Why is Our Faith Shallow? Part III: We Stopped Catechising

[Stephen3141]

We Stopped Catechising

Why is our Faith Shallow III How does the average new Christian in your church learn the faith? I’m sure you have some sort of membership process and maybe run some different programmes but I wonde…

nuakh.uk

This article was referenced from a Protestant Fundamentalist web site.

I agree whole-heartedly with the conclusion, although I disagree some
on the description of the dynamics involved, and the results of not catechizing.
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Topics mentioned in the article...

1 Some sort of teaching of "beliefs"/doctrines is necessary.
Some Christian groups incorporate this into preparing a person to join the
people of God, or incorporate this into teaching new Christians so that they
are more knowledgeable in the faith.

My comments on the points, are prefeaced by "---" ...

--- The article is from a Protestant Fundamentalist point of view. It denies that
the "faith" is a body of knowledge. However, one of the biblical uses of pistis
("faith") is as a body of knowledge, so I have to disagree on this point with the
article. Consider...

In the world-class NT lexicon (BDAG, 818-820), under pistis("faith" in English translations), there are the meanings...
"1 that which evokes trust and faith, the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment"
"2 state of believing on the basis on the reliability of the one trusted, trust, confidence, faith" specifically lists Ephesians 3.12 under the subheading of "of faith in Christ".
"3 that which is believed, body of faith/belief/teaching"

From the New Testament vocabulary, it is possible to have faith in all sorts of people or things ("faith" is not a uniquely Christian concept). And so, Christians must deal with the topic of misplaced faith.

--- Protestant Fundamentalists often do not believe that "faith" can refer to a
body of beliefs, simply because they are taught that the early creeds of the
Church are not necessary knowledge, in order to join God's People.
This ignores that the Nicene Creed was used as a template to teach those
who wanted to become Christians, in the early centuries of Christianity.
(Whether or not the doctrines in the Nicene creed, had the name "Nicene
Creed" when this body of beliefs was used to catechize.) This is a cultural
problem, and is not compatible with the New Testament's meanings of
"faith".

2 The faith is a way of being in the world.
I agree with this. But, following Jesus as King, is undefined behavior, apart
from the deposit of Apostolic teaching that we call "the faith". You can't "follow
Jesus as King", using any definition that feels right to you.

3 How do you teach your children the faith?
The article is correct, that we should not pawn this off on some day care
group. Parents have got to be involved.

4 One mark of how well a child has learned "the faith", is their ability to
answer questions about "the faith". We should not be afraid of using this
method of asking questions (there is a cultural problem in America,
where many educators and parents think that it is not a good/positive thing to
ask kids questions, and show up their ignorance). We should not be afraid of
learning that we are ignorant, as a first step in learning.

5 Sound preaching is good, but it is not quite the same as catechism.

--- In one way, preaching is not like ancient preaching in the Church.
In North Africa, we have people in the congregration interacting with
the great Christian teachers, as they preached. The pagan philosophers
might raise objections to the preaching, and probably the Christian
congregation would voice their approval of the orthodox doctrines being
taught.

6 The article brings up that it would be helpful to use a printed catechism.
The author suggests The New City Catechism. Of course Catholics would
use the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

--- The advantage of using a printed catechism, is that you can look up topics,
and there are definitions right in front of you. You may not agree with the
definitions. But at least you know what precisely you don't agree with. So
there is a path of discussion, and a path to ask questions about all sorts of
topics.

7 The author of the article mentions that one of the problems with NOT
catechizing, is that you will get pastors who do not know the doctrines of
the faith, (and so, cannot catechize others).

--- I would add that there are a dozen SERIOUS problems with NOT catechizing...
and that some of these problems will not fully present themselves, for a few
generations after a group has stopped actively catechizing...

