance (2 Ti 2:25, Ac 11:18, Ac 5:31), faith is a gift of grace (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9), a gift of grace.
We are justified (declared forensically righteous) by faith (Ro 3:28), a gift of grace.

By the gift of faith, which is of grace, we are both saved and justified (declared forensically righteous).

Salvation through the gift of faith by grace and justification (forensic righteousness) by the gift of faith are both opposed to works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28). Faith and works are mutually exclusive in both salvation and justification.

Cassian said:
We are justified by faith. All that means is that we believe that Jesus is the Christ who was Incarnated for our sakes and saved us from the power of death and sin.

This is not salvation. A Christian possesses or has assurances of salvation IF, and it is an very big IF we are faithful to the end. We are being saved through our faith. All those works you refer are evidences of our faith. We are commanded to live righteously, to do good, to walk according to His will. We are to perfect ourselves. The more works of faith increases our righteousness. IF we maintain our faith we shall inherit eternal life.
The problem for man is that we still have our sinful natures to contend with. Our flesh is in constant battle with our Spirit. Many have fallen because they lost faith. One cannot lose salvation, which I hear many say, because you never had it finitely, permanently in this present temporal world.
Paul calls it the law of faith. Those works that were created for believers to do.
You also seemed to imply that this "faith alone" also absolves all the sins of a person (believer) past, present and future. Others have actually stated such. Scripture never states, implies that this happens. Every sin we commit is ours until we confess that sin, so it can and will be forgiven,. Sin done and not confessed can have catastrophic results.

Cassian · Feb 4, 2023

Clare73 said:
Like repentance (2 Ti 2:25, Ac 11:18, Ac 5:31), faith is a gift of grace (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Citing some texts does not explain your reasoning or understanding of them. I see nothing in any of them that states a believer has been saved in this temporal existence.

Clare73 said:
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9), a gift of grace.
We are justified (declared forensically righteous) by faith (Ro 3:28), a gift of grace.

You should have stopped with your first citation. We are certainly saved through faith. But the point of scripture is that we must hold fast to that faith, we must grow, mature, and if one is faithful one will inherit eternal life. IPet 1:3-5.
Your phrase "declared forensically righteous" is a carryover of the Roman insertion of a wholly new theory with Anselm and Abalard in the 11 century. He also employed Augustine's false theory of Original Sin, all of which was incorporated into all Protestant teachings- known as the Satisfaction theory of atonement".
The word "justify" simply means "to make right", it has the same meaning as righteous, or reconcile. One is not granted salvation.

Clare73 said:
By the gift of faith, which is of grace, we are both saved and justified (declared forensically righteous).

We are neither saved, not declared forensically righteous, but we are made or accounted righteous.

Clare73 said:
Salvation through the gift of faith by grace and justification (forensic righteousness) by the gift of faith are both opposed to works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28). Faith and works are mutually exclusive in both salvation and justification.

More confusion. Works do not even have a part to play here. A lot of people are confused with what they call works and faith. they juxtapose faith with "works of the law". Some just exclude all and every work or the word work in the entire Bible.
If you simply apply "works of the law" to Christ and what He accomplished for us you won't confuse what man's response should be to the work of Christ, which Paul calls the Works of faith. The works are evidence not of salvation, but of our faith. Which is to believe, thus reconciling ourselves to God or being justified by faith. That is not salvation. Once one believes begins the real work of salvation our personal salvation through faith. We are being saved and what we do in faith is what counts. We will give an account of our deeds. The passage in scripture, called the final judgment is about two groups of people. Those that believe who fed the hungry, clothed the poor, visited the sick were given entry into His Kingdom.
Then there is a group who complain that they did the same thing, yet they were condemned. The difference is faith. Matt 2521-36

Clare73 · Feb 4, 2023

Cassian said:
Citing some texts does not explain your reasoning or understanding of them. I see nothing in any of them that states a believer has been saved in this temporal existence.

Seems the problem here is the NT meaning of "salvation."

NT salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18) on sin,
by the blood, through faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25)
for the remission of that sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., forensic righteousness of justification (Ro 3:28).

Cassian said:
You should have stopped with your first citation. We are certainly saved through faith.

Scripture does not stop there, and stopping when it does not is to miss the correct Biblical meaning,
for Scripture makes it more than clear that faith is not by works (Eph 2:8-9) in salvation,
and that faith is also apart from works of the law (Ro 3:28, Gal 2:16, Gal 3:5, Gal 3:11, Gal 5:4) in justification (forensic righteousness).

Cassian said:
But the point of scripture is that we must hold fast to that faith, we must grow, mature, and if one is faithful one will inherit eternal life. IPet 1:3-5.
Your phrase "declared forensically righteous" is a carryover of the Roman insertion of a wholly new theory with Anselm and Abalard in the 11 century.

Actually, it is not a theory. . .it is the meaning of justification (dikaiosis), an imputed righteousness (Ro 4:1-11), as in Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3), while actual righteousness (dikaiosune) leading to holiness is through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Evidently, Anselm and Abalard are the ones who brought to light the Greek meaning of dikaiosis as forensic righteousness, acquittal of guilt (Ro 4:25, Ro 5:18), where the RSV and the Amplified use "acquittal" in Ro 5:18.

Cassian said:
He also employed Augustine's false theory of Original Sin, all of which was incorporated into all Protestant teachings- known as the Satisfaction theory of atonement".

Well, Anselm also got that from the NT in the complicated passage of Ro 5:12-15, where Paul shows that between Adam and Moses
there was no law (Ro 5:13) with the death penalty attached as there was with Adam (Ro 5:14) in the Garden (Ge 2:17),
and where there is no law, there is no sin taken into account and, therefore, no death penalty applied (Ro 5:13),
yet all died between Adam and Moses when they were under no death penalty for sin (Ro 5:14),
which sin causes "natural" death (Ro 6:23).

So then, of what sin did they all die?
They died of the sin of Adam imputed to them, and which was the pattern for Christ? (Ro 5:14)

Of what could the sinful Adam be the pattern for the righteous Christ?
He was the pattern of imputation.

Just as the sin of (the first) Adam was imputed to all those born of Adam,
so also the righteousness of (the second Adam) Jesus Christ is by faith imputed to all those born of Christ (Ro 5:19),
just as by faith righteousness was also imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

The Biblical meaning of the righteousness (dikaiosis) of justification (Ro 4:25, Ro 5:18--"acquittal" which) is a forensic righteousness, not the actual righteousness (dikaiosune) of sanctification (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Cassian said:
The word "justify" simply means "to make right",

Not in the Greek. . .where justfication (dikaiosis) means a declaration of right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty,
a sentence of acquittal of guilt. . .which is forensic righteousness,
and is not the actual righteousness (dikaiosune) through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness (dikaiosune) leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Cassian said:
it has the same meaning as righteous, or reconcile. One is not granted salvation.

We are neither saved, not declared forensically righteous, but we are made or accounted righteous.

The Biblical meaning of the righteousness of justification (dikaiosis) is a forensic righteousness, not the actual righteousness (dikaiosune) of sanctification (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Cassian said:
More confusion. Works do not even have a part to play here. A lot of people are confused with what they call works and faith. they juxtapose faith with "works of the law". Some just exclude all and every work or the word work in the entire Bible.
If you simply apply "works of the law" to Christ and what He accomplished for us you won't confuse what man's response should be to the work of Christ, which Paul calls the Works of faith. The works are evidence not of salvation, but of our faith. Which is to believe, thus reconciling ourselves to God or being justified by faith. That is not salvation.

