Why are "bastards" sent to Hell?

[redking10]

I read in Deuteronomy 23:2 that "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

I am absolutely appalled, especially considering that I am technically a "bastard" (I hate that word). Why does God send someone to hell if he's born outside marriage? Does your church practice this?

 

[Sketcher]

Do not conflate the Israelite assembly with the church of today. Old Testament worship was in concentric layers - you had the people, then the priests, then the Holy Place, then the Most Holy Place where the high priest could only enter once a year. It was veiled by a thick curtain, and they would even tie a rope around the High Priest's ankle in case he had sinned such that God would strike him dead in the Most Holy Place. They wanted to be able to get him out of there without entering!

But when Jesus died, that curtain was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). This symbolized that the old order of having to be good enough, holy enough to come to God had passed away. Direct access to God was now open to everybody, through Jesus. This includes "bastards" and those born with "defects."

 

[redking10]

@Sketcher:

Nice to hear I have a "blemish." Where in the Bible does it say that the "Assembly of God" is not the church, or that it did not become the church? I need more than an image of a curtain tearing, considering that the specter of eternal torment is in question. What explicit statements are there?

As a sidenote, I noticed that in Deuteronomy, a number of races and ethnic groups also cannot enter the Assembly of God. I'm curious if that doesn't apply as well.

 

[Sketcher]

@Sketcher:

Nice to hear I have a "blemish." Where in the Bible does it say that the "Assembly of God" is not the church, or that it did not become the church? I need more than an image of a curtain tearing, considering that the specter of eternal torment is in question. What explicit statements are there?

As a sidenote, I noticed that in Deuteronomy, a number of races and ethnic groups also cannot enter the Assembly of God. I'm curious if that doesn't apply as well.

I was simply referring to Deuteronomy 23:1-2, not saying that you have any sort of blemish. The New Testament does not make exclusions as to who may come to God through Christ (you just need to come through Christ, for there is no other way). But to answer your question, Jesus said:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." - John 6:37

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." - John 10:16

And Paul, under inspiration from the Holy Spirit, wrote:

"As the Scripture says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.' For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-13

Also:

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called 'uncircumcised' by those who call themselves 'the circumcision' (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."
- Ephesians 2:11-22

 

[disciple1938]

That is why god gives us teachers. You are not undersanding what you are reading. For instance "the congregaion" has nothing to do with heaven. It was just "a gathering of the people." God is a father to all the fatherless. I never knew my human father and I don't know if he even knows I exist to this day. Big deal; so what? God has been a wonderful father to me. In Deutoromony, Moses was trying to lead a mob of very uncivilized, cruel and wayward people through a desert under difficult circumstances. Most of the laws had to do with keeping them healthy and alive and focused on learning about spiritual things and not worshiping idols and pagan gods. The tabernacle laws and rules were mostly symbolic rituals that we only know in part all they srood for. The book of Hebrews explains some of it. A bastard could have been symbolic of a person serving a pagan god like Baal. Most of those gods were called Lords , meaning Husband. So if they were not subject to the true god as their Heavenly Father they would spiritually be bastards or spiritually children of false father gods. If you don't understand the differences in the two testaments or covenants you might be better off staying in the New testament books until you get an anointed teacher. A great portion of the bible is symbolic and written in parables. This is just a suggestion based on what information you have given here by your questions. Possibly you know molre than I do; I am not a learned man. But I do know that God doesn't hate fatherless children, nor is he keeping them out of his kingdom. I know that because I know Him and I don't have to read it is a book. Your question was a great one and I sense someday you will be a great Bible scholar and perhaps a teacher. You show a great desire for knowledge and understanding. Thanks for posting your question here.

 

[someguy14]

I read in Deuteronomy 23:2 that "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

I am absolutely appalled, especially considering that I am technically a "bastard" (I hate that word). Why does God send someone to hell if he's born outside marriage? Does your church practice this?

God is judge. Regardless or mankinds judgements, God is loving and merciful and aware of every situation, to work it to perfection. Trust in God.

