When in the early church did they start asking the saints to pray for them?

[ihavefoundgod951]

As title asks what is the earliest reference of christians asking the saints to intercess (pray) for them.

Do you know of writing from the early church fathers that can shed light on this.

Many thanks and God bless

 

[Tina W]

As title asks what is the earliest reference of christians asking the saints to intercess (pray) for them.

Do you know of writing from the early church fathers that can shed light on this.

Many thanks and God bless

Hi there.
Okay I'll give it a shot in explaining it. I personally don't ask for prayers from dead saints, I prefer to pray directly to God for myself, but I understand where the idea comes from. It comes from the idea that the Bible says A=B and the Bible says B=C so therefore the Bible is saying A=C even if there's no direct verse that says A=C. It comes from the idea of communion of saints in Matthew 17 where the Transfiguration happens.

The Transfiguration
Matthew 17 KJV

1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Since Elijah and Moses were dead at the time but were seen with Jesus that tells people that even saints who are dead are still members of the body of Christ the way those of us living are members of God's body, His church. Then there's the idea that we all agree upon and that's where members of God's body who are alive can pray for you. So some people put those 2 ideas together and say that saints who have died can pray for them the way that living saints can say a prayer for and intercede for us and the way that Jesus was in communion with those saints who passed away during the transfiguration. So I think it comes from that idea along with the idea of angels in heaven assisting those of us living. So the idea comes from Bible verses, but I don't know if there's an actual verse that says "ask dead saints to pray for you." Maybe someone else knows of a Bible verse that says it like that. But I never have practiced asking dead saints to pray or intercede for me, I just know where the idea stems from. Maybe that helps you. I don't know if it's wrong or not to do that, but I don't do it.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

Thank you very much for your reply it is a very interesting and enlightening read.

What I was hoping for was early writing from the church fathers on the subject to get an idea when this started, 1st 2nd 3rd century writing would be good if possible.


I mean when did the church first start saying hail Marys?



Thanks for your teaching and God bless

 

[Tina W]

Thank you very much for your reply it is a very interesting and enlightening read.

What I was hoping for was early writing from the church fathers on the subject to get an idea when this started, 1st 2nd 3rd century writing would be good if possible.


I mean when did the church first start saying hail Marys?



Thanks for your teaching and God bless

Oh okay I see what you are saying. I did find this:

Catholic Answers

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Here's some writings from church fathers:

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).



Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).



Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

And about Hail Mary, that prayer has been around for a long time:

The Hail Mary, also commonly called the Ave Maria (Latin) or Angelic Salutation, is a traditional Catholic prayer asking for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Roman Catholicism, the prayer forms the basis of the Rosary and the Angelus prayers.

Who wrote the Hail Mary prayer?

Ginny Kubitz Moyer Answers:

Actually, we owe the first half of it to the angel Gabriel and to Mary’s cousin Elizabeth. “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee,” are the words of the angel when he greets Mary at the Annunciation (Luke 1:28). During the visitation, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth welcomes her with the words, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” (Luke 1:42). The joining of the two salutations in prayer appears to have become a widespread practice in the mid-eleventh century, though there is evidence of it showing up in eastern rites as far back as the sixth century.

The second part of the “Hail Mary” is where we ask for Mary’s intercession: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” Various forms of this go back to the fourteenth century; the wording as we use it today became official in 1568.

So in answer to your question, it’s fair to say that the Hail Mary prayer evolved out of Scripture, as well as the lived reflection of the Church in the centuries that followed. Its popularity is a testament to the continuing appeal of Mary as a helper and guide. If we want a heavenly intercessor on our side, who is better than Mary, the mother who has a personal interest in seeing her son’s work continue?

And also:

THE HISTORY OF THE "HAIL MARY."
The "Hail Mary," as we now recite it, dates from the year 1515; originally it consisted only of the words of the Archangel and St. Elizabeth. Pope Gregory the Great (590-604) ordered this primitive "Hail Mary" to be said as the Offertory of the Mass of the Fourth Sunday in Advent, and there we find it as follows: "Aye Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum, lienedicta tv in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui" — " Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." In the thirteenth century, according to Durandus, it was recited after the "Our Father " in beginning the Divine Office. Pope Urban IV. in 1263 added the holy name of Jesus after the scriptural sentence, as the devotion of the faithful had introduced the name Mary after the first greeting. (" Grandcolas, L'ancien Sacramentaire dc l'Eglise," 1 vol., 1649, P a g e 419.) The addition " Holy Mary, pray for us sinners, Amen," was made in 1508, and the Franciscans were accustomed to say, " now and at the hour of our death." A few years later Pope Pius Y. showed his approbation of the prayer, as we now have it, by allowing its insertion in the Roman Breviary.