The NT meaning of salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18) on sin,
by the blood, through faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25)
for remission of that sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., forensic righteousness of justification (Ro 3:28).
That salvation from condemnation is through faith. . .not by works (Eph 2:8-9)

Cassian said:
Once one believes begins the real work of salvation our personal salvation through faith. We are being saved and what we do in faith is what counts. We will give an account of our deeds. The passage in scripture, called the final judgment is about two groups of people. Those that believe who fed the hungry, clothed the poor, visited the sick were given entry into His Kingdom.
Then there is a group who complain that they did the same thing, yet they were condemned. The difference is faith. Matt 2521-36

Biblically, salvation/redemption is
past - from our sentence of the condemnation of God's wrath (Ro 5:9) to adoption, through faith (Eph 2:8-9),
present - from actual unrighteousness to actual righteousness, through obedience in the Holy Spirit in Christian life (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19),
future - from our sinful bodies to our glorified bodies, through the resurrection (1 Pe 1:5, Heb 9:28, Ro 13:11).

Der Alte · Feb 4, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Even so faith, James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.
Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Faith alone is the seed, to plant the tree, then when it's planted it grows and only then does it become able to bear good fruit, to grow fruit. The SEED which is FAITH ALONE salvation saves us! Not the works, not the fruit! Those are just evidence AFTER the fact! How can good works save us if we are only able to perform good works AFTER we are saved. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do good works before being saved. IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by good works.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ

Works salvation is heresy! It's completely FALSE. As we know, it's not by the law we are saved, but by grace through faith! This is clearly written multiple times in scripture over and over again.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It's an obvious truth, simple, even a child can understand it! Even children can believe in Christ with faith as small as a mustard seed and be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Scripture proves this time and time again. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ washes us away of all of our sins. There's NOTHING no work no commandment no law we can follow to cleanse us of our sins, it's only believing in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous through that faith alone. My brother, you must understand that we are all sinners, every single one of us, no work salvation can save us, only the true righteous faith alone salvation.

How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Christ lived a perfect life, He died for our sins and rose again, that's why we are saved through His sacrifice. NONE of us lived a perfect life. CHRIST lived a perfect life. ALL OF US have sin! Christ has NO sin at all! He is pure perfection in human form and in God form.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith

Works never could save us. Even Abraham, in the Old Testament, how was he saved. Well, he believed in the salvation of God, who is Jesus Christ, and it was counted on him as righteousness. That's how we are saved. Anyone who teaches the false works salvation is leading people astray from Christ!
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Faith alone salvation points people in the accurate direction towards Christ, because the whole process is about Jesus. Jesus saves us, we believe in Jesus and we are saved! All Jesus. There's absolutely zero human works put into it. Charity doesn't save us, donations, don't save us, believing in other religions that aren't Jesus Christ, the Lord, God, don't save us. Only faith alone in Jesus Christ saves us!
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

You know who else teaches works salvation, ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. The Muslims who follow the false belief in Islam, the fake beliefs Hinduists hold, the lies of the Buddhists, the trickery of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deceit of Lordship Salvationists, and the abomination that is Satanism! Yes, some Satanists are humanist secularist atheists (atheism, which is weird because they believe in Satan yet don't believe in God, clearly a contradiction) who think they can do some random charity work and make themselves seen as good. FALSE!!!! False false false completely wrong.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
God justified the Gentiles by FAITH. FAITH!!!! Faith alone in Jesus Christ is what saved them. Abraham believed in God through FAITH and he was saved. Sure, Abraham did many good works for God, but those good works aren't what saved Him, it was the faith alone that Abraham had that saved them. It's the faith alone that Gentiles have in Jesus Christ that washes them with their sins.
Romans 3:24 And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Faith alone salvation is about getting clean, taking a bath, in the spiritual sense. When we have sin, even one, and we all have sin, because we all have Original Sin from the Garden of Eden, then we are dirty. A dirty person can do as much good works as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still DIRTY! UNCLEAN in the eyes of the Lord! How can we get clean? Only the Blood of Jesus Christ that He shed on the cross washes away all our sins!
Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Anyone who teaches works salvation teaches the same false doctrine as literally every other false religion of man. A works salvationist has the same credibility as a Pagan, a Wiccan, an Agnostic in terms of salvation. Nothing we do can ever save us, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ who saves us.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Thus eventually everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and we will all be made CLEAN in the eyes of the Lord. Thus everyone will be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Grace is grace, no matter if we work or not. We are not saved by works. Works salvation is false. We are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Only when someone is saved by faith alone, then they can perform good works. Faith is the seed, good works are the fruit. Good works are not required for salvation at all, it's FAITH ALONE, that's it, the simple Gospel TRUTH! We can only produce the fruit AFTER we believe in Jesus. Because only then are we made clean, only then the Holy Spirit comes into us and we are seen as righteous before the Lord. Without being saved by faith alone, all our good works are FILTHY RAGS!!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It is apparent that a lot of folks do not know or understand the difference between the O.T. works of the law and the N.T. good works as a result of salvation. Faith without works is dead.

Cassian · Feb 4, 2023

Clare73 said:
Seems the problem here is the NT meaning of "salvation."

NT salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18) on sin,

this context is not first about believers. It is about mankind. Adam represents fallen man. It was his sin that caused the death of all humanity eternally. Man was estranged from God and needed saving. Adam destroyed the connection God wanted with the human being(s) He created in His image. This is all about why Christ was needed to restore the universe back to God, for Christ to reconcile this world back to God.
The condemnation to which you refer in Rom 5:18 is the condemnation of death to Adam, thus all mankind.
You can use the word salvation if you wish, but it does not refer directly to believers but to Adam. Rom 5P:9 - the first phrase is referring to God grace to mankind through Christ who justified, reconciled, saved, made righteous sthe entire universe which was under the condemnation of death. Read the rest of the context of Rom 5:12-21.

Clare73 said:
by the blood, through faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25)

There is that "through faith" again. We are being saved, as believers, not have been saved.

Clare73 said:
for the remission of that sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., forensic righteousness of justification (Ro 3:28).

That is what Christ makes possible for believers. Being justified does not mean to be forgiven of ones sins. When one believes the first thing is repentance. The next step is baptism which requires one to ask forgiveness of our past sin. Baptism is dying to the flesh and rising to a new life in the Spirit. We need to seek forgiveness of sins constantly because as believers we still live with this flesh. Our passions are ever seeking to override our spirit. Too remain IN Christ we must confess our sins and He will forgive and keep us right with God.

Clare73 said:
Scripture does not stop there, and stopping when it does not is to miss the correct Biblical meaning,
for Scripture makes it more than clear that faith is not by works (Eph 2:8-9) in salvation,
and that faith is also apart from works of the law (Ro 3:28, Gal 2:16, Gal 3:5, Gal 3:11, Gal 5:4) in justification (forensic righteousness).