(a) There is a degeneration in congregations, of what "the faith" is.
This leads to all sorts of "cultural Christianity", that is not orthodox.
(b) The New Covenant that the New Testament describes, is a formal covenant
between God and mankind. God will give us guaranteed benefits, IF we
hold to required behavior and belief. Do we really expect God to change the
terms of the agreement (to forgive our sins, and make us holy), if we are
generationally forgetting the terms of this agreement? Can we stop paying
our mortgage agreement, and still keep our house???
(c) A formal class on catechism OUGHT TO present basic models of
what reality is
how we perceive reality
what good evidence is, for believing something
what lying about reality is (such as in "You shall not lie!")
how we can choose to mis-perceive reality
that there is a MORAL-ETHICAL OUGHT to properly perceive reality
that reality is NOT whatever I assert it is, or wish it to be
that conspiracy theories are explanations of reality, that are NOT
demonstrated to be true; and so, holding and propagating
conspiracy theories involves "bearing false witness" about reality.
and THAT is a serious and forbidden sin in Christianity and Judaism.

NOTE: most of the younger generations of Americans, and the "electronic
screen" genertions, cannot intelligently discuss what reality is, or how we
have a moral-ethical ought to perceive reality accurately, or what evidence is,
or what knowing is. Becasue of this, they do not understand one of the very
basic teachings of Jesus, about reality and perceiving and believing.
"Be careful how you hear!"

(d) As soon as orthodox catechism stops, then that generation of Christians
is no longer equipped to explain/defend the faith (Christian apologetics stops),
and the entrance requirements (to join God's People) and the continuing
living requirements of the new covenant, and the exit requirements (for
leaving the new covenant) ARE NO LONGER UNDERSTOOD.

This means that we will have congregational members who conder themselves
to be "Christians" or "Catholic Christians" or "Orthodox Christians" who are
using a false measure of what it is to be a Christian. This is not benign! This
creates new impediments in congregational members, that an orthodox pastor/
teacher must overcome.

When orthodox catechism stops, then there are generations of people who
consider themselves to be Christians, and who may be "evangelizing" for
some other faith, but not for "the faith once delivered to the saints".

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This article brings up crucial questions, about how the Christian faith is
described, and passed on to new generations.

Although the questions raised are good, many of the crucial topics that
SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED, were not addressed. And, this is
probably because the author is not using a definition of "faith" from the
Greek New Testament, and is projecting an anti-intellectual view of
what Christianity is.

 

[RileyG]

After Vatican II, a vast majority of Catholics are poorly catechized and do not know what the Church teaches. That's been my experience.

How sad.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

After Vatican II, a vast majority of Catholics are poorly catechized and do not know what the Church teaches. That's been my experience.

How sad.

I think the opposite is true. Vatican II gave us the RCIA for people desiring to enter the Church.

The problem is with people baptized as infants. They might get some catechism as children but after high school it all seems to stop.

Adult education is usually available but people have to have the time and desire to go..

 

[RileyG]

I think the opposite is true. Vatican II gave us the RCIA for people desiring to enter the Church.

The problem is with people baptized as infants. They might get some catechism as children but after high school it all seems to stop.

Adult education is usually available but people have to have the time and desire to go..

For cradle Catholics, I think they are poorly catechized.

Many adults probably don’t care, in my opinion.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

For cradle Catholics, I think they are poorly catechized.

Many adults probably don’t care, in my opinion.

Yes, I think maybe they don't want to rattle their faith with questions. Just get on with life and its responsibilities. Don't have time for theology.
And yet we see a hunger for spirituality.

 

[okay]

7 The author of the article mentions that one of the problems with NOT
catechizing, is that you will get pastors who do not know the doctrines of
the faith, (and so, cannot catechize others).

I can see how this might make sense in traditions where the only required ‘credential’ for clergy is to be called by the congregation. But does this make sense for traditions that require seminary for all clergy? I haven’t been to seminary and have been assuming that an MDiv program would include orthodox Christian theology. Is that a bad assumption?

 

[RileyG]

Yes, I think maybe they don't want to rattle their faith with questions. Just get on with life and its responsibilities. Don't have time for theology.
And yet we see a hunger for spirituality.

Ok.