 

[redking10]

I was simply referring to Deuteronomy 23:1-2, not saying that you have any sort of blemish. The New Testament does not make exclusions as to who may come to God through Christ (you just need to come through Christ, for there is no other way). But to answer your question, Jesus said:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." - John 6:37

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." - John 10:16

And Paul, under inspiration from the Holy Spirit, wrote:

"As the Scripture says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.' For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-13

Also:

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called 'uncircumcised' by those who call themselves 'the circumcision' (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."
- Ephesians 2:11-22

Those quotes are more encouraging than those in Deuteronomy. Thank you for indicating you don't consider me defective. These quotes give me a starting point. Several outstanding questions, though:

1. The quotes you just mentioned seem to overturn a great many of the laws in the Old Testament, but at in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [emphasis mine] He says you need to "do" every law and not break a single one. If you do otherwise than what a law tells you to do, you are breaking that law.
2. In the Old Testament, there seems to be this idea that people can be spiritually cursed or made spiritually defective by their origin or by who their predecessors were. Considering that these "defective" individuals had by no means necessarily done anything wrong, how exactly were they defective? I don't see any objective cause of defect. They didn't have a bacterial infection, they weren't covered in pollutants, they weren't insane, they weren't criminal, and they didn't have genetic abnormalities. They hadn't even hurt anyone. What is the nature of these "defects"? Is there any objective way to detect these defects? Sounds like superstition.
3. Even if "bastards" and those with "defects" are not barred from the church, are they still in any way considered "defective" or less than other Christians?

 

[redking10]

That is why god gives us teachers. You are not undersanding what you are reading. For instance "the congregaion" has nothing to do with heaven. It was just "a gathering of the people." God is a father to all the fatherless. I never knew my human father and I don't know if he even knows I exist to this day. Big deal; so what? God has been a wonderful father to me. In Deutoromony, Moses was trying to lead a mob of very uncivilized, cruel and wayward people through a desert under difficult circumstances. Most of the laws had to do with keeping them healthy and alive and focused on learning about spiritual things and not worshiping idols and pagan gods. The tabernacle laws and rules were mostly symbolic rituals that we only know in part all they srood for. The book of Hebrews explains some of it. A bastard could have been symbolic of a person serving a pagan god like Baal. Most of those gods were called Lords , meaning Husband. So if they were not subject to the true god as their Heavenly Father they would spiritually be bastards or spiritually children of false father gods. If you don't understand the differences in the two testaments or covenants you might be better off staying in the New testament books until you get an anointed teacher. A great portion of the bible is symbolic and written in parables. This is just a suggestion based on what information you have given here by your questions. Possibly you know molre than I do; I am not a learned man. But I do know that God doesn't hate fatherless children, nor is he keeping them out of his kingdom. I know that because I know Him and I don't have to read it is a book. Your question was a great one and I sense someday you will be a great Bible scholar and perhaps a teacher. You show a great desire for knowledge and understanding. Thanks for posting your question here.

It would be nice to have a well-versed teacher, and preferably one who knew the original Hebrew and Greek. Since Jesus probably spoke Aramaic, that would be a plus, too. However, I feel like churches should do a better job of fulfilling that role. I attended church as a child and teen, and it wasn't until I took a college honors course that covered the Bible that I discovered many of the shocking passages with which I now wrestle. The church never gave me an inkling. [And no, my college professor was not some atheistic relativist who poisoned me against the Bible. He examined the Bible with calm neutrality. The shock came entirely from me.]

 

[motherprayer]

I read in Deuteronomy 23:2 that "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

I am absolutely appalled, especially considering that I am technically a "bastard" (I hate that word). Why does God send someone to hell if he's born outside marriage? Does your church practice this?

I hate this word too. I have a daughter who is also technically a 'bastard' BUT.

Jesus died on the Cross, so that ALL who believe in Him shall not perish, but receive everlasting life. His life, death, and resurrection occured to give all of us, the "publicans" the "drunkards" and the "bastards" a free gift that cannot be earned by works, attitude, or lineage, BUT by grace, THROUGH faith IN Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy is best read in light of the Gospel, rather than without it, because without understanding how the Israelites rejected Him, and SORT OF as a result of that rejection the Good News was extended past simply the Jewish people. I say SORT OF because God sent Jesus here KNOWING they would reject Him, because He already knew their hearts were hard. So "as a result" is technically misleading because it wasn't really a result as much as it was actually a part of His plan.