You really need to follow what I state. You just reversed entirely what I stated. Neither I not scripture ever states that faith is by works. I specifically stated to understand the protestant conundrum of faith/works to completely leave out the "works of the law" since that is what Christ did for us which we couldn't do anyway.
Justification has never meant some legal rule that automatically forgives a believer of all past, present and future sins. It is specifically sin in our lives that we are continually being warned against, especially in the NT in order to remain faithful, needing constant forgiveness of those sins.
The only place you will find it is in Anselm's Satisfaction theory of atonement.
You will not find anywhere in scripture where Jesus forgives sin on the basis of payment for sin. Forgiveness is not about balancing the books, or a legal requirement. It is about faith, relationship/union with God and God's eternal goodwill and lovingkindness for His creation with which He desires to have union.

Clare73 said:
Actually, it is not a theory. . .it is the meaning of justification (dikaiosis), an imputed righteousness (Ro 4:1-11), as in Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3), while actual righteousness (dikaiosune) leading to holiness is through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Evidently, Anselm and Abalard are the ones who brought to light the Greek meaning of dikaiosis as forensic righteousness.

Quite the contrary. Here is their mistake. The translators of the Latin Vulgate did not have a word to use in place of "to make right". So, they used the legal Roman term, justify, justified, justification. For 900 years the Church which was Greek translated it to mean to make righteous.
Translators of King James Version also accepted the Vulgate interpretation as correct, never checking it with the Greek.

Wherever the adjective dikaios, the verb dikaioo, and the noun dikaiosune occur the translation should use "righteous," "make righteous," and righteousness." The meaning of those words should be derived from the Hebrew idea of a righteous person (tzaddig). Tzaddiq which never has the forensic meaning of being acquitted in a law court. The good news is that the Holy Spirit can perfect us in love, and so make us righteous in the Old Testament sense.

Clare73 said:
Well, Anselm also got that from the NT in the complicated passage of Ro 5:12-15, where Paul shows that between Adam and Moses
there was no law (Ro 5:13) with the death penalty attached as there was with Adam (Ro 5:14) in the Garden (Ge 2:17),
and where there is no law, there is no sin taken into account and, therefore, no death penalty applied (Ro 5:13),
yet all died between Adam and Moses when they were under no death penalty for sin (Ro 5:14),
which sin causes "natural" death (Ro 6:23).

So then, of what sin did they all die?
They died of the sin of Adam imputed to them, and which was the pattern for Christ? (Ro 5:14)

No human being was ever imputed sin. This is the error of Augustine in his theory known as Original Sin. We are not under Adam sin. we are under the condemnation of death due to Adam's sin. Rom 5:12 is quite clear on that issue. We sin because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56.
Now it becomes clear why so many do not understand Rom 5:18-19. There this word justification appears in English Bibles. What was justified, death was justified by Life. That is life to mankind. This is what Christ did for us, defeated death and the power of sin.

Clare73 said:
Of what could the sinful Adam be the pattern for the righteous Christ?

Your pattern is the first Adam brought death, the Second Adam being Incarnate brought life.

Clare73 said:
He was the pattern of imputation.

Just as the sin of (the first) Adam was imputed to all those born of Adam,
so also the righteousness of (the second Adam) Jesus Christ is by faith imputed to all those born of Christ (Ro 5:19),

See above. Neither was imputed. fatih is never in the context here in Rom 5:12-21.

Clare73 said:
just as by faith righteousness was also imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

Not imputed, He was justified by his faith, or in the Greek, was made righteous. It is imparted, It is internal to a believer, becomes part of ones existence. It is NOT an imputed court of law externally.

Clare73 said:
The Biblical meaning of the righteousness of justification (dikaiosis) is a forensic righteousness, not the actual righteousness (dikaiosune) of sanctification (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

See above again. Check your Greek dictionary.

Clare73 said:
Not in the Greek. . .where justfication (dikaiosis) means a declaration of right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty,
a sentence of acquittal of guilt. . .which is forensic righteousness,
and is not the actual righteousness (dikaiosune) through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness (dikaiosune) leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

The Greek meaning is the same throughout the NT.

Clare73 said:
The Biblical meaning of the righteousness of justification (dikaiosis) is a forensic righteousness, not the actual righteousness (dikaiosune) of sanctification (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

The NT meaning of salvation is from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) and condemnation (Ro 5:18) on sin,
by the blood, through faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25)
for remission of that sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., forensic righteousness of justification (Ro 3:28).
That salvation from condemnation is through faith. . .not by works (Eph 2:8-9)

Your confusion on this score is explained above. To add, You are also confused on Eph 2:8-10. When the Bible uses "through faith" that is all about works, works of faith, the law of faith all terms Paul uses. You left out vs 10 which tells us that we, believers, were created for these works and we should walk in them.

Clare73 said:
Biblically, salvation/redemption is
past - from our sentence of condemnation (Ro 5:18) to adoption, through faith (Eph 2:8-9),

Salvation/redemption is complete. It is what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection for the world.
As for our individual salvation that is a work in progress. A believer can loose faith thus loose salvation. Scripture gives us several examples of believers loosing faith and being condemned.

Clare73 said:
present - from actual unrighteousness to actual righteousness, through obedience in the Holy Spirit in Christian life (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19),

Which is works of faith or through faith. No salvation yet, Still in the future. Scripture never puts our personal salvation as having been accomplished. We will inherit it, IF we remain faithful, I Pet 1:3-5.

Clare73 said:
future - from our sinful bodies, through the resurrection to glorified bodies (1 Pe 1:5, Heb 9:28, Ro 13:11).

You got the future correct.

Soyeong · Feb 4, 2023

HSong said:
Works Salvation

Works salvation is salvation that is earned by our works as a wage, and while there are many verses that speak against that incorrect reason for doing works, there are also many verses that speak in favor of correct reasons for why our salvation involves doing works For example, while Paul denied in Romans 4:2-5 that we can earn our justification as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be correct reasons that our justification involves choosing to be doers of the law, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is neither the case that our salvation comes as the result of having done those works or that those works come as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and God's law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents.

HSong said:
Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.

The Bible notably does not state that we are justified by faith alone, but rather it specifically states that we are not justified by faith alone (James 2:21-24). Luther coined the doctrine of salvation by faith alone and he also said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so it involves choosing to do works. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact image of God's nature, which he expressed by living in sinless obedience to God's law, so to put faith in Jesus Christ alone is to put faith in the nature of God through following his example, which is again why Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

HSong said:
When someone is saved, then the Holy Spirit comes into them, then they are able to produce works, which is what James refers to. Works are not the requirement to salvation, they are the evidence of salvation. And what are these good works, these fruit? Being nice to people, loving others, loving God.

In James 2:14, he denied that faith without works can save someone, so he clearly was not speaking about producing after someone has been saved. If everyone who has been saved will show evidence of that by doing works, then works are required.

HSong said:
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Again in Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so Romans 3:28 should not be understood in a way that is contrary to verse 31.

HSong said:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that our salvation is the result of doing works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless an integral part of our salvation.

HSong said:
How was James saved? Through faith alone salvation! How do we know that James was indeed saved? Through His works from the Holy Spirit that dwells within him! It is the Holy Ghost inside us that allows us to perform works of righteousness, because other wise, like Isaiah says, our works are like filthy rags! Filthy being related to menstruations, a female's period blood. We can shed as much blood as we want and it will do nothing to save us, only faith alone in Christ, only Christ's blood saves us.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

If our works were like filthy rags, then that would mean that what God commanded was filthy rags, however, God does not command filthy rags, but rather His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). In Isaiah 64:6, it doesn't say anything about works salvation, and it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people being overly dramatic because God was not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to Gos's law are not children of God, so thet combined with John 1:12 means that obedience to God's law is the way to believe in his name.