 

[Richard T]

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
the word there is rhema, the spoken word of God. We do not read the word enough and allow God to speak to us directly. Confessing the word will increase your faith though, because God can speak to you through that. say it enough hand it will hopefully be a part of you. If catechism has God's word in it, then I can see how it could be helpful. Actions too help one's faith. If Jesus' disciples never tried to cast out demons they would never have known their faith was weak. Actions show us where we stand. In the laying on of hands for healing in James 5, it says the "prayer of faith will save the sick."
I imagine we are worse than Jonah sometimes. He heard from God, he had faith that his message of repentance might actually save Nineveh but he did not want them saved so he fled. Our faith is less because often we hear nothing from God, so therefore we do nothing out of ignorance. May God remove our blinders and speak to us His will through whatever means so that we may be a bold Christian.

 

[Stephen3141]

I can see how this might make sense in traditions where the only required ‘credential’ for clergy is to be called by the congregation. But does this make sense for traditions that require seminary for all clergy? I haven’t been to seminary and have been assuming that an MDiv program would include orthodox Christian theology. Is that a bad assumption?

The numbered points are points in the article.
The article appeared on a Protestant Fundamentalist site.
The low church Protestant Fundamentalists often do not respect "academic"
degrees, so often do not require a seminary degree for their pastors.

This view, is not my view.

 

[RileyG]

The numbered points are points in the article.
The article appeared on a Protestant Fundamentalist site.
The low church Protestant Fundamentalists often do not respect "academic"
degrees, so often do not require a seminary degree for their pastors.

This view, is not my view.

I don’t think Joel Osteen, who is a lay preacher, doesn’t even have a theology degree.

 

[Arcangl86]

I don’t think Joel Osteen, who is a lay preacher, doesn’t even have a theology degree.

He's ordained, but you are right education-wise. He actually doesn't have any college degree at all I think though he did attend college.

 

[okay]

I don’t think Joel Osteen, who is a lay preacher, doesn’t even have a theology degree.

I have heard the name before but don't know anything about him. Of course there can be gifted preachers who are self-taught, but for most pastors I think earning the degree is probably a better idea. I have never had a pastor that didn't have at least the MDiv, and the one that had a PhD in theology was the best at communicating nuance.

 

[RileyG]

I have heard the name before but don't know anything about him. Of course there can be gifted preachers who are self-taught, but for most pastors I think earning the degree is probably a better idea. I have never had a pastor that didn't have at least the MDiv, and the one that had a PhD in theology was the best at communicating nuance.

He has a mega-Church named Lakewood in Houston, Texas. He's been affiliated with the Word of Faith and Charismatic movment. His father was a former Southern Baptist Preacher who founded the current Church.

 

[okay]

He has a mega-Church named Lakewood in Houston, Texas. He's been affiliated with the Word of Faith and Charismatic movment. His father was a former Southern Baptist Preacher who founded the current Church.

Just looked him up. Apparently has a net worth the order of $100 Million. For a second-generation preacher that seems suspect unless their family has old money or his wife had money when he married her.

 

[Arcangl86]

Just looked him up. Apparently has a net worth the order of $100 Million. For a second-generation preacher that seems suspect unless their family has old money or his wife had money when he married her.

The estimates I've read are closer to $50. Which yes, is a lot of money, but he's also an incredibly popular author. People underestimate the financial impact of a good book.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I have heard the name before but don't know anything about him. Of course there can be gifted preachers who are self-taught, but for most pastors I think earning the degree is probably a better idea. I have never had a pastor that didn't have at least the MDiv, and the one that had a PhD in theology was the best at communicating nuance.

Just as there is an anti-educational, anti-science movement within our culture, so also it exists within religion. Some people believe that all one needs is a call from God, the Bible and there they go. No education, no training, no accountability.

Education is a frightening thing. The more one learns, the more one becomes aware of how little they know and how much more there is to explore. It can challenge our confidence in what we think we know. So we each have a choice. We can stay in our protected ignorance thinking we know all we need to know. Or we can look at new information and ideas and perhaps revise what we think.

 

[RileyG]

Just looked him up. Apparently has a net worth the order of $100 Million. For a second-generation preacher that seems suspect unless their family has old money or his wife had money when he married her.

He preaches the prosperity gospel. Him and Joyce Meyers are very wealthy compared to most.