Why do some Catholic leaders seem irreligious? And what is the data on Catholic Priests and other leaders who lost faith during or after retiring?

[HKDR]

I recently began experimenting with a Catholic church and became curious how many of them are atheists or may become atheists. I have read statistics suggesting that as many as 4 in 5 "abandon traditional theology" while 2 in 5 will leave the Catholic church. To me, these statistics seem unrealistically high but when I was in inside an actual Catholic church recently (Palm Sunday) and their clergy style seemed extremely unenthusiastic to the point that I became convinced that there are many of them who are irreligious. Their service almost sounded sarcastic, like it was some SNL skit to mock how the Catholic church is all tradition and no religion (as some Protestants retort). I might just be too unfamiliar with the Catholic church's traditions, but I don't understand their worship style and each service is kinda repetitive. I almost feel like I'm watching the exact same movie over and over when I go to this particular Catholic church.

To me, this simple fact seems extremely discouraging toward experimenting more with the Catholic faith. I agree with the Catholic principle that all who espouse belief that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and are saved through baptism, faith, and works will enter heaven regardless of denomination (as I don't believe any denomination that denies these things is truly "Christian"). But I'd rather be protestant my whole life than enter a denomination with a poor track history of having religious leaders who are actually religious. The fact that as many as 81% are pretending is a statistic that hurts. Some statistics claim it is lower however, but never a number lower than 1 in 3 being irreligious. I want to believe that it's rare but when common people in most Christian nations are (statistically speaking) more religious than your religious leaders, that's a huge problem.

Forgive me if you're Catholic and this post offends you. I'm curious about those two things primarily: why do Catholics worship in such a lackluster manner that it seems as if they don't actually believe a word they are saying, and what is the data on those who lose their faith? And what could actually be the reason they lose their faith? I was on Quora and some users claimed it's because of the rules on Catholic priests, who are required to abstain from marriage or any form of romance. News of sex abuse scandals between the clergy and parishioners have also been cited as motivating factors for them to lose their faith and become apostates of Christianity, either openly or secretly.

Regardless, I'd love to be educated by either Catholics or others who may know the answer or part of the answer. Thank you and God bless you all this Easter Sunday evening (from the east USA).

 

[PloverWing]

I might just be too unfamiliar with the Catholic church's traditions, but I don't understand their worship style and each service is kinda repetitive. I almost feel like I'm watching the exact same movie over and over when I go to this particular Catholic church.

I can't comment on the enthusiasm level of this particular congregation, without having met them. But I can comment on your quote, since I attend a liturgical church (that is, one whose worship format is similar to that used by Catholics).

The worship service is most definitely repetitive. We say the same words over and over, week after week, until they get woven into our being. For me, the result is that phrases from the liturgy will come to mind as I'm going through my daily life, encountering various situations. They also, over time, shape how I think about God and God's love for us.

Perhaps you have favorite hymns or worship songs whose words bring you closer to God every time you sing them, even though you've sung that same song before -- maybe even because you've sung that same song before. Or perhaps you have a favorite Psalm that you can easily recite and that's close to your heart, like Psalm 23. It's something like that.

 

[Federicco]

I recently began experimenting with a Catholic church and became curious how many of them are atheists or may become atheists. I have read statistics suggesting that as many as 4 in 5 "abandon traditional theology" while 2 in 5 will leave the Catholic church.

Nonsense, the opposite is true.

 

[HKDR]

I can't comment on the enthusiasm level of this particular congregation, without having met them. But I can comment on your quote, since I attend a liturgical church (that is, one whose worship format is similar to that used by Catholics).

The worship service is most definitely repetitive. We say the same words over and over, week after week, until they get woven into our being. For me, the result is that phrases from the liturgy will come to mind as I'm going through my daily life, encountering various situations. They also, over time, shape how I think about God and God's love for us.

Perhaps you have favorite hymns or worship songs whose words bring you closer to God every time you sing them, even though you've sung that same song before -- maybe even because you've sung that same song before. Or perhaps you have a favorite Psalm that you can easily recite and that's close to your heart, like Psalm 23. It's something like that.

Thank you for your reply and I do think you make a solid point on that subject involving repetition (as it may be beneficial), but it does leave the door open to whether this is unusual for a Catholic church on the enthusiasm thing. Best way I can describe it is like the Priest speaking with a blunt yet sarcastic tone for the full service. Like he’d rather not be there or as if he felt ashamed of his position. I do respect your point that it’s impossible for you to gauge this issue effectively, but I do think it may be normal to an extent for Catholic churches to be more monotone than Protestant churchss. That’s my assumption based on what I have previously known but it seems very out of place when we’re talking about the literal King of the cosmos, Creator of Heaven and the universe, and Redeemer of humanity. I just don’t get why they seem sarcastic because it gives off the impression that they don’t care which statistically speaking, could actually be the case. It’s a little discouraging.