HSong said:
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [No longer meaning never.

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned as a wage, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however there are any number of other reasons that someone could do works, which are not incompatible with grace, such as with Titus 2:11-14. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which again is salvation by grace through faith.

HSong said:
I am completely against anyone who leads people astray due to works salvation. It is ANTI-evangelism! The complete opposite of saving people, because we can only be saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ! Amen. That, my friend is the BIBLE TRUTH!
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

In Romans 10:16, it speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel.

HSong said:
Look at this verse!
Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was made known in advance to Abraham. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, all of the promises were made to and brought about because Abraham walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children how to do that, and because his children did that, so that is the way to have faith in the promise.

HSong said:
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life Is by obeying God's commandments, and in Luke 10:25-28, he said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so those verses combines with John 5:24 means again that obedience to God's commandments is the way to believe in Jesus, which is how God chose to teach us how to believe in him.

Clare73 · Feb 5, 2023

Cassian said:
this context is not first about believers. It is about mankind. Adam represents fallen man. It was his sin that caused the death of all humanity eternally. Man was estranged from God and needed saving. Adam destroyed the connection God wanted with the human being(s) He created in His image. This is all about why Christ was needed to restore the universe back to God, for Christ to reconcile this world back to God.

The condemnation to which you refer in Rom 5:18 is the condemnation of death to Adam, thus all mankind.
You can use the word salvation if you wish, but it does not refer directly to believers but to Adam.

Does "thus all mankind" not mean that all mankind is condemned?
Is it not that condemnation of all mankind from which the born again are delivered by salvation?
What other word would you use for the deliverance of the born again from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)?

Cassian said:
Rom 5P:9 - the first phrase is referring to God grace to mankind through Christ who justified, reconciled, saved, made righteous sthe entire universe which was under the condemnation of death. Read the rest of the context of Rom 5:12-21.

Ro 5:9 - . . ."how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath?" does not mean God has made righteous the entire universe.
The animals, plants and rocks are not unrighteous.

Cassian said:
There is that "through faith" again. We are being saved, as believers, not have been saved.

Previously addressed. . .does not my new birth by God (Jn 1:13) of my past not mean I was saved from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) at that time, and am now a son of God, no longer under God's wrath and condemnation?

Cassian said:
That is what Christ makes possible for believers. Being justified does not mean to be forgiven of ones sins.

Agreed, previously addressed. . ."justified" means a sentence of acquittal of guilt, a declaration of forensic righteousness (Ro 5:18, use of "acquittal" in the RSV and Amplified).

Cassian said:
When one believes the first thing is repentance. The next step is baptism which requires one to ask forgiveness of our past sin. Baptism is dying to the flesh and rising to a new life in the Spirit. We need to seek forgiveness of sins constantly because as believers we still live with this flesh. Our passions are ever seeking to override our spirit. Too remain IN Christ we must confess our sins and He will forgive and keep us right with God.

You really need to follow what I state. You just reversed entirely what I stated.

My "reverse" statement was simply the repeated conclusion ("not by works") of my point (#8), which you told me (#9) I could have stopped before stating it, because salvation is by faith. . .but that omits half the doctrine, so I repeated my point that salvation is "not by works," that works are opposed to, not included in, faith in Ro 3:28.

Cassian said:
Neither I not scripture ever states that faith is by works. I specifically stated to understand the protestant conundrum of faith/works to completely leave out the "works of the law" since that is what Christ did for us which we couldn't do anyway.
Justification has never meant some legal rule that automatically forgives a believer of all past, present and future sins.

Consult the Greek dictionary for the meaning of dikaiosis (justification).
Justification is a sentence of acquittal of guilt, a declaration of right standing with God's justice; i.e., forensically righteous.

Cassian said:
It is specifically sin in our lives that we are continually being warned against, especially in the NT in order to remain faithful, needing constant forgiveness of those sins.
The only place you will find it is in Anselm's Satisfaction theory of atonement.

Contraire. . .
You will likewise find "justification" (dikaiosis) in the Greek dictionary as "a sentence of acquittal of guilt,"
and you will find Ro 5:18 (dikaiosis) translated as "acquittal" in the RSV and the Amplified translations.

Cassian said:
You will not find anywhere in scripture where Jesus forgives sin on the basis of payment for sin. Forgiveness is not about balancing the books, or a legal requirement.

"Forgiveness" is an accounting term about debt, it means "cancellation of debt."
Jesus paid the ransom (Mt 20:28), we have been bought (redeemed) at a price (Ac 20:28, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23, 2 Pe 2:1), saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9).

Cassian said:
It is about faith, relationship/union with God and God's eternal goodwill and lovingkindness for His creation with which He desires to have union.
Quite the contrary. Here is their mistake. The translators of the Latin Vulgate did not have a word to use in place of "to make right". So, they used the legal Roman term, justify, justified, justification.

It's not about the Latin, nor the English, it's about the Greek, and its meaning of dikaiosis (justification).

Cassian said:
For 900 years the Church which was Greek translated it to mean to make righteous.

Agreed. . .that refers to imputed (credited, accounted) righteousness (Ro 4:1-11, v. 5) by faith, as with Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3),
not the personal righteousness of Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19 by works of obedience in the Holy Spirit, those very works being emphatically excluded from Abrahalm's righteousness (Ro 4:1-5).

Cassian said:
Translators of King James Version also accepted the Vulgate interpretation as correct, never checking it with the Greek.
Wherever the adjective dikaios, the verb dikaioo, and the noun dikaiosune occur the translation should use "righteous," "make righteous," and righteousness." The meaning of those words should be derived from the Hebrew idea of a righteous person (tzaddig).

The meaning of those words is the Greek, not the Hebrew.
Paul, the Hebrew (Php 3:5), was more than capable of translating the correct meaning of "righteousness" into the Greek, it being the language of the realm.

Cassian said:
Tzaddiq which never has the forensic meaning of being acquitted in a law court. The good news is that the Holy Spirit can perfect us in love, and so make us righteous in the Old Testament sense.
No human being was ever imputed sin.

Mere assertion is without merit. . .you must demonstrate that my exegesis of Ro 5:12-15 demonstrating imputation is incorrect,
by showing the correct exegesis of Ro 5:12-15, being true to its words, its context and consistent with/resolving the issues/conflicts presented.

Cassian said:
This is the error of Augustine in his theory known as Original Sin. We are not under Adam sin. we are under the condemnation of death due to Adam's sin. Rom 5:12 is quite clear on that issue. We sin because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56.
Now it becomes clear why so many do not understand Rom 5:18-19. There this word justification appears in English Bibles. What was justified, death was justified by Life. That is life to mankind. This is what Christ did for us, defeated death and the power of sin.
Your pattern is the first Adam brought death, the Second Adam being Incarnate brought life.

That is not the only pattern of Adam and Christ.