The Greek Church has employed the words of the Angel Gabriel and St. Elizabeth in her rituals from the earliest days of SS. James and Basil, and claims to have received the addition " Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners," as early as the Council of Ephesus, in the beginning of the fifth century. It is an undeniable fact that the Greeks had the " Hail Mary," almost as complete as we have it now, as early as 647. St. Severos, Patriarch of Alexandria, wrote in his formulary of the Sacrament of liaptism, in the following manner: " Peace be to thee, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed the fruit that is in thy womb, Jesus Christ. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, I say, sinners, Amen." — Grandcolas.

It was in about this form that Saint Ildefonsus, Bishop of Toledo, knew the "Hail Mary," nine hundred years ago. Still the Western Church did not accept it as a general prayer until the eighth century. From the time of the Crusades, it became the custom to say the "Hail Mary" every morning and night, at the sound of the church bells. Pope Urban 11. 1090, ordained that from the day the army of the Crusades started, the church bells should ring three times, morning, noon, and night, to remind the faithful to recite this prayer. There exists a document from Eudes dc Sully, Bishop of Paris, 1195, by which he urges his priests to see that the people know and recite the " Hail Mary." From that time forward, the sweet " Hail Mary " became the universal prayer of the Christian world. St. Bonaventure, at the General Chapter of the Franciscans, held at Pisa in 1262, ordered his religious to encourage the faithful in honoring the mystery of the Incarnation, by saying the "Hail Mary" three times at the sound of the church bells towards evening. Hence the ringing of the Angelus bell, which became a general practice in the Franciscan Order. On the 13th of October, 1318, Pope John XXII. issued a Hull at Avignon, by which he indulgenced this pious practice. But the indulgences which are now attached to this devotion were not given until the 14th of September, 1724, when Pope Benedict XIII. granted them by the Brief " Injuncta Nobis."

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

Thank you Tina this is very insightful, I have learned a lot from your above posts

I can only say thank you and God bless you for blessing me with this wisdom.

God bless you x

 

[JM]

I'm reading the Orthodox Study Bible, "LORD Almighty, God of Israel, hear the prayer of the dead of Israel, children who sinned against you; they did not listen to the voice of the LORD, their God, and their evils cling to us." Baruch 3.4

Even if Baruch is not scripture we find an early precedent of prayers for the dead.

 

[Tina W]

Thank you Tina this is very insightful, I have learned a lot from your above posts

I can only say thank you and God bless you for blessing me with this wisdom.

God bless you x

Thanks! No problem God bless you!

 

[Tina W]

I'm reading the Orthodox Study Bible, "LORD Almighty, God of Israel, hear the prayer of the dead of Israel, children who sinned against you; they did not listen to the voice of the LORD, their God, and their evils cling to us." Baruch 3.4

Even if Baruch is not scripture we find an early precedent of prayers for the dead.

Cool thanks for posting that! The book of Baruch is one of the books that is still in the Catholic Bible but was removed from the other Bibles.

 

[JM]

I would be hesitant to give weight to the testimony of doubtful, apocryphal works like Baruch. It may be used as a historical marker for a practice but doesn't prove the validity of the practice itself. The earliest record we have is the New Testament and we find no examples of living saints asking those who have fallen asleep in the Lord to pray for them.

Yours in the Lord

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

This is a good article that gives a protestant prospective

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/why_protestants_dont_pray_to_mary.htm


Blessings

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

And here is a different one

This one is about praying to saints, the above post is about praying to Mary.

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/why_protestants_dont_pray_to_saints.htm

 

[Soyeong]

As title asks what is the earliest reference of christians asking the saints to intercess (pray) for them.

Do you know of writing from the early church fathers that can shed light on this.

Many thanks and God bless

I think this is the earliest example of a saint from the early church praying for someone:

Job 42:10 - And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

This would be a later example:

1 Timothy 2:1-5 "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." We are exhorted to pray for others - including our country's leaders, our authorities at work and elsewhere, our church leaders, our co-workers, friends, and family.

 

[Tina W]

This is a good article that gives a protestant prospective

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/why_protestants_dont_pray_to_mary.htm


Blessings

And here is a different one

This one is about praying to saints, the above post is about praying to Mary.

http://www.prayerfoundation.org/why_protestants_dont_pray_to_saints.htm

Oh okay thanks for those links, I'm going to read those.

 

[Albion]

I think this is the earliest example of a saint from the early church praying for someone:

Job 42:10
1 Timothy 2:1-5

Those are about living people. The OP's reference to "saints" was a reference to those who had died and gone on to the afterlife. When did the church first start praying to them?

 

[Soyeong]

Those are about living people. The OP's reference to "saints" was a reference to those who had died and gone on to the afterlife. When did the church first start praying to them?

All believers are saints and they didn't specify anything about them being dead.

 

[Albion]

All believers are saints and they didn't specify anything about them being dead.

I'll make it a point not to help you next time, then. Meanwhile, you might be interested in how everyone else answered the question, though.

 

[Cappadocious]

So what you're really asking is, what is the earliest attestation, not when did people begin the practice, right?