Women's obedience to her husband

[Peter North]

I've heard it being said that a woman should 'reverece her husband' and some versions of the King James bible say that it means obey the husband.

It also mentons women keeping silence in the church. My pastor told me that this was a long time ago when women were not educated, but now it has become part of society now that women are smarter and are therefore qualified to speak and pray in a place of worship.

So the obedience thing, is it a cultural thing that can be thrown out, or is it still valid today?

For me, I would want a wife one day that obeys me, but as the bible says, I would love her. I would want the relationship to be that I love her and cherish her so much that her opinions mean a lot to me and her wishes for the family - I would think a great deal about, but when the final decision came, she would gladly submit to what I decided was best for the family. As I heard once, a 50-50 marriage isn't wedlock - it's deadlock.

 

[JillLars]

Actually peter, I have a 50-50 relationship and everything has worked great so far, we get along well enough to be able to listen to one anothers suggestions and logically choose the best decision for both of us. I would guess that the only time a wife would need to submit to her husband is after they reached a deadlock in the first place, I have never had that problem, and I don't feel the need to submit to everything my fiance says.

 

[Peter]

Ah the old "cultural distinctive" issue. At the back of my mind, when I was still a Protestant, this used to bother me because of it's apparent contradiction that the Bible is always relevant. Good luck finding the answer you seek.

Peace.

Peter

 

[JillLars]

I want to just clarify that I don't have anything against those who do want to have submissive wives, as long as the wives are submissive willingly, it really depends on the personalities of two people, both my fiance and I are intelligent people, we are both pretty dominant but because of our friendship and our personalities, it just works. To each his own Good luck you you peter north!

 

[Daron]

Adam and Eve did not have a 50-50 relationship, nor did Yahuah set it up that way.

Gen 3:16 To the woman He said:

"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

OT:4910 mashal (maw-shal'); a primitive root; to rule:

KJV - (have, make to have) dominion, governor, X indeed, reign, (bear, cause to, have) rule (-ing, -r), have power.

These days women want to get out of their curse by having abortions and not submiting to their husbands. Then there are men who want to get out of their curse also, by not working.

A true relationship of man and wife in Elohim, is one where the husband works and rules over his wife and she brings forth children.

The scriptures are clear on the matter!


Daron

 

[JillLars]

A true relationship is one in which the husband and wife love each other as Christ loved the church. I don't see any reason to put down women who don't allow their husbands to rule over them, and husbands who have no desire to rule over their wives. In Christ we are no longer cursed, he has wiped our souls clean, and we are to love one another as he loves us.

 

[Mark the Builder]

In Genesis Adam and Eve seemed to have a cooperative relationship. They shared equally in authority and responsibility. But after the fall there seems to be a definite break in that relationship. For instance, Gen. 3:16 God tells the woman that part of her curse will be -- "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

I understand that conjures up all sorts of negative images in our mind but definitely the battle of the sexes began at that moment.

I believe what happened there is that God designated headship to the man. And later in the New Testament Paul reaffirms this in his writings. But the thought behind headship is not one is better than the other but headship was instituted for the sake of order. It doesn't mean that men are to Lord it over the women and dominate them. There has to be a submissive spirit and attitude on part of both husband and wife to one another. And if the relationship is right equal submission will result in a loving enviornment controlled by the Lord.

 

[lands21]

My wife and I look at it this way, the husband is the appointed leader over the household, however, he must love his wife as Christ loved the church. This does not mean that I get to choose what we have dinner every night (thought I sometimes try!! )

We something serous is happening, Jen and I discuss it, then if we disagree, we will go with my decision because Jen has to trust in God, and the He is leading me. Therefore my decisions must be what are best for my wife and my family, not what is best for me.

I find people read this passage and they think men rule everything, and I believe that is a mis interpretation. Men are the head of the house hold, but it is a responsibility given to us by God that we must take seriously. If we strive to be like Jesus, and we also do what we feel is best for our wives and family, there shouldn't be any issues.

 

[lands21]

Eph 5:22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body.