But pattern is not the issue of Ro 5:12-14.
How did Adam bring that death to his descendants for
God declares that the son (descendant) shall not inherit the guilt of the father (ancestor). (Eze 18:20)
(Just as) God imputes the guilt of (the first) Adam to those born of Adam,
(so also) God imputes the righteousness of (the second Adam) Jesus Christ to those born of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19).

Inheritance is by natural descent, which imputation is not.
Imputation is by counting/crediting/reckoning of God.

Cassian said:
1) See above. Neither was imputed. fatih is never in the context here in Rom 5:12-21.

2) Not imputed, He was justified by his faith, or in the Greek, was made righteous. It is imparted, It is internal to a believer, becomes part of ones existence. It is NOT an imputed court of law externally.

3) See above again. Check your Greek dictionary.

4) The Greek meaning is the same throughout the NT.

5) Your confusion on this score is explained above. To add, You are also confused on Eph 2:8-10. When the Bible uses "through faith" that is all about works, works of faith, bthe law of faith all terms Paul uses. You left out vs 10 which tells us that we, believers, were created for these works and we should walk in them.
6) Salvation/redemption is complete. It is what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection for the world.As for our individual salvation that is a work in progress. A believer can loose faith thus loose salvation. Scripture gives us several examples of believers loosing faith and being condemned.Which is works of faith or through faith. No salvation yet, Still in the future. Scripture never puts our personal salvation as having been accomplished. We will inherit it, IF we remain faithful, I Pet 1:3-5.

1) Correct. . .it is imputation in the context, which to demonstrate is incorrect will require your exegesis of Ro 5:12-15, as stated above.

2) a) Does not address my point there of Paul opposing works to grace (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:18).

--- b) According to the Biblical texts, Abraham was both:
justified by faith (Ro 4:2) -- sentence of acquittal of guilt, declaration of forensic righteousness (dikaiosis), and
imputed (Gr: logizomai; Heb: chasab, Ge 15:6--to count, credit, reckon*, Ro 4:3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 22, 23, 24) with righteousness (dikaiosune).
* "Reckon" is not "reconciling."

The texts in Ge 15:6 and Ro 4:3, etc. above use " imputed" (logizomai, chasab), they do not use "imparted" (Gr: metadidomi; Heb: chalag).

3) Greek dictionary hasn't changed, dikaiosis/justification is still forensic righteousness--sentence of acquital of guilt, declaration of righteous.

4) Previously addressed. . . dikaiosis (justification) and dikaiosune (righteousness) do not have the same meaning in the Greek.

5) Does not address that works are opposed to the grace which saves in Eph 2:8-9; i.e., "by grace. . .not by works,"
as well as opposed to the faith which justifies in Ro 3:28; i.e., "by faith apart from observing the law." (Gal 2:16, Gal 3:11)

6) The born again of God (Jn 1:13) do not apostasize (1 Co 1:22, 1 Co 5:5, Eph 1:4).

Guojing · Feb 5, 2023

Generally, one can make Paul and James say the same thing in a few ways:

James is talking about justification before man, while Paul is talking about justification before God.
One just need to redefine works as "the Holy Spirit working in you", and is thus not a work by Man.
Use that Martin Luther slogan "It is faith alone that saves you, but the faith that saves you is never alone".

Cassian · Feb 6, 2023

Clare73 said:
Does "thus all mankind" not mean that all mankind is condemned?

Yes.

Clare73 said:
Is it not that condemnation of all mankind from which the born again are delivered by salvation?

It is specifically all mankind. But since believers are part of that mankind, yes.

Clare73 said:
What other word would you use for the deliverance of the born again from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)?

None, It does not apply to "born again" specifically but mankind.

Clare73 said:
The animals, plants and rocks are not unrighteous. Ro 5:9 - . . ."how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath?" does not mean God has made righteous the entire universe.

Absolutely. It the world, universe was condemned through Adam then the Second Adam reconciled that world back to God. Here are some very specific texts addressing the Incarnate Christ's work. Col 1:20. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:20-22, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-16.

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed. . .does not my new birth by God (Jn 1:13) of my past not mean I was saved from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) at that time, and am now a son of God, no longer under God's wrath and condemnation?

No. assume you are an unbeliever first. He has been redeemed by Christ as part of humanity. He has now been made right with God, meaning he has an eternal existence again and if he believes he can have his sin forgiven.
Now, you believe, repent and are baptized. Vs 13 is what the Holy Spirit does through baptism, regeneration of our spirit, Read Rom 6 which is called the baptism chapter will explain what baptism means. By the way, this does not mean you are saved (past tense) you are being saved. If you are faithful your inheritance waits - eternal life.

Clare73 said:
Agreed, previously addressed. . ."justified" means a sentence of acquittal of guilt, a declaration of forensic righteousness (Ro 5:18, use of "acquittal" in the RSV and Amplified).

Negative. It means the world was given life, overcoming the condemnation of death. The world was made right with God by Christ. It is why we can speak of the resurrection of the dead, and a new heaven and new earth at the Second Coming of Christ.

Clare73 said:
My "reverse" statement was simply the repeated conclusion ("not by works") of my point (#8), which you told me (#9) I could have stopped before stating it, because salvation is by faith. . .but that omits half the doctrine, so I repeated my point that salvation is "not by works," that works are opposed to, not included in, faith in Ro 3:28.

You are confused because there are two kinds of works. You refer ONLY to works of the law, but negate that Paul also uses "works of faith. When scripture uses the phrase, "through faith" it is referring to the continuous action for believers to do the work of God, and if faithful will inherit eternal life. That is one's personal salvation.

Clare73 said:
Consult the Greek dictionary for the meaning of dikaiosis (justification).
Justification is a sentence of acquittal of guilt, a declaration of right standing with God's justice; i.e., forensically righteous.

So, when you justify your checkbook with your bank statement you are declaring your checkbook free of guilt" You can use the word, reconcile here as well. It only means that in western theology which follows Anselms theory of Satisfaction. In Greek dikaiosis has never had a legal meaning or forensic meaning.

Clare73 said:
Contraire. . .
You will likewise find "justification" (dikaiosis) in the Greek dictionary as "a sentence of acquittal of guilt,"
and you will find Ro 5:18 (dikaiosis) translated as "acquittal" in the RSV and the Amplified translations.

Dictionaries that are written by western theologions. It is why such a verse as Rom 5:18 becomes so incoherent. In none of the uses of dikaiosis in scripture is there ever a context of a court, or justification of a law. How can death become not guilty in Rom 5:18, No, death was made right by life.

Clare73 said:
"Forgiveness" is an accounting term about debt, it means "cancellation of debt."
Jesus paid the ransom (Mt 20:28), we have been bought (redeemed) at a price (Ac 20:28, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23, 2 Pe 2:1), saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9).

Yes, but He paid it for mankind. Christ did not save believers by His death and resurrection. He made it possible to have union with mankind again and those that believe and are faithful will inherit eternal life. A believer is one who chooses to be in union with God by faith.

Clare73 said:
It's not about the Latin, nor the English, it's about the Greek, and its meaning of dikaiosis (justification).

Agreed. . .that refers to imputed (credited, accounted) righteousness (Ro 4:1-11, v. 5) by faith, as with Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3),
not the personal righteousness of Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19 by works of obedience in the Holy Spirit, those very works being emphatically excluded from Abrahalm's righteousness (Ro 4:1-5).