He loves you! He loves you more than your earthly father ever could! He died for ALL OF US while we were still sinners, which is so beautiful because it means that He came here knowing that we would mess up and in general BE a mess, and by coming made that mess NOT EVEN MATTER!

It doesn't matter that my Hope, who is 8, did not have parents who were married. It doesn't matter that my younger daughter was conceived before me and my husband were married. Why? Because Jesus WAS God, but also the Son of God, who came so that our earthly parentage would no longer even matter!

I hope this helps. I will be praying for you! And you're not a bastard, no matter what.

 

[SkyBlade]

As people have already stated, those were old times with different rules. Anybody who believes can become God's child:

"...so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." ~John 3:14-16 (emphasis mine)


In addition, God says He wants us to repent and be saved:

"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom." ~Luke 12:32 (emphasis mine)


Hope that helped.

 

[Sketcher]

The quotes you just mentioned seem to overturn a great many of the laws in the Old Testament, but at in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [emphasis mine] He says you need to "do" every law and not break a single one. If you do otherwise than what a law tells you to do, you are breaking that law.

Aha, but Jesus was speaking to Jews and Paul was speaking to Gentiles. There are nuances of context with each. Jews believe that there are laws for everyone to follow (Laws of Noah), and they have many extra commands to follow (the Law, which includes the Laws of Noah). If you are a Gentile, then you were never bound by the Law, which was only given to Jews. The extra commands are part of a Jewish belief that since they have more laws, they have a special relationship with God (since having Torah is better than not having Torah) though many will say they are not better, just having a special purpose. In any case, Jesus was telling Jews not to be lax in keeping the Law. However, he said he also came to fulfill it. In him, the atonement for sin is fulfilled - the system of sacrifice was to be a pointer to his ultimate sacrifice. As such, that is obsolete. However much good sacrificing a goat (coupled with repentance) might have done in the years before Christ, it is of no value after Christ, and it is even an affront to God now because it indicates a rejection of Christ. Furthermore, Christ - which is Greek for Messiah - was foretold to bring the nations (Gentiles) to God. The Holy Spirit confirmed in Acts 15 that they did not have to become Jews as a prerequisite to their becoming Christians.

Let me know if there's anything here that needs clarifying.

In the Old Testament, there seems to be this idea that people can be spiritually cursed or made spiritually defective by their origin or by who their predecessors were. Considering that these "defective" individuals had by no means necessarily done anything wrong, how exactly were they defective? I don't see any objective cause of defect. They didn't have a bacterial infection, they weren't covered in pollutants, they weren't insane, they weren't criminal, and they didn't have genetic abnormalities. They hadn't even hurt anyone. What is the nature of these "defects"? Is there any objective way to detect these defects? Sounds like superstition.

Jews will have a more in-depth explanation of this than I will, but if I recall correctly, it is a matter of symbolism - the nation representing itself as obedient, not a "warts and all" approach. I don't think they even consider being born a "bastard" or with "defects" a sin on your record, but they do have a heavy collective emphasis on the Jewish people. This wouldn't be a matter of one's individual standing before God, but the community's.

Even if "bastards" and those with "defects" are not barred from the church, are they still in any way considered "defective" or less than other Christians?

No, because being born a "bastard" or with "defects" is not a sin - you didn't ask, say or do anything to be born the way you were born, or to the parents you were born to, or to their situation. Whatever their situation is would be the responsibility of one or both of them, not you.

 

[Spunkn]

congregation of the Lord is not the same thing as hell, far from it

 

[redking10]

Aha, but Jesus was speaking to Jews and Paul was speaking to Gentiles. There are nuances of context with each. Jews believe that there are laws for everyone to follow (Laws of Noah), and they have many extra commands to follow (the Law, which includes the Laws of Noah). If you are a Gentile, then you were never bound by the Law, which was only given to Jews. The extra commands are part of a Jewish belief that since they have more laws, they have a special relationship with God (since having Torah is better than not having Torah) though many will say they are not better, just having a special purpose. In any case, Jesus was telling Jews not to be lax in keeping the Law. However, he said he also came to fulfill it. In him, the atonement for sin is fulfilled - the system of sacrifice was to be a pointer to his ultimate sacrifice. As such, that is obsolete. However much good sacrificing a goat (coupled with repentance) might have done in the years before Christ, it is of no value after Christ, and it is even an affront to God now because it indicates a rejection of Christ. Furthermore, Christ - which is Greek for Messiah - was foretold to bring the nations (Gentiles) to God. The Holy Spirit confirmed in Acts 15 that they did not have to become Jews as a prerequisite to their becoming Christians.

