work/servile work

[chunkofcoal]

There are two kinds of "work" mentioned in regards to the Holy days/ Feasts - translated as "work" and "servile work". How do Messianics define these two kinds of "work"? Do they generally follow what the Rabbis have said?

 

[Lulav]

I take 'servile work' as meaning working for someone else. It could be as a servant but anyone that has a job is basically a servant, working for someone else 's benefit to get a paycheck to live.

Some 'work' needs to be done everyday, like back then the Priests needed to always work in the Tabernacle. Even when we prepare food on the sixth day we still have to serve it, and pick up after it.

If you have a baby or elderly person they need to be attended to. Medical professionals need to be on call for emergencies.

In your own home you should get things done up in time before Shabbat, everyday chores that don't have to be done like changing diapers, should be either done before or after Shabbat.

Taking care of your animals although a daily thing is still needed on Shabbat because we have been entrusted with them and are responsible.

 

[Heber Book List]

Wives are not actually listed in the so-called 10 commandments under Sabbath. They have duties to perform if others are dependent on them, as in babies and very young children or family are sick / ill.

 

[Lulav]

Wives are not actually listed in the so-called 10 commandments under Sabbath. They have duties to perform if others are dependent on them, as in babies and very young children or family are sick / ill.

???

 

[Heber Book List]

???

A wife is not listed as those who may do no work on Shabbat in Exodus 20 vs 8-11. JPS 1917

 

[Dkh587]

Wives are not actually listed in the so-called 10 commandments under Sabbath. They have duties to perform if others are dependent on them, as in babies and very young children or family are sick / ill.

That's not work - God doesn't expect babies and very young children to starve and be helpless on Sabbath. Good grief - where's the mercy in that?

It's okay to feed & take care of livestock on Sabbath - how much more a human being with helpless children or sick people?

Wives are called to obey the Sabbath and not do servile work.

 

[Heber Book List]

That's not work - God doesn't expect babies and very young children to starve and be helpless on Sabbath. Good grief - where's the mercy in that?

It's okay to feed & take care of livestock on Sabbath - how much more a human being with helpless children or sick people?

Wives are called to obey the Sabbath and not do servile work.

I didn't say they were defined as work - they are essential tasks.

My point was, is, that wives are not included in the list of those who may not work on the Sabbath.

Simple fact.

 

[Dkh587]

I didn't say they were defined as work - they are essential tasks.

My point was, is, that wives are not included in the list of those who may not work on the Sabbath.

Simple fact.

if you wish to teach wives that it's okay to work on the Sabbath, which is contrary to the Scriptures, then that's on your head, not mine.

 

[Heber Book List]

if you wish to teach wives that it's okay to work on the Sabbath, which is contrary to the Scriptures, then that's on your head, not mine.

That would have been a very convincing argument... if that had been what I said, but I didn't, so it's not.

Show me where it specifically mentions wives in relation to essential tasks, as I defined them, being banned on Shabbat? Book, Chapter and verse, please

 

[Dkh587]

That would have been a very convincing argument... if that had been what I said, but I didn't, so it's not.

Show me where it specifically mentions wives in relation to essential tasks, as I defined them, being banned on Shabbat? Book, Chapter and verse, please

I'm just going by what you've stated - perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, and if I am, I apologize

do you teach that it's okay for a wife to work at her job on the Sabbath?

Essential tasks aren't breaking the Sabbath - clocking in/reporting to your job is breaking the Sabbath

 

[Heber Book List]

I'm just going by what you've stated - perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, and if I am, I apologize

do you teach that it's okay for a wife to work at her job on the Sabbath?

No, I did not say that. No one, on Shabbat, can work. However, it is also true that Exodus 20 does not list one's wife. I believe that is because, as I have said several times, and you agreed earlier, one's wife may have babies, young children, sick or ill family that she would look after.

This does NOT mean she can cook food (unless it is for medical purposes), wash up, vacuum the house through, do the washing, clean the windows, drive to the shops, make the beds, turn on or off the lights, etc etc etc.

 

[visionary]

As a woman, we are included in the Sabbath rest, as a wife and mother, we are excluded, for the exceptions necessary.

 

[Steve Petersen]

This debate will all come to ruin over these questions:

What is work?

Who has the authority to define work?

Most fundamentalists are 'scripture alone' people who reject any authority and only do what they think God is telling them to do personally. In this case, every man is a law unto themselves.

 

[visionary]

This debate will all come to ruin over these questions:

What is work?

Who has the authority to define work?

Most fundamentalists are 'scripture alone' people who reject any authority and only do what they think God is telling them to do personally. In this case, every man is a law unto themselves.

That is only true if they are outside the work of God.

 

[Dkh587]

No, I did not say that. No one, on Shabbat, can work. However, it is also true that Exodus 20 does not list one's wife. I believe that is because, as I have said several times, and you agreed earlier, one's wife may have babies, young children, sick or ill family that she would look after.

