Who are the 2 Witnesses in Revelation?

[Jeffwhosoever]

Who do you think the 2 witnesses are in the book of Revelation? It seems to me that they have to be Elijah and Enoch, the only 2 people who have never died, because Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed to man to die once". Since Elijah and Enoch went to heaven without dying, and since angels cannot apparently die, it seems these are the only possible people. Thoughts?

 

[caecilius]

There are some who believe that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. Here is an article about it. FWIW.
The Two Witnesses of the Book Of Revelation

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Did the New Testament exist when John wrote the book of Revelation? Didn't canonization process take centuries before we had the final books now in the New Testament? For example, the Gospel of Thomas and other books were also around and were not considered the New Testament, so its a bit difficult to think John was referring to a yet uncomplete collection of books, of which John may or may not have known he was writing the final chapter that comprises the New Testament. I can see a very symbolic interpretation, which isn't preferred hermeneutics, considering other ideas for the two witnesses, but seems a bit too soon for the New Testament to be one of those. Even if John wrote Revelation in AD95, that still seems to soon to consider the Scripture to have been considered the New Testament at that point, because back then everything was written on Scrolls and I'm not sure if they had been collected as a group even in AD95.

Also, how would the New Testament die in the street and be called up to Heaven after 3 days?

 

[Guojing]

Who do you think the 2 witnesses are in the book of Revelation? It seems to me that they have to be Elijah and Enoch, the only 2 people who have never died, because Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed to man to die once". Since Elijah and Enoch went to heaven without dying, and since angels cannot apparently die, it seems these are the only possible people. Thoughts?

Moses and Elijah.

Other than the signs described in that chapter as signs both of them have done before, since the Tribulation is for the nation of Israel, it makes more sense for these 2 names, whom they are very familiar with, to appear to them as the witnesses.

As for Enoch, none of them will feel any connection with him, Israel did not even exist during his time.

 

[caecilius]

I think you make an excellent point in that we do not know and cannot know when the NT was truly to NT to blend in with the theory . OTOH, I dont believe that the Israel spoken of is the literal Israel, but spiritual Israel. Gal 3:28, 29 and Romans 2:28-29 , Romans 11:17-20 Matt 11:33-43

 

[The Narrow Way]

My favorite Commentary on WHO the TWO WITNESSES are ~ I believe it is the Bible - the OLD & NEW TESTAMENT ~

It had been Rome's policy, under a profession of reverence for the Bible, to keep it locked up in an unknown tongue, and hidden away from the people. Under her rule the witnesses prophesied, “clothed in sackcloth.” But another power—the beast from the bottomless pit—was to arise to make open, avowed war upon the Word of God. GC88 269.1
The “great city” in whose streets the witnesses are slain, and where their dead bodies lie, “is spiritually Egypt.” Of all nations presented in Bible history, Egypt most boldly denied the existence of the living God, and resisted his commands. No monarch ever ventured upon more open and high-handed rebellion against the authority of Heaven than did the king of Egypt. When the message was brought him by Moses, in the name of the Lord, Pharaoh proudly answered, “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not Jehovah, neither will I let Israel go.” [Exodus 5:2.] This is atheism; and the nation represented by Egypt would give voice to a similar denial of the claims of the living God, and would manifest a like spirit of unbelief and defiance. The “great city” is also compared, “spiritually,” to Sodom. The corruption of Sodom in breaking the law of God was especially manifested in licentiousness. And this sin was also to be a pre-eminent characteristic of the nation that should fulfill the specifications of this scripture. GC88 269.2​

According to the words of the prophet, then, a little before the year 1798 some power of Satanic origin and character would rise to make war upon the Bible. And in the land where the testimony of God's two witnesses should thus be silenced, there would be manifest the atheism of the Pharaoh, and the licentiousness of Sodom. GC88 269.3​