 

[HKDR]

Nonsense, the opposite is true.

Thank you for the reply but an elaboration would be much appreciated. My statistic is based on a surface level Google search. If 1 in 5 loses faith, which is WAY better than 4 in 5 by a MILE (actual percentage I read was 81%), then I'd prefer either a source or just a general explanation of what the reality is so I can do the research myself. I would be more comfortable knowing that Catholicism isn't a likely path to atheism and then inevitably, a path to the lake of fire. These statistics may not directly pertain to me as I don't believe God's plan for me is to be a priest or any other type of formal religious leader (because of my stuttering issue even if I am a decent public speaker), I just don't think I'd want to spend time in a parish that doesn't believe in what they preach. I may not be able to prove it but I am going to this church again next Sunday and if their preaching continues to convince me that they're not Christian at all, then I'll consider a protestant church like what I've been going to since I was 17 a couple years ago.

 

[PloverWing]

I want to pin down the statistics a bit more here.

I recently began experimenting with a Catholic church and became curious how many of them are atheists or may become atheists. I have read statistics suggesting that as many as 4 in 5 "abandon traditional theology" while 2 in 5 will leave the Catholic church.

But I'd rather be protestant my whole life than enter a denomination with a poor track history of having religious leaders who are actually religious. The fact that as many as 81% are pretending is a statistic that hurts.

Are your statistics talking about the clergy or the lay members? If you're talking about the clergy, then I'd be very very surprised if 81% of Catholic priests are "pretending". Can you give me a source for this?

If you're talking about the laity, then that's more plausible, though I'd like more detail on what you mean by "abandon traditional theology". I'll also note that changing beliefs and pretending about one's beliefs are two quite different things.


Regarding this observation:

Best way I can describe it is like the Priest speaking with a blunt yet sarcastic tone for the full service. Like he’d rather not be there or as if he felt ashamed of his position.

This sounds like a critique of this particular priest. Perhaps he doesn't have the gift of public speaking, or perhaps (unfortunately) he has an abrasive personality. I haven't encountered any sense of sarcasm from the priests in the Catholic services I've attended. If the priest in the church you visited has a personality that clashes with yours, I'd recommend visiting a couple of other Catholic parishes before making an overall decision about Catholic clergy as a whole.

 

[linux.poet]

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This thread has been moved from The Junk Drawer to Denomination Specific Theology. ​

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[The Liturgist]

To me, these statistics seem unrealistically high but when I was in inside an actual Catholic church recently (Palm Sunday) and their clergy style seemed extremely unenthusiastic to the point that I became convinced that there are many of them who are irreligious.

You should have visited a Traditional Latin Mass chapel (most are operated by the canonical FSSP and ICKSP and a few other traditional groups, for example, there are traditional Norbertine canons regular in Southern California). They tend to be packed and very enthusiastic in my experience, and the ambience is very similiar to an Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Assyrian parish.

Likewise some of the sui juris Eastern Catholic parishes give off that same quality of deep devotion, as do some Oratories and other parishes and shrines where the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated with extreme reverence. Also the Cathedral in Milan, center of the Ambrosian Rite, tends to attract good crowds despite the Ambrosian Rite liturgy also having undergone equally ill-advised revision during the pontificate of Paul VI.

 

[The Liturgist]

I can't comment on the enthusiasm level of this particular congregation, without having met them. But I can comment on your quote, since I attend a liturgical church (that is, one whose worship format is similar to that used by Catholics).

The worship service is most definitely repetitive. We say the same words over and over, week after week, until they get woven into our being. For me, the result is that phrases from the liturgy will come to mind as I'm going through my daily life, encountering various situations. They also, over time, shape how I think about God and God's love for us.

Perhaps you have favorite hymns or worship songs whose words bring you closer to God every time you sing them, even though you've sung that same song before -- maybe even because you've sung that same song before. Or perhaps you have a favorite Psalm that you can easily recite and that's close to your heart, like Psalm 23. It's something like that.

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, which are probably the most liturgical churches in terms of the ornate complexity of our services, have been blessed with an incredible number of catechumens since the end of the pandemic. Traditional Roman Catholic communities and traditional Anglican parishes including the more traditional Episcopal parishes, even those not conservative (but not anti-conservative), like St. Thomas Fifth Ave, are also seeing increased membership.

 

[concretecamper]

The OP is vague and contains claims about statistics with no references. So far, we have opinion.

