Why Crackers and Grape Juice?

David Cabrera said:

Well, those who believe Communion is symbolical might not care that much because it's the "symbol what it counts".

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Traditionally, Baptists insisted communion was an "ordinance". Folks that insist that every part of their body be covered in water in baptism shouldn't be skimping on the wine.

I think I see your point, though, Dave, but I don't think the "symbolic" interpretation is due to serious theology, but to the revivalist shift of evangelicalism in the late 19th century combined with certain assumptions about the material world that are inherent in that kind of religion.

Early Baptists had very similar views about the Lord's Supper as Presbyterians and Congregationalists.

FireDragon76 said:

We try to accommodate peoples needs but at the end of the day, it's a sacred rite or sacrament. Grape juice isn't exactly the same as wine, and without a clear biblical instruction that it is an acceptable subtsitute, churches do not err if they only use wine.

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The use of the word "wine" does not mean it is in reference to an alcoholic substance. That is modern day thinking from an alcohol focused culture.

Wine is Grape Juice in Older Dictionaries:

Wine:
n.
1. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

Source:
Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary
(Please click on the link)

1828 Webster’s Dictionary defines the word “must” as “new wine-wine pressed from the grape, but not fermented.” Note that the unfermented grape juice is here explicitly called “new wine.”

The 1759 Nathan Bailey’s New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences offers the following definition for “wine”: “Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification.”

The eytomology of the word "wine":
"Old Irish fin, Gaelic fion. Essentially the same word as vine.

Wine is Grape Juice in the Bible:

Wine is the blood of the grape:
Genesis 49:11 says,
"Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:"

Deuteronomy 32:14 says,
"Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."
(Contrast with bad wine):

The vineyard is the place of red wine (i.e. red grapes or grape juice):
Isaiah 27:2 says,
"In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine."
Note: There is red wine in the vineyard is natural grape juice because the juice naturally exists inside the clusters of the grape. There is no such thing as a natural vineyard full of intoxicating wine. Grapes within a vineyard need to be crushed and interact with the natural yeast in order for it to ferment.

Wine refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field:
2 Chronicles 31:5 says,
"And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly."

Jeremiah 40:10 says,
"As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken."

Jeremiah 40:12 says,
"Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much."

Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape:
Isaiah 65:8 says,
"Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."

Source used:
What Kind of Wine Did Jesus Drink?

Note:
As for oil in crops:
There is a thing called a Oil Palm:
the oil palm


Source:
wine | Origin and meaning of wine by Online Etymology Dictionary

Source:
MYTHS about WINE and ALCOHOL in the BIBLE (Part 1) - Bible Christian

Jason0047 said:

The use of the word "wine" does not mean it is in reference to an alcoholic substance. That is modern day thinking from an alcohol focused culture.

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Grape juice did not exist as a commercial product in the ancient world due to the presence of wild yeasts on the grapes themselves, which would quickly break down the grape juice within a few days. Grape juice would not be invented until the late 19th century, using pasteurization.

Stop and think for a moment. Are you less sober or more sober or at the same level of sobriety when you take a sip of alcohol? I believe alcohol starts to effect your judgment right away. Even a heavy meal can effect your body in the fact that it can make you more sleepy. But alcohol is different. It actually effects your good judgment. It starts at the first sip and not at .04% or .08%. You had to be effected at some level of percentage of influence before that point.

The Bible says we are to be sober minded in many places. I prefer to play it safe and be sober (as much as possible) and not have my judgment effected in any way by an intoxicating substance.

Then don't drink any fruit juice or eat any fruit, because they all contain the same, or even more, alcohol than what you will find in a sip of communion wine.

Even yogurt and fermented foods have some alcohol. Kefir, a trendy yogurt-like drink, can have up to 2% alcohol. Kombucha is also mildly alcoholic.

There's a reason the human body tolerates alcohol, because we evolved as creatures eating fruit as a substantial part of our diet.