This prophecy has received a most exact and striking fulfillment in the history of France. During the Revolution of 1793, “the world for the first time heard an assembly of men, born and educated in civilization, and assuming the right to govern one of the finest European nations, uplift their united voice to deny the most solemn truth which man's soul receives, and renounce unanimously the belief and worship of the Deity.” “France is the only nation in the world concerning which the authentic record survives, that as a nation she lifted her hand in open rebellion against the Author of the universe. Plenty of blasphemers, plenty of infidels, there have been, and still continue to be, in England, Germany, Spain, and elsewhere; but France stands apart in the world's history as the single State which, by the decree of her legislative assembly, pronounced that there was no God, and of which the entire population of the capital, and a vast majority elsewhere, women as well as men, danced and sang with joy in accepting the announcement.” GC88 269.4​

France presented also the characteristic which especially distinguished Sodom. During the Revolution there was manifest a state of moral debasement and corruption similar to that which brought destruction upon the cities of the plain. And the historian presents together the atheism and licentiousness of France, as it is given in the prophecy: “Intimately connected with these laws affecting religion was that which reduced the union of marriage—the most sacred engagement which human beings can form, and the permanence of which leads most strongly to the consolidation of society—to a state of mere civil contract of a transitory character, which any two persons might engage in and cast loose at pleasure.... If fiends had set themselves at work to discover a mode of most effectually destroying whatever is venerable, graceful, or permanent in domestic life, and obtaining at the same time an assurance that the mischief which it was their object to create should be perpetuated from one generation to another, they could not have invented a more effectual plan than the degradation of marriage.... Sophie Arnoult, an actress famous for the witty things she said, described the republican marriage as the ‘sacrament of adultery.’” GC88 270.1​

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

HI the debate will be on wether one is Enoch or Moses for most and the idea that every dies once is mute as scripture says not all will die that many will be caught up to meet Christ in the air so Enoch may well be a type of this deliverance. Now those who hold that the new and Old Testament are the two witnesses that is a huge stretch. The context of these two witnesses is confined to a 42 month period where they are calling down fire form heaven and plaguing the earth and then they are killed with their bodies in the street and the world rejoices after their death and is sending gifts to one another and after 3 days they come back to life and ascend to heaven and the whole world sees this. This happens in the context of the beast taking charge over all the earth and the mark and image of the beast are rolled out too. This culminates in the context of the 2nd coming of Jesus as the Armageddon scenario plays out. To allegorize this entire context makes no sense as the new and Old Testament can not be killed and do not call down fire and the witness of them is certainly not listed to a 42 month period.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Hi @Brian Mcnamee, the 42 months are not 42 literal months...but remember how that a day = a year in Bible prophecy? (See Leviticus 25:8 & Genesis 29:27). So those 42 months were actually 1260 LITERAL years.

Said the angel of the Lord: “The holy city [the true church] shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth....And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.... And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.” [Revelation 11:2-11.] GC88 266.1

The periods here mentioned—“forty and two months,” and “a thousand two hundred and threescore days”—are the same, alike representing the time in which the church of Christ was to suffer oppression from Rome. The 1260 years of papal supremacy began with the establishment of the papacy in A. D. 538, and would therefore terminate in 1798. At that time a French army entered Rome, and made the pope a prisoner, and he died in exile. Though a new pope was soon afterward elected, the papal hierarchy has never since been able to wield the power which it before possessed. GC88 266.2

 

[3 Resurrections]

Who do you think the 2 witnesses are in the book of Revelation? It seems to me that they have to be Elijah and Enoch, the only 2 people who have never died, because Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed to man to die once". Since Elijah and Enoch went to heaven without dying, and since angels cannot apparently die, it seems these are the only possible people. Thoughts?

There is one statement in Revelation 11:4 that is a dead give-away as to what these two witnesses are. They are said to "stand before the God of the earth". This was a characteristic of the high priests under Mosaic law. As in Ezekiel 44:15, with the Zadok high priests commissioned by God to "stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood".