Let me know if there's anything here that needs clarifying.

Jews will have a more in-depth explanation of this than I will, but if I recall correctly, it is a matter of symbolism - the nation representing itself as obedient, not a "warts and all" approach. I don't think they even consider being born a "bastard" or with "defects" a sin on your record, but they do have a heavy collective emphasis on the Jewish people. This wouldn't be a matter of one's individual standing before God, but the community's.

No, because being born a "bastard" or with "defects" is not a sin - you didn't ask, say or do anything to be born the way you were born, or to the parents you were born to, or to their situation. Whatever their situation is would be the responsibility of one or both of them, not you.

Well, you've given me a starting point, and I thank you for your time. I'm still troubled by many of these laws, considering they once destroyed innocent people's lives (and still do in Israel. I read the State of Israel maintains a blacklist of "mamzerim", or "bastards"). But I'll think about what you've said about the church being open to anyone who accepts Christ. Have more thinking and reading to do now.

 

[lilmissmontana]

I read in Deuteronomy 23:2 that "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

I am absolutely appalled, especially considering that I am technically a "bastard" (I hate that word). Why does God send someone to hell if he's born outside marriage? Does your church practice this?

first, i'd like to say i haven't read the other posts ... so this may have been touched on or spelled out ... sometimes i feel it's better to just let the Lord lead kme without preconceived anything ... i'm a little weak on this subject but read and studied it again to make sure what i say is true ...

the definition of bastard in the verse you used is this ... from an used root to mean alienate, a mongrel, i.e. born of Jewish father and a heathen mother ...

heathen = non-believer ... i don't know enough of the time period to speak as to why it worked that way then ... there are different guidlines for Jewish than the rest of us for one thing ...

so ... the difference between the OT and the NT is simple ... the old is the law ... the new is grace ... neither is invalid ... the Lord simply knew that the requirements of the law were such that no man could make it ... seriously ... we've all lied whether we knew or not ... so in the NT He sent Jesus to add grace ... grace = unmerited favor ... now our sins are forgiven ... under the law they were what they were ...

when Jesus came and brought that grace 'the veil was rent' ... what that means is now no one ... not one person anywhere stand between you and the Lord ... you now do not need anyone's permission to go straight to Him ...

some churches do still practice this ... what a sad and tragic thing to so many souls ... but the Church ... His people ... if they know the Truth do not ... it's so important to search out the Truth ... people are hurt over such things every day ... He excludes no one ... judgement hasn't happened yet ... no one has stood before Him to "make their case" yet ...

i so hope this helps
with much love in Christ
lilmiss

 

[aiki]

The quotes you just mentioned seem to overturn a great many of the laws in the Old Testament, but at in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [emphasis mine] He says you need to "do" every law and not break a single one. If you do otherwise than what a law tells you to do, you are breaking that law.

Not much farther along in the same chapter Christ declares,

Matthew 5:20
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

For those listening to this declaration, Christ was commanding the impossible. Who could be more righteous than the Pharisees? Were they not at the zenith of religious piety and uprightness? Imagine also the consternation of the scribes and Pharisees who heard Jesus set a standard of righteousness greater than their own! It was no easy thing to live the life of a Pharisee (which is why, in part, so many of them were hypocrites). Christ's command would have seemed impossible to them as well. And, of course, Jesus knew this. He intended to set the standard for righteousness out of reach of everybody. Why? Paul the apostle explains:

Galatians 3:19, 22-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions...
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Adherence to the law was never intended to be the permanent basis upon which the Jews (or anyone else for that matter) maintained a righteous standing before God. In fact, rather than guiding people into righteousness, the law was a source of condemnation. No one could keep the whole law perfectly. And God never expected that anyone would. As we see from the passage from Galatians above, God's plan was to justify people ultimately by faith in Christ, not by careful observance of the laws of God.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law only revealed how impossible it was for people to avoid sin. So, God had to make another way for people to stand perfectly justified before Him. And that way was made by applying the perfect righteousness of His Son, Jesus Christ, to those who, by faith, trusted in him as their Lord and Saviour.

Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Philippians 3:9
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Thus it is that the laws of separation and ceremony that governed the lives of the Israelites in the OT are abandoned for a new covenant with God that is centered on the person of Christ, and faith in him as Saviour and Lord. Righteousness comes by way of him rather than by careful adherence to the law.

It is important to distinguish between universal moral laws of God that are binding upon all people in all times and the laws given specifically to the Jews. The former have never been set aside, but the latter are. The laws of seperation and ceremony (of which your bastard law is one) are no longer in force. The law concerning "bastards" was part of the laws God gave Israel that emphasized their "called out" status, their special separation unto God. THese laws constantly reminded the Israelites that they were a separate people, distinct from the pagan nations surrounding them. Under the new covenant established through Christ, however, the Jew and Gentile distinction is dissolved:

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thus, the laws of separation are made void. All are one in Christ.

Selah.

 

[lilmissmontana]

aiki ...

yes, but no one can live without sin ... or we wouldn't need Christ ... hence the grace ... it's no longer about the action ... it's about intent ... the Lord says He judges on the intent ... not as man ... i.e. based on prior cases or this or that ... the Lord looks, weighs, and judges each soul on it's own merit ... He says no one pays for anyone else's sin anymore ... it's just you and Him face to face ... for real ... He is just and merciful and full of love ... man points fingers, accuses, makes up stupid rules, you name it ...

all this to say ... He says feed His babes ... feed His sheep ... feed His sheep ... i.e. feed my babes ... feed the masses ... and those of the third arena ... feed them, as well ...

there is a place to feed the babes ...

there is a place to feed the masses ...

and there is a place to feed whomsoever falls into the third arena ... such as the elect and whoever else ...

... and then there is a fourth arena ... the one that feeds all three levels ...

it's a very rare pastor who is equipped to do that ...

then, we have those being led into the pen to be fed ...

what would you say this arena is?

in keeping it simple and easy to understand ... the milk ... i stand by my posts ...

how reassuring to know you may or may not know if you're going to hell ... depending upon who is right

 

[lilmissmontana]

I read in Deuteronomy 23:2 that "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

I am absolutely appalled, especially considering that I am technically a "bastard" (I hate that word). Why does God send someone to hell if he's born outside marriage? Does your church practice this?

i'm going to try this again ... i'm so confused by what is being said in this thread now ... and now i see i missed some things, too ... and i'm not sure why i posted the first part, specifically ... vaguely, but not specifically ... maybe to reassure you ... when i feel led i just go with it ...

no one is going to hell ... yet ... judgement day hasn't come ... there is only one judged to eternal damntion ...

i wanted to talk about until the tenth generation ...

these verses explain better than i can ... perhaps you can take a look at them when you have time ... i like to check things out before i settle what i know ... and you should never take my word or anyone else's as absolute until you do ... it's important i tell you that ... not just for you ... but for my obligation to my Lord ...

Ezekiel 18:3
the soul that sins shall die


What mean ye, that ye use this proverb con-
cerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers
have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth
are set on edge?
As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not
have occasion any more to use this proverb
in Israel.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father,
so also the soul of the father, so also the soul of the
son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

things change in the Bible ... it's a continuing, evolving Word ... it's alive ... it doesn't stand still ...not most things ... but a certain amount as judgements are fulfilled ... new judgements take place ... or no new ones ... it just depends ... but these verses can assure you ... no longer ... a 'bastard' does not pay for the sin of the father ... or mother ...

reading my last post you can see the definition ... there was much at the time about inbreeding and all kinds of such ... i have no idea why that judgement was placed ... for me, i just want to know what i need to know ... and that's the Lord's call ... i know that it doesn't matter ... because i needed to know ... i have four children by the same father ... but i never married him ... and never intended, too ... i just had no way out back then ... wife abuse was swept away as soon as it was reported ... so when i finally got away from him this state decided we were married and had to go through a divorce ... it was ugly ... but i know the Lord judges on intent ... i never intended to marry him after i realized ... so are my four children bastards? no ... they are not heathens ... i.e. ... not non-believers ...