Dikaiosis has never meant, justification (freed from guilt or forensic law) As I stated Latin did not have a corresponding word, so the Latin translators used the closest thing they had, justify as it was used in Roman law. This is why this theory is so dangerous. It becomes an external aspect of one's existence. It is an external judgement upon a person with no resulting change in that person. Whereas the correct understanding in those verses is imparted righteousness. Meaning and internal change to man's existence thus making him acceptable to God.

Clare73 said:
The meaning of those words is the Greek, not the Hebrew.
Paul, the Hebrew (Php 3:5), was more than capable of translating the correct meaning of "righteousness" into the Greek, it being the language of the realm.

That is the point. He never used the word "justify, justified, justification. He used dikaiosis.

Clare73 said:
Mere assertion is without merit. . .you must demonstrate that my exegesis of Ro 5:12-15 demonstrating imputation is incorrect,
by showing the correct exegesis of Ro 5:12-15, being true to its words, its context and consistent with/resolving the issues/conflicts presented.

Already did so.

Clare73 said:
That is not the only pattern of Adam and Christ.

But pattern is not the issue of Ro 5:12-14.
How did Adam bring that death to his descendants for
God declares that the son (descendant) shall not inherit the guilt of the father (ancestor). (Eze 18:20)
(Just as) God imputes the guilt of (the first) Adam to those born of Adam,
(so also) God imputes the righteousness of (the second Adam) Jesus Christ to those born of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19).

You have given the best interpretation of the error of the theory of Original Sin which both the Latins and Protestants inherited from the erroneous theory written by Augustine which never became doctrine of the Church, but was condemned until 600 years later when it was incorporated into the Satisfaction theory of atonement by Anselm.
We never inherit guilt from Adam. Because Adam was condemned to death became mortal. we by birth as being human beings of the same nature are all born mortal. We sin because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56.
Because we were never imputed Adam's sin or guilt, we were not imputed righteous either. Christ was Incarnate meaning He was both God and man. He took on our humanity, our human natures and by His resurrection gave life, overcame that condemnation of death. I Cor 15:20-22 is a explicit summary of that correction. And Heb 2:14-16 explains why also.

Clare73 said:
Inheritance is by natural descent, which imputation is not.
Imputation is by counting/crediting/reckoning of God.

1) Correct. . .it is imputation in the context, which to demonstrate is incorrect will require your exegesis of Ro 5:12-15, as stated above.

2) a) Does not address my point there of Paul opposing works to grace (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:18).

--- b) According to the Biblical texts, Abraham was both:
justified by faith (Ro 4:2) -- sentence of acquittal of guilt, declaration of forensic righteousness (dikaiosis), and
imputed (Gr: logizomai; Heb: chasab, Ge 15:6--to count, credit, reckon*, Ro 4:3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 22, 23, 24) with righteousness (dikaiosune).
* "Reckon" is not "reconciling."

The texts in Ge 15:6 and Ro 4:3, etc. above use " imputed" (logizomai, chasab), they do not use "imparted" (Gr: metadidomi; Heb: chalag).

3) Greek dictionary hasn't changed, dikaiosis/justification is still forensic righteousness--sentence of acquital of guilt, declaration of righteous.

4) Previously addressed. . . dikaiosis (justification) and dikaiosune (righteousness) do not have the same meaning in the Greek.

5) Does not address that works are opposed to the grace which saves in Eph 2:8-9; i.e., "by grace. . .not by works,"
as well as opposed to the faith which justifies in Ro 3:28; i.e., "by faith apart from observing the law." (Gal 2:16, Gal 3:11)

As long as you continue to use western theology taken over from the Romans you will continue to totally misunderstand salvation in its entirety.
Because you don't understand clearly what Christ did for mankind, you also fail to fully understand man's response. You will continually conflate all works with "works of the law", totally dismissing that there are "works of faith".

Clare73 said:
6) The born again of God (Jn 1:13) do not apostasize (1 Co 1:22, 1 Co 5:5, Eph 1:4).

My question would be - are there some believers who cannot apostacize while most have the capabiltiy/ability to do so? My assumption is that you hold to OSAS as well.
Here are some who have apostacized. You have the parable of the sower. Of the four categories, the last three were believers. This parable is so important that it is found in Matt, Mark and Luke. So important that Jesus gives us the explanation.
Demas: II Tim 4:10, Prodigal Son -Luke 15:11-32, Hymenaeus & Philetus II Tim 2:17-18, Young Widows - I Tim 5:14-15,, Money became their god - I Tim 6:5-10, Servant who backslides - Luke 12:45-46,.

These are just a few more well known examples in scripture of believers who fell away, the only example here of one returning is the prodigal son. There are some 100+ verses of warning to believers to hold fast, to remain faithful and other exhortations or ways to fall away.

JulieB67 · Feb 6, 2023

HSong said:
Faith alone is what saves us. Not works salvation. Works salvation is completely false, it's only faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves us.

If one is truly saved they will "naturally" have works. That is what James is basically stating. You can't have one without the other. Works are proof of our faith.

I highly doubt a person that states they are saved but chooses to live out their lives anyway they choose was "saved" to begin with. Repentance is a true change of the heart/mind. It is not simply lip service.

A person can have problem sins and therefore that takes time. We will all fall short all of our lives but true repentance means we will "want" to always try to put the spirit above the flesh. And then when we fall short we pick ourselves back up and go on.

Cassian · Feb 6, 2023

JulieB67 said:
If one is truly saved they will "naturally" have works. That is what James is basically stating. You can't have one without the other. Works are proof of our faith.

I highly doubt a person that states they are saved but chooses to live our their lives anyway they choose was "saved" to begin with. Repentance is a true change of the heart/mind. It is not simply lip service.

A person can have problem sins and therefore that takes time. We will all fall short all of our lives but true repentance means we will "want" to always try to put the spirit above the flesh. And then when we fall short we pick ourselves back up and go on.

Excellent. Very scripturally sound.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2023

Cassian said:
Yes.
It is specifically all mankind. But since believers are part of that mankind, yes.
None, It does not apply to "born again" specifically but mankind.

Distinction without a difference.

Cassian said:
Absolutely. It the world, universe was condemned through Adam then the Second Adam reconciled that world back to God. Here are some very specific texts addressing the Incarnate Christ's work. Col 1:20. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:20-22, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-16.

The world/creation was subject to disorder/frustration (Ro 8:20) by the curse of Ge 3:17-19. Christ's death made peace possible between God and man, and restored in divine principle the harmony in the physical world, although the full realization of that harmony will come only when Christ returns (Ro 8:22-23).

Cassian said:
No. assume you are an unbeliever first. He has been redeemed by Christ as part of humanity.
He has now been made right with God, meaning he has an eternal existence again and if he believes he can have his sin forgiven.

So all the reprobates are "redeemed," "made right with God" and given "an eternal existence again". . .only to be fried for eternity.
I'm thinking not "redeemed" is better. . .and God is not perfidious.

Cassian said:
Now, you believe, repent and are baptized. Vs 13 is what the Holy Spirit does through baptism, regeneration of our spirit,

That's not the way Scripture presents regeneration (rebirth) in Jn 3:5-8, where it is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Ecc 11:5) and not governed by man's act of baptism.

