Who is Esau / Edom today?

NJA · Sep 10, 2016

"And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Gen. 25:11-13

Ken Behrens · Sep 10, 2016

The Jewish legends say that it is Rome. Reasonable? I think so. The early church was Hebrews, but they were lost in history when Jerusalem fell. (They are still around though, called the "Ebionite Christians") The church of Rome took over the world of Christianity for many years. Even today, the USA, which is probably the most cutting edge Christian nation on earth, is derived culturally mostly from the western world that was once the Roman Empire. Perhaps the phrase in Luke 21:24, about the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled, is relevant, since this implies that the two babies are still fighting.

NJA · Sep 11, 2016

Ken Behrens said:
The Jewish legends say that it is Rome. Reasonable? I think so. The early church was Hebrews, but they were lost in history when Jerusalem fell.

The scripture tells us what happens even if there is little historical evidence.

The apostles were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 10:5-6), spiritually lost not physically otherwise they would not know where to go, and James letter to "the 12 tribes scattered" went nowhere!
The house of Israel were taken captive by the Assyrians, though many previously escaped to Scythia, Carthage, Spain & Britain as there had long been trading links to these places. When Assyria fell the Israelites grew and multiplied and the Parthian Empire appeared.
Hence we see Parthians, Medes, Elamites and other people listed in Acts 2 including places that Peter describes as "the strangers scattered" (1 Peter 1:1).

Believing Christians in the church at Rome would have heeded Jesus warning to leave Jerusalem when the Romans were surrounding the city (there was a window of opportunity as Vespasian returned to Rome to become Emperor leaving his son Titus to destroy Jerusalem & 2 million Jews in AD70. The Romans also took Idumea (Edom), those "Jewish legends" have it the other way round!

Mark51 · Sep 11, 2016

Forgoing a detailed accounting, Edom was conquered/scattered by Nebuchadnezzar and Nabonidus and eventually absorbed by the Jews around the first century. However, after the destruction of Jerusalem they ceased to exist as a people.

Ken Behrens · Sep 11, 2016

NJA said:
The scripture tells us what happens even if there is little historical evidence.
Believing Christians in the church at Rome would have heeded Jesus warning to leave Jerusalem when the Romans were surrounding the city (there was a window of opportunity as Vespasian returned to Rome to become Emperor leaving his son Titus to destroy Jerusalem & 2 million Jews in AD70. The Romans also took Idumea (Edom), those "Jewish legends" have it the other way round!

I have actually heard that no Christians were killed in the destruction of Jerusalem, since the gift of prophecy was so strong among them, that all got out okay.

RaphaCam · Sep 11, 2016

Esau prefigures the Jewish nation (the firstborn of the heritage), while Jacob prefigures the Church (which usurps Esau's heritage for his hard heart). Rebekah wears Jacob in Esau's clothes, just like the Church "wears" the promises mades for the Israelites.

Archie the Preacher · Sep 13, 2016

I think Mark has the right of it. The descendants of Esau (Jacob's older twin) was the nation of Edom. The nation has been long destroyed and any Edomites either died or moved on and were (genetically) mixed into the group where they landed. So there are no 'Edomites' any more. (Perhaps a couple DNA markers here and there.)

Does a preacher somewhere make a metaphor and use some modern day group as a 'spiritual Esau'? Probably. In the current United States, one could easily claim one of the political parties - pick on you don't like - was 'spiritual Esau' because they stray from (or abandon) the 'true faith' of - pick some issue you like - and are therefore renegades.

I don't think there's a great teaching in the Bible about a resurgence of Esau, either physically or metaphorically.

Uber Genius · Sep 13, 2016

Edom was located south of the Dead Sea on the southeast corner of what is now Israel, southwest corner of Jordan and northeast corner of Egypt.

It is mentioned over 120 times in the OT. It appears most prominently in Obadiah 1.

In Numbers 11 Edom refuse to allow the Israel to pass through Edom on the way to the promise land. Later in they fight against Solomon. It is also mentioned in 1st Esdras and thought to have been attacked by the Macabbeans

King Herod the Great is thought to be idumean, or a remnant from Edom.

1 Maccabbeas 5:3

"b Then Judas attacked the Edomites* at Akrabattene in Idumea, because they were blockading Israel; he dealt them a heavy blow, humbled and despoiled them."