FireDragon76 said:

Grape juice did not exist as a commercial product in the ancient world due to the presence of wild yeasts on the grapes themselves, which would quickly break down the grape juice within a few days. Grape juice would not be invented until the late 19th century, using pasteurization.

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Well, before I provide you a source link to the history of grape juice preservation, you first need to know that there are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical times was mixed with water. This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible. Here is a quick list of the three types of wine in the Bible:


I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb” (Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

David Cabrera said:

I never understood the theology behind that since Jesus had bread and wine. When I was growing up I never had a church that offers bread and wine even when they say they follow the Bible. Does anybody know the reason Evangelical churches have this change?

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The Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Episcopal/Anglican churches do communion with wine. They have no fear of alcohol.

Many Evangelical churches have VERY strong positions against any drinking alcohol or eating things made with alcoholic things what so ever - and so they forbid taking wine at communion.

They couch it with all sorts of scriptural sounding doctrinal statements - but it boils down to a fear of alcoholism and tempting those who suffer from alcoholism.

FireDragon76 said:

Grape juice did not exist as a commercial product in the ancient world due to the presence of wild yeasts on the grapes themselves, which would quickly break down the grape juice within a few days. Grape juice would not be invented until the late 19th century, using pasteurization.

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History of Grape Juice Preservation:
GULF COAST PASTOR: Preserving Unfermented Wine in Bible Times

Also, wine is a source of leaven. Leaven is a reference to sin. The wine was symbolic of His blood. Yet, wouldn't Christ's blood have to be holy and pure in order to cleanse sin?

Anyways, I like your username. I also believe in fire breathing dragons, too. Job 41 comes to mind.

JohnC2 said:

The Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Episcopal/Anglican churches do communion with wine. They have no fear of alcohol.

Many Evangelical churches have VERY strong positions against any drinking alcohol or eating things made with alcoholic things what so ever - and so they forbid taking wine at communion.

They couch it with all sorts of scriptural sounding doctrinal statements - but it boils down to a fear of alcoholism and tempting those who suffer from alcoholism.

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Places like Oklahoma (very Bible belt, Baptisty kind of religion predominates) have some of the strictest controls on alcohol in the country (you can't even buy regular beer in a grocery store, and no wine either), yet have alot of problem drinking going on.

FireDragon76 said:

Places like Oklahoma (very Bible belt, Baptisty kind of religion predominates) have some of the strictest controls on alcohol in the country (you can't even buy regular beer in a grocery store, and no wine either), yet have alot of problem drinking going on.

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Well, I am not a Baptist; In fact, I am strongly against their view of Soteriology because they are OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I am also against the Free Will Baptists who believe in a Non OSAS sin and still be saved type belief, as well. But I am inclined to their Scriptural view on alcohol somewhat because the Bible supports it.

As for the drinking going on in the Baptist regions that have prevented alcohol in certain grocery stores: People are going to find a way to indulge in a particular thing they desire regardless of whether they have easy access to it or not. If they desire it, they will find a way to get it. I do not see how the Prohibition of something proves that alcohol is this fun loving amazing substance, when in reality is it a very destructive drug or mild poison.

The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but it is joy in the Holy Ghost.

FireDragon76 said:

Then don't drink any fruit juice or eat any fruit, because they all contain the same, or even more, alcohol than what you will find in a sip of communion wine.

Even yogurt and fermented foods have some alcohol. Kefir, a trendy yogurt-like drink, can have up to 2% alcohol. Kombucha is also mildly alcoholic.

There's a reason the human body tolerates alcohol, because we evolved as creatures eating fruit as a substantial part of our diet.

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Funny, there is no legal age limit prohibiting me from buying fruit juice or fruit or yogurt, etc. vs. say wine or other alcoholic drinks. Why do you think that is? Also, do all Lutheran and Catholic churches have the exact same amount of percentage of alcohol in each dosage? Could it not vary a bit? Besides, the problem is that the alcoholic gets the taste of the beverage. This wants him to drink more. I don't think that is going to happen if they eat yogurt. Have you gotten drunk after eating yogurt?