Cassian said:
Read Rom 6 which is called the baptism chapter will explain what baptism means. By the way, this does not mean you are saved (past tense) you are being saved. If you are faithful your inheritance waits - eternal life.
Negative. It means the world was given life, overcoming the condemnation of death.

Not according to the Greek meaning of dikaiosis; i.e., sentence of acquittal of guilt, declaration of righteous according to God's justice.
And the world was not physically dead when Jesus died.
The life in Ro 5:18 is eternal (God's) life, which loss of by Adam is overcome at rebirth of the unbeliever, with eternal life not being given to the world.

Cassian said:
The world was made right with God by Christ. It is why we can speak of the resurrection of the dead, and a new heaven and new earth at the Second Coming of Christ.
You are confused because there are two kinds of works. You refer ONLY to works of the law, but negate that Paul also uses "works of faith. When scripture uses the phrase, "through faith" it is referring to the continuous action for believers to do the work of God, and if faithful will inherit eternal life. That is one's personal salvation.
So, when you justify your checkbook with your bank statement you are declaring your checkbook free of guilt" You can use the word, reconcile here as well.

And "justify" and "reconcile" here are to (the Court of) Divine justice, with which they are now in agreement (righteous), as are your checkbook and bank statement.

Cassian said:
It only means that in western theology which follows Anselms theory of Satisfaction. In Greek dikaiosis has never had a legal meaning or forensic meaning.
Dictionaries that are written by western theologions. It is why such a verse as Rom 5:18 becomes so incoherent.

First of all, Ro 5:18 is not incoherent, it is explained above. The incoherency comes from misunderstanding "life" and who receives it.
Using that misunderstanding, nothing make sense in Ro 5:18.
Secondly, if you are going to blame your disagreement on the dictionary, then that leaves us no common authority and, therefore, no basis for discussion.

Cassian said:
In none of the uses of dikaiosis in scripture is there ever a context of a court, or justification of a law. How can death become not guilty in Rom 5:18, No, death was made right by life.

According to Scripture, it is not death that was acquitted of guilt in Ro 5:18, it is the believer that is acquitted.
One man's (Adam) act resulted in/brought condemnation that brings death (both everlasting physical and eternal spiritual) for all men born of that one man,
just as one man's (Christ) act brought acquittal (justification--not guilty; righteous) that brings life (both everlasting physical and eternal spiritual) for all men born of him.

Cassian said:
Yes, but he paid it for mankind. Christ did not save believers by his death and resurrection

According to Scripture, Christ's death ransomed (Mt 20:28), bought back (redeemed) at a price (Ac 20:28, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23, 2 Pe 2:1) from God's condemnation (Ro 5:18) and wrath (Ro 5:9) those who believe in him.

Cassian said:
He made it possible to have union with mankind again and those that believe and are faithful will inherit eternal life. A believer is one who chooses to be in union with God by faith.
Dikaiosis has never meant, justification (freed from guilt or forensic law). As I stated Latin did not have a corresponding word, so the Latin translators used the closest thing they had, justify as it was used in Roman law. This is why this theory is so dangerous. It becomes an external aspect of one's existence. It is an external judgement upon a person with no resulting change in that person. Whereas the correct understanding in those verses is imparted righteousness. Meaning and internal change to man's existence thus making him acceptable to God.

Previously stated by you, addressed by me. . .with no response by you.

Cassian said:
That is the point. He never used the word "justify, justified, justification. He used dikaiosis.

And that brings us back to a common authority in our discussion, which it seems we do not have.

Cassian said:
Already did so.

I missed your exegesis of Ro 5:12-15. Would you point out where it is.

Cassian said:
You have given the best interpretation of the error of the theory of Original Sin which both the Latins and Protestants inherited from the erroneous theory written by Augustine which never became doctrine of the Church, but was condemned until 600 years later when it was incorporated into the Satisfaction theory of atonement by Anselm.

I got it from Ro 5:12-15,
as I got atonement by payment of the ransom from Mt 20:28, and being bought back (redeemed) at a price from Ac 20:28, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23, 2 Pe 2:1.

Cassian said:
We never inherit guilt from Adam. Because Adam was condemned to death became mortal. we by birth as being human beings of the same nature are all born mortal. We sin because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56.

That is backwards. . .we are mortal because Adam sinned.

Sin brought us under death's power (made us mortal). . .through the power of the Law to curse (Gal 3:10).

Cassian said:
Because we were never imputed Adam's sin or guilt, we were not imputed righteous either.

Previously addressed:
The texts in Ge 15:6 (chasab) and Ro 4:3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 22, 23, 24 (logizomai) state "imputed,"
they do not state "imparted" (Heb: chalag; Gr: metadidomi)

Cassian said:
Christ was Incarnate meaning He was both God and man. He took on our humanity, our human natures and by His resurrection gave life, overcame that condemnation of death. I Cor 15:20-22 is a explicit summary of that correction. And Heb 2:14-16 explains why also.

As long as you continue to use western theology taken over from the Romans you will continue to totally misunderstand salvation in its entirety.

Strawman. . .

I use neither northern, southern, eastern or western theology. I use the Scriptures, interpreted in their own context and light.

Cassian said:
Because you don't understand clearly what Christ did for mankind, you also fail to fully understand man's response. You will continually conflate all works with "works of the law", totally dismissing that there are "works of faith".

And how do they differ?
Do not the works of faith include the Ten Commandments; i.e., works of the Law?

Cassian said:
My question would be - are there some believers who cannot apostacize while most have the capabiltiy/ability to do so? My assumption is that you hold to OSAS as well.
Here are some who have apostacized. You have the parable of the sower. Of the four categories, the last three were believers. This parable is so important that it is found in Matt, Mark and Luke. So important that Jesus gives us the explanation.
Demas: II Tim 4:10, Prodigal Son -Luke 15:11-32, Hymenaeus & Philetus II Tim 2:17-18, Young Widows - I Tim 5:14-15,, Money became their god - I Tim 6:5-10, Servant who backslides - Luke 12:45-46,.
These are just a few more well known examples in scripture of believers who fell away.

All based on the assumption that they were all wheat (born again) and none were tares, which look just like wheat.

Cassian said:
the only example here of one returning is the prodigal son.

Was he not an example of all mankind fallen from Father God, who welcomes with great joy (Lk 15:10) those who return to him?

Cassian said:
There are some 100+ verses of warning to believers to hold fast, to remain faithful and other exhortations or ways to fall away.

Yes, God preserves the saints through second causes, such as warnings, exhortations, circumstances, the Scriptures, graces, etc.
The wheat heed the warnings, the tares not so much.

Cassian · Feb 7, 2023

Clare73 said:
Distinction without a difference.

The world/creation was subject to disorder/frustration (Ro 8:20) by the curse of Ge 3:17-19. Christ's death made peace possible between God and man, and restored in divine principle the harmony in the physical world, although the full realization of that harmony will come only when Christ returns (Ro 8:22-23)

I would say you understand the Incarnation now. However, I read the rest of your response below and you explicitly deny Christ's Incarnation.
If you in fact believe the above then the rest of your post is inconsistent and incongruous with scripture and the above statement.

Clare73 said:
So all the reprobates are "redeemed," "made right with God" and given "an eternal existence again". . .only to be fried for eternity.
I'm thinking not "redeemed" is better. . .and God is not perfidious.