Eph 5:24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;

Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,

Eph 5:27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Eph 5:28 Even so ought husbands also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his own wife loveth himself:

Eph 5:29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as Christ also the church;

Eph 5:30 because we are members of his body.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This mystery is great: but I speak in regard of Christ and of the church.



Eph 5:33 Nevertheless do ye also severally love each one his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she fear her husband.

Versus for thought

 

[Messenger]

My wife and I look at it this way, the husband is the appointed leader over the household, however, he must love his wife as Christ loved the church. This does not mean that I get to choose what we have dinner every night (thought I sometimes try!! )

We something serous is happening, Jen and I discuss it, then if we disagree, we will go with my decision because Jen has to trust in God, and the He is leading me. Therefore my decisions must be what are best for my wife and my family, not what is best for me.

I find people read this passage and they think men rule everything, and I believe that is a mis interpretation. Men are the head of the house hold, but it is a responsibility given to us by God that we must take seriously. If we strive to be like Jesus, and we also do what we feel is best for our wives and family, there shouldn't be any issues.

Amen....I agree...although in my marriage its always "Go ask your mother" I'd love to hand the pants over to a husband who could do the job...."Go ask your Father" that is how it was ment to be...Mom's have too much work already...being boss isn't all it's cracked up to be. It is a job...a job a man should hold in honor.

Love and God Bless,
Messenger

 

[beetlequeendiva]

Mmm I am single, and have never been in a serious relationship but I think that women should be submissive to an extent but a man should love his wife and not think he can take advantage of her submissiveness.

 

[Crazy Liz]

In Genesis Adam and Eve seemed to have a cooperative relationship. They shared equally in authority and responsibility. But after the fall there seems to be a definite break in that relationship. For instance, Gen. 3:16 God tells the woman that part of her curse will be -- "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

I understand that conjures up all sorts of negative images in our mind but definitely the battle of the sexes began at that moment.

I suppse "the battle of the sexes" began when the man distinguished his part in eating the fruit from his wife's part in eating the fruit. (Just as an aside, it is not proper to refer to them as Adam and Eve at this poit in time. They were both Adam, male and female. It was only after God pronounced the curse, "He shall rule over you," that the man gave a separate name to the woman, claiming the same dominance God had given humans over the animals. I'm involved in a separate discussion about Genesis 3 in the Morality forum, so I probably won't elaborate on this point here.)

I believe what happened there is that God designated headship to the man. And later in the New Testament Paul reaffirms this in his writings. But the thought behind headship is not one is better than the other but headship was instituted for the sake of order. It doesn't mean that men are to Lord it over the women and dominate them. There has to be a submissive spirit and attitude on part of both husband and wife to one another. And if the relationship is right equal submission will result in a loving enviornment controlled by the Lord.

I agree about mutual submission. "Headship" is a concept that comes from a particular interpretation of scripture. IOW, a couple of scriptures use the word "head," but it is not clear that this implies a position or condition of "headship." But perhaps that's getting too technical.

 

[Crazy Liz]

So the obedience thing, is it a cultural thing that can be thrown out, or is it still valid today?

Obedience is cultural. It has already been thrown out. Husband to not have legal and social rights to control their wives' behavior.

If you look at the scriptures in Ephesians, Colossians and 1 Peter that talk about husband-wife relationships, you will see what is really being discussed is how to show Christian love, mutual submission and equality of dignity in relationships defined in the culture by domination and control - husband-wife, parent-child, master -slave.

For me, I would want a wife one day that obeys me, but as the bible says, I would love her. I would want the relationship to be that I love her and cherish her so much that her opinions mean a lot to me and her wishes for the family - I would think a great deal about, but when the final decision came, she would gladly submit to what I decided was best for the family. As I heard once, a 50-50 marriage isn't wedlock - it's deadlock.

This whole idea of "the final decison" is an interesting one. It comes up over and over. Recent research on male and female brain anatomy and physiology actually makes some sense of this concept, but not in the way we usually think of it. Male humans have fewer connections between the two halves of their brains than female humans. Apparently, the greater number of connections help females to see a problem from many angles, some of which she can logically explain (left brain) and some of which she can't (right brain - intuition). However, there is a price to pay for this more thorough processing - time. Men make quicker decisions, though not better ones.