Let's see some facts and citations, and some specific examples and I may respond.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you for the reply but an elaboration would be much appreciated. My statistic is based on a surface level Google search. If 1 in 5 loses faith, which is WAY better than 4 in 5 by a MILE (actual percentage I read was 81%), then I'd prefer either a source or just a general explanation of what the reality is so I can do the research myself. I would be more comfortable knowing that Catholicism isn't a likely path to atheism and then inevitably, a path to the lake of fire. These statistics may not directly pertain to me as I don't believe God's plan for me is to be a priest or any other type of formal religious leader (because of my stuttering issue even if I am a decent public speaker), I just don't think I'd want to spend time in a parish that doesn't believe in what they preach. I may not be able to prove it but I am going to this church again next Sunday and if their preaching continues to convince me that they're not Christian at all, then I'll consider a protestant church like what I've been going to since I was 17 a couple years ago.

Barna has some recent polling that 92% of Catholic clergy actually believe the creeds. A couple percent think they 'probably' believe them. Then there are six percent that are either nonbelievers or confirmed skeptics. That is too high a percentage, but less dismal than your numbers.

Catholicism isn't generally a path to atheism. If anything was a path to atheism I would guess mainline Protestant ho hum attitudes would get you there OR fundamentalist anti-intellectual attitudes when reality comes knocking and one has to decide to continue being anti-intellectual or abandon it all.

I wouldn't want to be in a parish where they didn't believe in what they preached. I'd run for the door. Happily I think that is somewhat uncommon. My parish is not at all that way, nor the other parishes I frequent from time to time. Maybe you found a real loser parish. Just saying they are definitely not all that way. Don't judge us all by this one experience.

 

[Jermayn]

I recently began experimenting with a Catholic church and became curious how many of them are atheists or may become atheists. I have read statistics suggesting that as many as 4 in 5 "abandon traditional theology" while 2 in 5 will leave the Catholic church. To me, these statistics seem unrealistically high but when I was in inside an actual Catholic church recently (Palm Sunday) and their clergy style seemed extremely unenthusiastic to the point that I became convinced that there are many of them who are irreligious. Their service almost sounded sarcastic, like it was some SNL skit to mock how the Catholic church is all tradition and no religion (as some Protestants retort). I might just be too unfamiliar with the Catholic church's traditions, but I don't understand their worship style and each service is kinda repetitive. I almost feel like I'm watching the exact same movie over and over when I go to this particular Catholic church.

To me, this simple fact seems extremely discouraging toward experimenting more with the Catholic faith. I agree with the Catholic principle that all who espouse belief that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and are saved through baptism, faith, and works will enter heaven regardless of denomination (as I don't believe any denomination that denies these things is truly "Christian"). But I'd rather be protestant my whole life than enter a denomination with a poor track history of having religious leaders who are actually religious. The fact that as many as 81% are pretending is a statistic that hurts. Some statistics claim it is lower however, but never a number lower than 1 in 3 being irreligious. I want to believe that it's rare but when common people in most Christian nations are (statistically speaking) more religious than your religious leaders, that's a huge problem.

Forgive me if you're Catholic and this post offends you. I'm curious about those two things primarily: why do Catholics worship in such a lackluster manner that it seems as if they don't actually believe a word they are saying, and what is the data on those who lose their faith? And what could actually be the reason they lose their faith? I was on Quora and some users claimed it's because of the rules on Catholic priests, who are required to abstain from marriage or any form of romance. News of sex abuse scandals between the clergy and parishioners have also been cited as motivating factors for them to lose their faith and become apostates of Christianity, either openly or secretly.

Regardless, I'd love to be educated by either Catholics or others who may know the answer or part of the answer. Thank you and God bless you all this Easter Sunday evening (from the east USA).

Not Catholic so I can't speak on most of this, but the sex abuse scandals that happen so often are most likely due to people who are experiencing same-sex attraction becoming Priests to try to resist the temptation. That obviously doesn't work.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not Catholic so I can't speak on most of this, but the sex abuse scandals that happen so often are most likely due to people who are experiencing same-sex attraction becoming Priests to try to resist the temptation. That obviously doesn't work.

In the Orthodox Church we have married priests, so all of our priests are either married, widowers, or are celibate monastics who live in monasteries and who have to discern a monastic vocation, and then once a monk must be discerned worthy of a deaconate and then a priesthood.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not Catholic so I can't speak on most of this, but the sex abuse scandals that happen so often are most likely due to people who are experiencing same-sex attraction becoming Priests to try to resist the temptation. That obviously doesn't work.

There are lots of Protestant sex abuse cases, most recently unearthed in the Southern Baptists. Something not working there either.