I might say you also have a much different concept of Hell as well. You take a metaphor and make it a reality.
God loves all mankind. Which is why He redeemed, reconciled the world and mankind back to God, so that through the Holy Spirit He can call all men to repentance. God is not capricious. Those that choose not to believe will receive their just reward.

Clare73 said:
That's not the way Scripture presents regeneration (rebirth) in Jn 3:5-8, where it is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Ecc 11:5) and not governed by man's act of baptism.

Seems you are overlaying some particular theology apart from scripture. John 3:5-8 has been the sine quo non of baptism for 2000 years of Church history. That does not rule out that the regeneration is all done by the Holy Spirit. How could man do that? If he could he would not need the Holy Spirit. The when is surely governed by an act of man. namely believing.

Clare73 said:
Not according to the Greek meaning of dikaiosis; i.e., sentence of acquittal of guilt, declaration of righteous according to God's justice.
And the world was not physically dead when Jesus died.
The life in Ro 5:18 is eternal (God's) life, which loss of by Adam is overcome at rebirth of the unbeliever, with eternal life not being given to the world.

That would be neat trick that the life that Christ gave to the world (mankind) somehow becomes a spiritual life (relationship). How does that happen? Can you explain? Spiritual life begins for a believer (relationship with God) at baptism. It has been so for 2000 years so far.
The world is still under the condemnation of death, as is man in this life. Man was assigned to die once, to rid our bodies of sin. Heb 9:27.
While you are at it, explain how Christ's physical death/resurrection gave spiritual life to a believer 2000 years later. He said it was finished on the Cross 2000 years ago.

Clare73 said:
And "justify" and "reconcile" here are to (the Court)

First of all, Ro 5:18 is not incoherent, it is explained above. The incoherency comes from misunderstanding "life" and who receives it.
Using that misunderstanding, nothing make sense in Ro 5:18.
Secondly, if you are going to blame your disagreement on the dictionary, then that leaves us no common authority and, therefore, no basis for discussion.

First, Rom 5:18 does not mention believers. The prelude to 18 is "the ungodly. and sinners. Are you saying that ONLY believers are ungodly and sinners.? Also, since the condemnation of death (physical death) came to all men, how is not that life came to all men. Could you explain how Christ, the Incarnate Christ could delineate between all men and believers by His death/resurrection?
As far a dictionaries go, The Church was ONLY Greek for the first 900 years. During that time "dikaiosis" never had the legal, forensic meaning. Which is still true today.

Clare73 said:
According to Scripture, it is not death that was acquitted of guilt in Ro 5:18, it is the believer that is acquitted.

So now you are a Universalist? All men were condemned thus all men were given an acquittal? You really need to destroy and twist a verse to get your meaning out of it. So how does death not be the condemnation when the verse clearly states it was. So you equate death to mean a believer? It would be interesting how you handle I Cor 15:20-22 which is the same thing.

Clare73 said:
One man's (Adam) act resulted in/brought condemnation that brings death (both everlasting physical and eternal spiritual) for all men born of that one man,

There is nothing spiritual in that condemnation. It is physical ONLY. We are born mortal from that one man. Sin is all our own Our own sin separates us from God. We sin unlike the type of Adam who sinned without being mortal. We sin because we are mortal, I Cor 15:56.

Clare73 said:
just as one man's (Christ) act brought acquittal (justification--not guilty; righteous) that brings life (both everlasting physical and eternal spiritual) for all men born of him.

So, you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead in the last day, nor do you believe that there will be a new heaven and new earth. If you do, then you have a HUGE disconnect because your statement above is a direct denial of it. Could you explain how the Incarnation can be limited? Could you explain just how Christ's shed blood could be limited?

Clare73 said:
According to Scripture, Christ's death ransomed (Mt 20:28), bought back (redeemed) at a price (Ac 20:28, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23, 2 Pe 2:1) from God's condemnation (Ro 5:18) and wrath (Ro 5:9) those who believe in him.

It sure did, but it was for all men. Rom 5:18 tells us that. But you need to twist it all around so that physical life becomes spiritual life. You will need to explain that to me, as I have no idea how that can happen given the rest of scripture and even this verse.
You do realize that everyone, every human being was an unbeliever at some time. So if Christ ONLY died for believers, then the logic says that there cannot be believers.

Clare73 said:
Previously stated by you, addressed by me. . .with no response by you.

And that brings us back to a common authority in our discussion, which it seems we do not have.

Quite contrary. I have 2000 years of the meaning of Scripture that has not changed from Apostolic times. You seem to hold to views that some individual men have imposed over scripture to develop their own theories as to what scripture means. I don't hold to man's interpretations unless it agrees with the unchanged meaning of scripture.

Clare73 said:
I missed your exegesis of Ro 5:12-15. Would you point out where it is.

See above again.

Clare73 said:
I got it from Ro 5:12-15,
as I got atonement by payment of the ransom from Mt 20:28, and being bought back (redeemed) at a price from Ac 20:28, 1 Co 6:20, 7:23, 2 Pe 2:1.

Which makes your understanding very incoherent. You make Christ's work meaningless which is what Paul states in I Cor 15:16-19. You seem to hold that Christ will raise ONLY believers because they are the only ones who were given life in Rom 5:18 as well as I Cor 15:20-22. Paul says even the faith of believers will be in vain unless all men are raised from death.

Clare73 said:
That is backwards. . .we are mortal because Adam sinned.

Sin brought us under death's power (made us mortal). . .through the power of the Law to curse (Gal 3:10).

Yes, we are mortal because Adam sinned. However we don't sin according to the likeness of Adam. In other words Adam's sin came from a non-mortal nature. Our sin comes because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56. Which denies your man-made theory of Original Sin.

Clare73 said:
I use neither northern, southern, eastern or western theology. I use the Scriptures, interpreted in their own context and light.

Maybe you should not do that. A lot of people do that and have come up with myriads of interpretations. It is getting worse by the day.
Romans changed/added several things. Historically we had art least 4 Protestant reformers in the beginning, now we have thousands of them who all claim the same thing you do. So, how can anyone really know what scripture means?

Clare73 said:
And how do they differ?
Do not the works of faith include the Ten Commandments; i.e., works of the Law?

Through faith.

Clare73 said:
All based on the assumption that they were all wheat (born again) and none were tares, which look just like wheat.

If Jesus says they were, then I believe it. I don't try to manipulate Jesus's own words to fit a preconceived theory, such as the unscriptural view of OSAS.

Clare73 said:
Was he not an example of all mankind fallen from Father God, who welcomes with great joy (Lk 15:10) those who return to him?

So you show another inconsistency in your view. You stated that believers cannot apostatize but here you agree that someone who has apostatized can return to the Father.

Clare73 said:
Yes, God preserves the saints through second causes, such as warnings, exhortations, circumstances, the Scriptures, graces, etc.
The wheat heed the warnings, the tares not so much.

Where is the concept of "second causes" stated in scripture? The warning are not for tares or unbelievers, They are specifically for believers. But then, if believers cannot apostatize, why the warnings?
I can also assure you that not all the wheat heed the warnings, I gave you a couple of scriptural examples, One you dismissed completely, the Prodigal you agreed he did apostatize, then return. The others you did not comment on which denies your stated position.

Works Salvation is False

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