Zechariah 3:1 also presents Joshua the high priest in the post-exilic return, standing before the angel of the Lord as he was being consecrated and purified for his high priesthood office. Zechariah 4 continues a discussion of the "two olive trees" standing on the right and left side of the golden temple candlestick, which in Zechariah 4:14 are called "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." This is a duplicate of Revelation 11, which also pictures the two witnesses as being two olive trees and two candlesticks "standing before the God of the earth".

Typically, there was not only one high priest to serve on the Day of Atonement, but also a backup high priest called a "sagan" in case the high priest became ritually impure, and unable to perform his duties as high priest at the required time. This in one reason why there are two witnesses as high priests pictured in Revelation 11. That, and the necessity of having at least two witnesses to confirm a word of judgment against someone in a capital offense case.

"Mystery Babylon", the harlot Jerusalem, had committed the supreme capital offense of betraying and murdering her Messiah. Jerusalem who had this blood guilt on her hands was judged accordingly, and there were two high priest witnesses who gave their testimony against her before she was judged in the AD 66-70 era.

By name, these two former high priest individuals were Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel. Their speeches at Jerusalem condemning the rebel Zealots and the invading Idumeans are recorded for us in Josephus, just before these two witnesses were murdered and left stripped and unburied in the streets of Jerusalem in late AD 67 or early AD 68. This took place in the same hour that a great earthquake occurred at Jerusalem, the same night that an Idumean army broke into the city. These combined disasters resulted in 8,500 dead by the next morning, including the two witnesses Ananus and Joshua, for whose deaths their opponents, the rebellious Zealots, rejoiced in triumph over them.

Just as mentioned in Revelation 11:6, (the "power to shut up heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy"), Josephus records that there was quite literally a drought in Jerusalem in the days when these two former high priests were trying to maintain order in Jerusalem as governors of Jerusalem in opposition to the rebellious Zealot factions within the city. The Revelation 11:6 verse also says that these two witnesses had power to turn waters to blood, (which was a function of the high priest at the altar, with the living waters channeled through the temple being used to wash away the sacrificial blood from the people's offerings). The symbolic "sackcloth" which these two witnesses wore was reflective of Mordecai in the book of Esther being clothed in sackcloth - a sign of severe national distress, which Jerusalem and Judea was most certainly plunged into during those AD 66-70 years.

The "fire" proceeding out of the mouth of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:5 is reflective of Jeremiah 5:14. "Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them." Because the Zealots didn't heed the word of warning given by their opponents, the former high priests Ananus and Joshua, by the end of the siege the city of Jerusalem was devoured by flames.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi @Brian Mcnamee, the 42 months are not 42 literal months...but remember how that a day = a year in Bible prophecy? (See Leviticus 25:8 & Genesis 29:27). So those 42 months were actually 1260 LITERAL years.

Said the angel of the Lord: “The holy city [the true church] shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth....And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.... And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.” [Revelation 11:2-11.] GC88 266.1

The periods here mentioned—“forty and two months,” and “a thousand two hundred and threescore days”—are the same, alike representing the time in which the church of Christ was to suffer oppression from Rome. The 1260 years of papal supremacy began with the establishment of the papacy in A. D. 538, and would therefore terminate in 1798. At that time a French army entered Rome, and made the pope a prisoner, and he died in exile. Though a new pope was soon afterward elected, the papal hierarchy has never since been able to wield the power which it before possessed. GC88 266.2

HI respectfully the allegorical view is way off. The 70th week of Daniel if future would make the 42 months that the beast has dominion the last half a 7 year period and exactly 42 months. the rest of the context of these two witnesses also is tied to the 2nd coming and battle of Armageddon. Isolating a single idea is how allegories can seem to fit. The whole context of the book and the rest of the events that lead to the 2nd coming and the kingdom being established are all in harmony throughout both testaments. The kingdom comes in Zech 14 at a time when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes and slays the enemies and it is at this time the LORD is king over all the earth. Now in Rev this is the same thing the kingdom comes as Israel is under attack. But your camp will allegorize Zech 14 as well and when you take all the passages that are you have to take allegorically it is a vast swath of the passages and the literal sense makes sense and holds together in a futurist view. Current events line up with a futurist view as well. Think about the movement for the 3rd temple and consider that 2 Thes 2 has the man of sin being revealed in the temple. This is shaping up as well.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Think about the movement for the 3rd temple and consider that 2 Thes 2 has the man of sin being revealed in the temple. This is shaping up as well.