 

[RileyG]

The OP is vague and contains claims about statistics with no references. So far, we have opinion.

Let's see some facts and citations, and some specific examples and I may respond.

This. I agree completely.

 

[RileyG]

There are lots of Protestant sex abuse cases, most recently unearthed in the Southern Baptists. Something not working there either.

I will also add, I don’t agree with homosexuals being ordained to the priesthood. It’s a recipe for disaster as we have sadly seen time and time again.

 

[The Liturgist]

I will also add, I don’t agree with homosexuals being ordained to the priesthood. It’s a recipe for disaster as we have sadly seen time and time again.

Indeed. The ancient canons of the early church completely disqualify persons who engage in sexual perversion from holy orders. Canon I of the Council of Nicaea also prohibits the ordination of trans-sexual individuals and men with vasectomies, in that it disqualifies men who have voluntarily and without medical necessity been castrated, as the council fathers at Nicaea regarded this as self-murder. Finally the ancient canons also disqualify men who are polygamists, and men who are divorced and remarried are also disqualified. These canons are directly in force in the Orthodox Church and I would assume they have been transposed into the modern canon law of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[concretecamper]

In the Orthodox Church we have married priests

I'm not sure how this is an relevant response about the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Indeed. The ancient canons of the early church completely disqualify persons who engage in sexual perversion from holy orders. Canon I of the Council of Nicaea also prohibits the ordination of trans-sexual individuals and men with vasectomies, in that it disqualifies men who have voluntarily and without medical necessity been castrated, as the council fathers at Nicaea regarded this as self-murder. Finally the ancient canons also disqualify men who are polygamists, and men who are divorced and remarried are also disqualified. These canons are directly in force in the Orthodox Church and I would assume they have been transposed into the modern canon law of the Roman Catholic Church.

Just a quick thought. Would ordaining such people be invalid in your opinion or would it be valid but illegal? I think they never should have been ordained. I think they should be dismissed. But were they ever validly ordained. I fear the answer is ‘yes’.

 

[Valletta]

I recently began experimenting with a Catholic church and became curious how many of them are atheists or may become atheists. I have read statistics suggesting that as many as 4 in 5 "abandon traditional theology" while 2 in 5 will leave the Catholic church. To me, these statistics seem unrealistically high but when I was in inside an actual Catholic church recently (Palm Sunday) and their clergy style seemed extremely unenthusiastic to the point that I became convinced that there are many of them who are irreligious. Their service almost sounded sarcastic, like it was some SNL skit to mock how the Catholic church is all tradition and no religion (as some Protestants retort). I might just be too unfamiliar with the Catholic church's traditions, but I don't understand their worship style and each service is kinda repetitive. I almost feel like I'm watching the exact same movie over and over when I go to this particular Catholic church.

To me, this simple fact seems extremely discouraging toward experimenting more with the Catholic faith. I agree with the Catholic principle that all who espouse belief that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and are saved through baptism, faith, and works will enter heaven regardless of denomination (as I don't believe any denomination that denies these things is truly "Christian"). But I'd rather be protestant my whole life than enter a denomination with a poor track history of having religious leaders who are actually religious. The fact that as many as 81% are pretending is a statistic that hurts. Some statistics claim it is lower however, but never a number lower than 1 in 3 being irreligious. I want to believe that it's rare but when common people in most Christian nations are (statistically speaking) more religious than your religious leaders, that's a huge problem.

Forgive me if you're Catholic and this post offends you. I'm curious about those two things primarily: why do Catholics worship in such a lackluster manner that it seems as if they don't actually believe a word they are saying, and what is the data on those who lose their faith? And what could actually be the reason they lose their faith? I was on Quora and some users claimed it's because of the rules on Catholic priests, who are required to abstain from marriage or any form of romance. News of sex abuse scandals between the clergy and parishioners have also been cited as motivating factors for them to lose their faith and become apostates of Christianity, either openly or secretly.

Regardless, I'd love to be educated by either Catholics or others who may know the answer or part of the answer. Thank you and God bless you all this Easter Sunday evening (from the east USA).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: 1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."134 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it."

Part Two Section Two The Seven Sacrements Of The Church Chapter One The Sacraments Of Christian Initiation Article 3 The Sacrament Of The Eucharist I. The Eucharist - Source And Summit Of Ecclesial Life

www.vatican.va

Catholics believe they are truly in the presence of Jesus Christ during the mass and what goes on at the mass is considered solemn and holy. Thus there is not a lot of jumping around and such outward expressions of enthusiasm. As to those Catholics who "lose their faith" the vast majority never really had proper understanding of their own faith to begin with. Without such understanding and a solid prayer life Satan is able to lead many away.