Remember the occasion of writing is Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecration of the Temple (168 BCE) and inaugurates a three-year revolt. So we are looking at some sort of Edomite presence at around 165 BCE.

Archie the Preacher · Sep 13, 2016

Uber Genius said:
Edom was located south of the Dead Sea on the southeast corner of what is now Israel, southwest corner of Jordan and northeast corner of Egypt.
~ snip ~
Remember the occasion of writing is Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecration of the Temple (168 BCE) and inaugurates a three-year revolt. So we are looking at some sort of Edomite presence at around 165 BCE.

If I recall correctly, Uber, the Babylonians knocked the dickens out of them about the same time as the conquest of the Divided Kingdom. So the "some sort of Edomite presence" would be the survivors and left overs; much like the Samaritans after the return to Jerusalem. They were done as a country by that time, or do you think otherwise?

Uber Genius · Sep 13, 2016

Archie the Preacher said:
If I recall correctly, Uber, the Babylonians knocked the dickens out of them about the same time as the conquest of the Divided Kingdom. So the "some sort of Edomite presence" would be the survivors and left overs; much like the Samaritans after the return to Jerusalem. They were done as a country by that time, or do you think otherwise?

That is my understanding as well. But like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] roaches, they keep coming back.

Isaiah and Ezekiel prophecy destruction for Edom.

Josephus tells us

"
The first century Jewish historian Josephus gives us one account of Israel's defeat of Edom:
"The Idumeans (formerly the Edomites) surrendered to Hycranus who allowed them to live as long as they agreed to circumcise their sons and to abide by Jewish customs. This they did, and from that point on they followed the practices of the Jews." Antiquities.13:254, War 1:62

There are other Greek historical sources that discuss the Nabataeans inhabiting what had once been Edom and the city of Petra. Suggesting that they were nomadic, a rich trading nation, and "neither the Assyrians of old, nor the kings of the Medes and Persians, nor yet those of the Macedonianshave been able to enslave them, and... they never brought their attempts to a successful conclusion." -Diodorus 30 B.C.E.

So it seems that sometime after the prophecies of Obadiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, Edom was driven out by Babylon (probably the same way they did to Judah in the 6th century B.C.E. And the Nabateans finished the job driving them out if Petra in the 5th or 4th century BCE.

Pamelav · Sep 15, 2016

It seems like God always leaves some survivors when He brings judgment on a country.
I always thought the survivors just simply dispersed, or the Lord dispersed them since God said Edom would cease to be forever. Which means they aren't going to regroup and start a new nation somewhere else. They'd still be Edom only under a different name.

Archie the Preacher · Sep 15, 2016

Pamelav said:
It seems like God always leaves some survivors when He brings judgment on a country.
I always thought the survivors just simply dispersed, or the Lord dispersed them since God said Edom would cease to be forever. Which means they aren't going to regroup and start a new nation somewhere else. They'd still be Edom only under a different name.

This seems to be what happened. The same process has occurred other places, to differing extents. The Philistines are another group non-existant today, for one reason or another. Archaeologists have found artifacts from their society, but except for the Bible record, they might not be know today at all.

The nation of Egypt is still on the map and is not an insignificant place. However it has nowhere near the power or prestige of the Egyptian Empire of the Pharaohs. Likewise in North America, there are still people who genetically derive from any one of the initial groups (incorrectly called 'Indians') which flourished in North America at one time. They no longer have control over the same territories and few of them live in the same conditions as of old.

No doubt, some of the North American groups have lost even their ancient tribal name.

There are probably ancient groups all around the world that have 'dissipated' we (current civilization) have never recognized. So yes; there are probably individual humans extant who have genetic links to the Edomites, but there is no government or even social club claiming to be the descendants.

RaphaCam · Sep 15, 2016

On the Philistines, I personally believe evidence that they were an Illyrian colony to be sufficient. So Gheg Albanians and Serbo-Croatians would be the nearest descendants.

Uber Genius · Sep 19, 2016

Pamelav said:
It seems like God always leaves some survivors when He brings judgment on a country.
I always thought the survivors just simply dispersed, or the Lord dispersed them since God said Edom would cease to be forever. Which means they aren't going to regroup and start a new nation somewhere else. They'd still be Edom only under a different name.

Yes. Great observation. Even in the so-called genocides he give warnings that many heed and are spared from his judgement.

Who is Esau / Edom today?

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