WE as believers are that "third temple" - the one not made with hands which superseded all other physical temples.

The "man of lawlessness" was a first-century Zealot leader. The word "lawless" is the same as the identification given to the two Zealot thieves crucified on either side of Jesus, who, like Barabbas, had participated in an "insurrection" against Rome. The prophecy was that Christ would be "numbered among the lawless" in His death (Isaiah 53:12). "Lawlessness" was the Zealot party which was present and growing in strength in Christ's days. The Zealot rebellion against Rome boiled over in AD 66 when the "man of lawlessness" (Menahem, son or grandson of the Zealot Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37) presented himself in Jerusalem's temple, claiming to be the "king of the Jews" - a title belonging only to Christ Jesus. Menahem "exalted himself" over every other Zealot attempting to call themselves Daniel's promised Messiah the Prince. They all failed and were brought to destruction.

No other future temple is needed to fulfill this 2 Thessalonians 2 prediction, since Paul said this man of lawlessness was already living back in his days, just waiting for the restrainer holding him back to be removed. That restrainer was the high priest Ananias ben Nebedeus (siding with Rome), whom Menahem murdered in AD 66 in order to get rid of the high priest who had kept his own advancement as the Messiah in check. All of this 2 Thessalonians 2 prophecy was fulfilled long ago.

 

[DavidPT]

because Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed to man to die once".

What kind of argument is that, based on what we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air? Now instead of having two ppl that never die, we have maybe millions that never die.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What kind of argument is that, based on what we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air? Now instead of having two ppl that never die, we have maybe millions that never die.

These two texts are not contradictory. ALL men except Enoch the lone exception are to die the one time. There is no such thing as millions that never die. ALL are appointed to die ONCE. Those who are "alive and remain" were a group of resurrected saints that had been made alive by resurrection, but who "remained" in a reserved status on earth for an extended time. These were the "just ones" who had been "made perfect" by having already received their glorified bodies back when Hebrews 12:23 was written.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

Who do you think the 2 witnesses are in the book of Revelation? It seems to me that they have to be Elijah and Enoch, the only 2 people who have never died, because Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed to man to die once". Since Elijah and Enoch went to heaven without dying, and since angels cannot apparently die, it seems these are the only possible people. Thoughts?

They could be any two human prophets, and since I don't believe in reincarnation (since it's not Biblical), I don't think they will be reincarnated or returned back from heaven. Why is it important to you they haven't died? Better yet, why is it important for you to identify the two witnesses by name, in the first place? If they wear sackcloth and breathe fire at their enemies, are killed, resurrected, and ascend to heaven from Jerusalem after lying in the street for 3 1/2 days, then you can be sure it will be in global news and you won't miss it.

I'll give you something else to think about. Even if one of the witnesses is Elijah, Jesus said John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, so you can't be sure the witness will even have the name Elijah, or John, for that matter.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Because other books have suggested one of the witnesses may be Moses but I can't see a man dying twice, and since two and only two have ever lived and not died, if there is a return (God ordained not Hindu Karma based reincarnation) it seems it would be limited to Enoch and Elijah as the only two options. Otherwise Moses would have had to die twice. I am not convinced either that it has to be these two, only that it could only be these two, if the 2 witnesses are from Biblical times. Also, I think to be reincarnated you have to die, which Enoch and Elijah did not, so if they turn out to be the two witnesses I don't think it can be considered reincarnation.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

These two texts are not contradictory. ALL men except Enoch the lone exception are to die the one time. There is no such thing as millions that never die. ALL are appointed to die ONCE. Those who are "alive and remain" were a group of resurrected saints that had been made alive by resurrection, but who "remained" in a reserved status on earth for an extended time. These were the "just ones" who had been "made perfect" by having already received their glorified bodies back when Hebrews 12:23 was written.