disclaimer ... i have no intent to offend: ...

to a non-believer ... what difference should it make ... if one believes ... even if it's just a little ... or one believes not at all ... if one is a non-believer ... then they are governed and ruled and run by a whole nether god ... a god of this world ... it's just that simple ...this part is to say ... to those who would ... don't shoot the messenger ... if one is a non-believer ... it shouldn't offend ...

may the Lord speak ...

 

[If Not For Grace]

Do not conflate the Israelite assembly with the church of today. Old Testament worship was in concentric layers - you had the people, then the priests, then the Holy Place, then the Most Holy Place where the high priest could only enter once a year. It was veiled by a thick curtain, and they would even tie a rope around the High Priest's ankle in case he had sinned such that God would strike him dead in the Most Holy Place. They wanted to be able to get him out of there without entering!

But when Jesus died, that curtain was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). This symbolized that the old order of having to be good enough, holy enough to come to God had passed away. Direct access to God was now open to everybody, through Jesus. This includes "bastards" and those born with "defects."

so illegitimate children in the OT go to hell? Was King David not thought to have been a "woods coat" and yet a man after "God's own heart"?

 

[aiki]

aiki ...

yes, but no one can live without sin ... or we wouldn't need Christ ... hence the grace ... it's no longer about the action ... it's about intent ... the Lord says He judges on the intent ... not as man ... i.e. based on prior cases or this or that ... the Lord looks, weighs, and judges each soul on it's own merit ... He says no one pays for anyone else's sin anymore ... it's just you and Him face to face ... for real ... He is just and merciful and full of love ... man points fingers, accuses, makes up stupid rules, you name it ...

Okay...Mostly, I agree with you. I'm not sure what, exactly, you're objecting to in what I wrote. Is it the matter of the universal moral law not being set aside? Do you understand what I mean by "universal moral law"? Think of the Ten Commandments. Think of prohibitions against homosexuality, or bestiality, or rape. These laws have never been rescinded by God. Murder, theft, lying, dishonoring parents - these remain sinful deeds even under the New Covenant. But these aren't just "stupid rules" made by man. They are issued to us by the Moral Law Giver, God Himself, and are binding upon all people for all time.

then, we have those being led into the pen to be fed ...

what would you say this arena is?

in keeping it simple and easy to understand ... the milk ... i stand by my posts ...

how reassuring to know you may or may not know if you're going to hell ... depending upon who is right

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Sorry.

no one is going to hell ... yet ... judgement day hasn't come ... there is only one judged to eternal damntion ...

THis isn't what the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man indicates.

Also, your constant use of ellipses makes your posts very disjointed and confusing. You might want to try employing proper grammar and punctuation to make yourself better understood. Just a thought.

Selah.

 

[lilmissmontana]

Okay...Mostly, I agree with you. I'm not sure what, exactly, you're objecting to in what I wrote. Is it the matter of the universal moral law not being set aside? Do you understand what I mean by "universal moral law"? Think of the Ten Commandments. Think of prohibitions against homosexuality, or bestiality, or rape. These laws have never been rescinded by God. Murder, theft, lying, dishonoring parents - these remain sinful deeds even under the New Covenant. But these aren't just "stupid rules" made by man. They are issued to us by the Moral Law Giver, God Himself, and are binding upon all people for all time.



I have no idea what you're talking about here. Sorry.




THis isn't what the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man indicates.

Also, your constant use of ellipses makes your posts very disjointed and confusing. You might want to try employing proper grammar and punctuation to make yourself better understood. Just a thought.

Selah.

usually that doesn't happen ... i agree it was confusing ... i'm not sure what happened there ... well, i have an idea ... but not for here ... all i was trying to say is no one is judged to hell ... not even in the OT ... judgement hasn't happened ... and what i was feeling was this is a forum for babes ... why is everyone making everything so confusing by not keeping it simple ... somehow that came out the way it did ... anyway ... thanks for not raking me over the coals ...