Accommodations are made by the churches for recovering alcoholics. If we instead switch everyone to grape juice, which Our Lord did NOT use at the Last Supper, how are we any better off as far as the alcoholic is concerned? We aren't. Meanwhile, we are proceeding in a non-Scriptural way for the whole congregation.

Albion said:

Accommodations are made by the churches for recovering alcoholics. If we instead switch everyone to grape juice, which Our Lord did NOT use at the Last Supper, how are we any better off as far as the alcoholic is concerned? We aren't. Meanwhile, we are proceeding in a non-Scriptural way for the whole congregation.

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If it were wrong for the whole congregation to avoid wine, why is it not wrong for those of us who must avoid wine for medical/addiction reasons? Surely if drinking grape juice is wrong for the whole congregation, it must also be wrong for the individual?

AnnaDeborah said:

If it were wrong for the whole congregation to avoid wine, why is it not wrong for those of us who must avoid wine for medical/addiction reasons?

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I didn't say that it was. However, I think the point stands. If one person has to be accommodated for health reasons--and the churches do that--there is no logical reason for the whole church to adopt a policy that affects every member.

Albion said:

I didn't say that it was.

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I know you didn't - my point is that surely if it is wrong for one person, it is wrong for all. If it is right for one, it is right for all. Otherwise, there seems to be a kind of double standard.

So if you accept someone avoiding alcohol at communion if it will kill them, what about someone who will be seriously ill? If they are allowed to avoid it, what about someone who would become moderately ill? Slightly ill? Someone who would just feel sick for a few minutes?

Reading about the original meal, it was a meal taken together. Having separate bread or wine/juice for different people seems to be at odds with this.

Albion said:

Accommodations are made by the churches for recovering alcoholics. If we instead switch everyone to grape juice, which Our Lord did NOT use at the Last Supper, how are we any better off as far as the alcoholic is concerned? We aren't. Meanwhile, we are proceeding in a non-Scriptural way for the whole congregation.

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If there was no problem with the beverage, then there should be no need for special accommodations to try and make it look like certain people should be treated like they are aliens from the rest of the body. We also have to think that God's ways are for all and His ways do should not lead us into sin or wrong doing.

Besides, there is no Scriptural support for alcoholic wine in the use of the Lord's supper. Jesus refers the beverage drank at the Lord's supper as the fruit of the vine. It's technically no longer the fruit of the vine if the beverage is fermented alcohol. It is no longer just the pure blood of the grape. The Bible talks about wine that is inside the cluster of the grape. So just because it says "wine" in the Bible does not mean it is alcoholic wine.

In addition, yeast that is placed into bread is a symbol of sin. Yeast is also a part of the fermentation process. It foams up like the bread puffs up. Both are types of symbols of sin. The wine at the Lord's supper is symbolic of Christ's blood. His blood is supposed to cleanse us from sin. But if the blood is sinful itself, then we have a problem. How can that which is unclean can anything that is dirty? It can't. We need holy sinless unfermented blood to cleanse us of sin.

AnnaDeborah said:

I know you didn't - my point is that surely if it is wrong for one person, it is wrong for all. If it is right for one, it is right for all. Otherwise, there seems to be a kind of double standard.

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That is your own thinking then? That it is "wrong" to accommodate the alcoholic or persons who cannot take in wheat, etc.?

Jason0047 said:

If there was no problem with the beverage, then there should be no need for special accommodations to try and make it look like certain people should be treated like they are aliens from the rest of the body.

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Do people who have special dietary problems and for whom the church finds a way to work with them at Communion feel that they are being treated as aliens? I have met people and know of people with such needs and not a one has ever talked as though they felt discriminated against or as though they were treated as an outsider because of it. In fact, the rest of the congregation would have to be very, very alert to even know that an accommodation was being made.