Its very possible that during the rapture our bodies will die but we won't experience death as normal. It will be instantaneous, "in the twinkling of an eye", and we will be more transformed into Spiritual beings. I'm not sure if our bodies will be left behind as if we had all died or even our bodies will disappear, but our Bible study group is only on Chapter 16 thus far.

 

[Guojing]

Because other books have suggested one of the witnesses may be Moses but I can't see a man dying twice, and since two and only two have ever lived and not died, if there is a return (God ordained not Hindu Karma based reincarnation) it seems it would be limited to Enoch and Elijah as the only two options. Otherwise Moses would have had to die twice. I am not convinced either that it has to be these two, only that it could only be these two, if the 2 witnesses are from Biblical times. Also, I think to be reincarnated you have to die, which Enoch and Elijah did not, so if they turn out to be the two witnesses I don't think it can be considered reincarnation.

There is a theory that Elijah did come back and live on Earth after he went to the 1st heaven, so he did die like everyone else in the end. How did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram, if Elijah had already been taken to heaven? | GotQuestions.org

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

Because other books have suggested one of the witnesses may be Moses but I can't see a man dying twice, and since two and only two have ever lived and not died, if there is a return (God ordained not Hindu Karma based reincarnation) it seems it would be limited to Enoch and Elijah as the only two options. Otherwise Moses would have had to die twice. I am not convinced either that it has to be these two, only that it could only be these two, if the 2 witnesses are from Biblical times. Also, I think to be reincarnated you have to die, which Enoch and Elijah did not, so if they turn out to be the two witnesses I don't think it can be considered reincarnation.

Chapter 11 is a future event. It's part of the 6th trumpet. The rapture is at the 7th trumpet.

"Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Co. 15:51–52)."

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Chapter 11 is a future event. It's part of the 6th trumpet. The rapture is at the 7th trumpet.

"Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Co. 15:51–52)."

Are you basing that on a mid trib rapture? We are really torn between pre and mid trib.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

Are you basing that on a mid trib rapture? We are really torn between pre and mid trib.

Post-trib. How do you define the great tribulation? Notice that most people don't care to ask that... they just assume it's the same definition as theirs.

I define it by Matthew 24:15–21. "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand—then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house. And whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Moreover, pray that when you flee, it will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again."

This is paralleled by Luke 21:20–24. "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The "times of the Gentiles" are 42 months, given by Revelation 11:1–4. "Then there was given to me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, 'Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.' These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."

Therefore I define the great tribulation by the times of the Gentiles, or these 42 months. Since the Two Witnesses and the sixth trumpet together make up the 2nd woe (Rev. 11:14), and the rapture will occur at the seventh trumpet, the great tribulation will occur between the death, resurrection, and ascension of the two witnesses and the rapture. Therefore the rapture will occur after the great tribulation.

The term pre-trib rapture always baffled me. If we are gone before the rapture, did the Bible somehow fail its fate to be read and believed by the unbelievers left behind? They would name it something else. Seems to me the Bible was predestined to be understood and believed by us, in a sense written to us, and what would the unbelievers have any use for scripture and terminology (great tribulation) that they don't believe?

I'm also basing that on the fact that there are no records of any prophets ascending to heaven since Jesus, except for Muhammad, and he denied that Jesus was the Son of God. Not to mention he was only one man. Tradition holds that Muhammad ascended to heaven before he died, then returned from heaven to earth, then died, finally. If the two witnesses ascended from Jerusalem to heaven in the past, there would be a record of it.