So the idea of the man making a decision when it has to be made quickly has become a pattern of human culture, while at the same time, women are often consulted for their greater insight and wisdom.

Problems can arise when we institutionalize these general tendencies, though. The mutuality described in the NT scriptures allow each couple to adjust their roles to fit their own abilities and preferences. So the couple that chooses a kind of relationship they call 50/50 is not wrong, and neither is a couple that chooses one with a strict division of labor or one that thinks of their relationship in terms of hierarchy, so long as they freely and lovingly work it out.

 

[snoopyloopysk8a]

I think women should obey their husband, but men should also obey their wives.

 

[adam332]

Peter North,
you said;
It also mentons women keeping silence in the church. My pastor told me that this was a long time ago when women were not educated, but now it has become part of society now that women are smarter and are therefore qualified to speak and pray in a place of worship.

Your pastor is incorrect. The Bible tells us exactly why the statement about silence in the church was made...all he needed to do was read the rest of the chapter.

The general context of this passage appears to be concerning the teaching of God's word and that God is not the author of chaos. Simply put; when the word is being taught, keep your mouth shut.

1Cor. 14:
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first HOLD HIS PEACE.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
________
________

In that area and during that time, the church of Corinth was coming out of a Pagan system of worship. The solemn service of worship and teaching was not at all what many of them were used to. The church was also segregated, men seated on one side, women on the other.

Let's give this a modern setting and think about it.

Imagine going to church and hearing your buddies wife call out questions about the sermon to her husband across the church and in the middle of the preaching. Would this not be disruptive? Would not an inspired man such as Paul even today ask for the husbands to urge their wives to WAIT until they got home to ask such questions?

 

[colossi3]

colossi3: If we can see the word of God as being the same today, yesterday and forever, then what the word meant in the beginning, it means the same today. The word is never dependent on culture of man.
Neither can the word always and only be understood/applied literally. I really believe that when AP. Paul speaks of the husband and the wife, he is referring to Christ and his bride -the church. All members of Christ's body, though, should in 'honor prefer one another': look out for the other's welfare more than his/her own. It is never godly behavior for either one or the other to simply impose his/her arbitrary will on him/her for whom Christ died. "In Christ Jesus there is no Jew or Greek, no bond or free, no male or female.."

 

[Messenger]

We went over this in church yesterday and one man said he believes that God told us what we needed to know....God doesn't tell us to breath because that already comes natural. God tellls woman to obey their husband a man need a womans support it is what makes him feel like a man being submissive may not come natural for a woman. A woman need love and the Bible tells a man to love his wife as Jesus loved the church...what greater love. So by this a man is given his need (to be leader) and a woman hers (to be loved). My pastor said that many times this is interpret that a woman must be a mans slave and do unethical things...my pastor believes this goes along with obeying the laws of man as long as they do not go against the laws of God. We only have to be submissive as long as it is not against God's law.

Another point one man made was that the verses in scripture that apply to the woman obeying their husbands are not written to the husbands so maybe the husbands should not worry about those verses and instead focus on the verses which tell them how they should be. Be a man that a woman could be submissive to.

Love and God Bless,
Messenger

 

[Peter North]

Thanks to everyone who replied. As I suspected, a couple who walks with God, this shouldn't even be an issue. If they let the Spirit guide them and put God as the center of their lives and family, I don't think there is too much to worry about.

 

[pmarquette]

It is a matter of mutual trust and counsel ...Men have some abilities that women do not ; women have some perceptions that men do not ; they were designed to work together as hand in glove or penut butter and jelly .....

Men can be single minded to overcome , go and do
Women can nurture , counsel , and oversee

We should not compete with one another ,
We should not use sexuality as a crow bar or coersion
we should speak , resolve , comprimise , and put behind us , troubles , perceptions etc. that come against us .
We should be as shepherd and sheep ; as Jesus and 12 , as Fathers and church [ a team ]