This does NOT mean she can cook food (unless it is for medical purposes), wash up, vacuum the house through, do the washing, clean the windows, drive to the shops, make the beds, turn on or off the lights, etc etc etc.

gotcha - I apologize for my misunderstanding.

My personal opinion/belief is that the wife does not need to be specified - sorta like with Adam and Chawah(Eve) - God gave the command to Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but Chawah was still expected to adhere to it as well, even though she was not given the command verbatim from God - her man was given the command. A man and his woman are one/echad. I don't think the wife has to be specified in the 10 commandments. Obviously a "wife" has a husband/man. It kinda goes without saying.

Even where we disagree, at least we agree that women/wives shouldn't be doing servile work and cleaning/cooking etc on Sabbath, and that we should all be keeping the Sabbath. HalleluYah

Shabbat shalom everybody

 

[chunkofcoal]

In regards to wives not being specifically mentioned, it's written:
"Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,"
It doesn't say it was only to the men.

And it's written:
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

So the way I see it, when God said "thou shalt not do any work," the "thou" included both men and women.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I just started studying this because I thought it was interesting that there are two different words for "work" - avodah, and melachah. If I am reading it right, on the weekly Sabbath and Yom Kippur, the work is "melachah" work, and the rest of the holy days/feasts is "avodah." I found an article that said that "avodah" is a general term for work but "melachah", though there are only two 'melachot' listed in the Torah, the definition was expanded to be 39 categories of 'work' that was involved in building the "Mishkan". I'd heard about that, but hadn't really read up on it. But in the article it says:
"These melachot are not a haphazard collection of activities, and do not necessarily represent physical exertion. Rather, the principle behind them is that they represent constructive, creative effort, demonstrating man's mastery over nature. Refraining from melachah on Shabbat signals our recognition that, despite our human creative abilities, G‑d is the ultimate Creator and Master."

I thought that was a nice way to look at it especially on the weekly Sabbath and Yom Kippur. It's kind of like you have to 'let go and let God" on those days.

So I didn't mean to cause a fuss; I was just wondering if Messianics saw any difference between the two kinds of "work".

The two "melachot" that are actually written are about kindling a fire, and "carrying." But I think the "carrying" (remember Yeshua told the man to pick up his bed and walk?) is about "carrying a burden".

This is the article I read and got the quote from: Melacha - A Unique Definition of Work

Enjoy the rest of your Sabbath.

 

[Heber Book List]

In regards to wives not being specifically mentioned, it's written:
"Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,"
It doesn't say it was only to the men.

And it's written:
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

So the way I see it, when God said "thou shalt not do any work," the "thou" included both men and women.

If you actually read what the Tanach says in Exodus 20 you will find that everyone is covered, but NOT the wife - which is what I said. You can run round in theological circles, but the simple fact is the only person missed from the list is the wife. Now, that may upset your understanding, but unless you can find a Tanach that includes the wife, or the 'mother of your son', there is little that can be done about it except to try and understand why the omission is made, which is what has been done on this thread. Quoting Deuteronomy doesn't explain, or change, Exodus. In any case, if you look carefully, Moses wrote the second set of tablets, not G_d.

 

[chunkofcoal]

If you actually read what the Tanach says in Exodus 20 you will find that everyone is covered, but NOT the wife - which is what I said. You can run round in theological circles, but the simple fact is the only person missed from the list is the wife. Now, that may upset your understanding, but unless you can find a Tanach that includes the wife, or the 'mother of your son', there is little that can be done about it except to try and understand why the omission is made, which is what has been done on this thread. Quoting Deuteronomy doesn't explain, or change, Exodus. In any case, if you look carefully, Moses wrote the second set of tablets, not G_d.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think wives were included because the words were spoken to the 'assembly'. And I wouldn't put taking care of ones child or a sick relative in the category of "work".

Edit-
I went and took a look, and if one wants to get technical, the "you" or "thou" is masculine singular which would mean the commandments were only directed to the men. So if one wanted to, they could argue that women aren't obligated to keep the commandments at all. But I don't want to argue that.

 

[Heber Book List]

We will have to agree to disagree. I think wives were included because the words were spoken to the 'assembly'. And I wouldn't put taking care of ones child or a sick relative in the category of "work".

Edit-
I went and took a look, and if one wants to get technical, the "you" or "thou" is masculine singular which would mean the commandments were only directed to the men. So if one wanted to, they could argue that women aren't obligated to keep the commandments at all. But I don't want to argue that.

I'm not sure what your argument is. If you read Exodus 20 JPS 1917,
or later, it does not make any mention of a wife. It does mention one's maidservant, or slaves, or daughters, but it does not mention one's wife, which is all I have pointed out. I reiterate, if you can find a direct reference to one's wife in the Exodus '10 Commandments' in any version of the Tanach please show which version. The Exodus version is that which was written on the tablets by G_d - unlike the second set that were written / carved by Moses, who also wote the Book of the Law.