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Whatsoever is not of faith is sin?

Achilles6129

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"22 The faith which you have, have [j]as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." Rom. 14:22-23 (NASB)

Discuss.
 

Frogster

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The everything not of faith is sin verse in Rom 14, has to be about relativity to fit in the context, Paul was not saying that every little thing not in faith is sin. Paul feared, it is in the text in several places. There were two groups addressed in 14, the ones who ate with a clear mind (the strong), they were fine, but the other group, the weak ones, thought they were in sin for eating certain foods, but it was a subjective sin, the objective was established by Paul in 14:14, and 14:20, all clean.

Paul was not saying that verse as a universal objective, but a subjective relative thing.



So in the end, the guy thought he was eating in sin, to him it was sin, in the subjective, but really it was not. Some may think it is sin to eat certain foods, but objectively it is not. To him it may be, but still not be to God or others.

Just like in some fundamental churches, some think women cutting their hair is sin, but we know it is not, or the jewelry issue gets overdone for women also, they think it sin to wear it but we know it is not.

Paul was saying fine, you eat, you don't, you go to church one day, he another, just don't fight about it, in the end, neither one was in sin, it did not really matter, it only did to the weak conscience ones in the church with food stuff, presumably the Jewish people.

frog.
 
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Frogster

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Dont mind the repeat, or the caps on the next post, these are old quotes, from an old debate I had, i just copied them, but both posts should capture what I mean, one day i will edit, and condense the thoughts, thanks!.:)

Don't mind the "you" words, it was said to another last year.
 
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Frogster

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There is a relativity in Rom 14, paul said it is not sin to eat the meat, as by Jesus, but it is for another, only because of his weak conscience, ONE OBSERVES ANOTHER DAY, ONE DOES NOT, ETC, ALL SHOWING THAT THE FAITH/SIN VERSE, IN YOUR CITATION, WAS A RELATIVE SUBJECTIVE "SIN" THING, ONLY IN HIS WEAK CONSICENCE, BECAUSE THE VERSE BEFORE SAYS THE SAME GUY WAS NOT IN SIN, WHEN HE ATE, AND HE WAS OK GOING BY HIS OWN PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, SO TO USE THAT VERSE, "WHATEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN", IN AN OBJECTIVE UNIVERSAL TRUTH is incorrect usage, PAUL was showing the SUBJECTIVE, and the weak conscience, HOW CAN IT BE SIN, IF JESUS SAID IT WAS NOT SIN TO EAT IN 14:14? And it was not sin to eat, or not eat, or what day one prefers, both can't be right IN ROM 14, all proving the subjective point, it was not an objective universal thing paul was saying in that verse. THAT WOULD CREAT BONDAGE TO LIVE THAT WAY, ALWAYS FEARING ONE IS NOT IN FAITH, WHEREBY HE IS NOW IN 'SIN".


In other words rom 14:1 opens about the weak guy, probably the jew, with meats and all that.

His eating was not in faith, because only in his weak personal subjective conscience, his not eating in faith, hence sin, again, only in his weak conscience, it was not actually sin, all the meat is clean 14:14 of Rom.

Someone can think something sin, but it is not, and that was what Rom 14 was about, relativity and the weak conscience, manifested around foods and days in the Romans house churches, it was not Paul teaching a hyper faith, that would mean that we are in sin, every time we are not cruising along in faith , and that is wrong to think Paul was teaching that.

They were arguing in the churches about all that stuff, paul was just saying to leave each other alone on it, and don't freak out the weak guy, Rom 15:1 talks about him again as 14:1, and 15 goes into jew and greek, proving who the two factioning parties were.

One eats only vegetables, another eats meat, one observes one day, another day for another, they can't both be in sin, because neither mattered, it was all subjective, and they can't be in sin, because those food and sabbath days are over, Paul was showing a point there, about the weak conscience, or else we must presume it sin to eat certain foods. How can the guy in the verse before not be in sin for eating, but the guy in the next verse, whom you quote be in sin?



One ok, yet one in sin, how can that be?


14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]

We now see the relative subjective point he was trying to show in 14 of Rom?

In his own mind, the guy in verse 23 thinks it is sin, but was he really sinning?
 
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Steeno7

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Our response-ability, as Christians, is faith. "In like manner as we received Christ Jesus, we are to walk in Him," by faith (Col. 2:6). We "live by faith in the Son of God" (Gal. 2:20). God never commands us to do anything, but what He provides complete sufficiency for by His grace. He is the dynamic of His own demands. Whatever behavior is not derived from the receptivity of God's activity is necessarily sinful. "Whatever is not of faith is sin", for it will inevitably express a character and activity that is not derived from God and therefore cannot be consistent with His character.
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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"22 The faith which you have, have [j]as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." Rom. 14:22-23 (NASB)

Discuss.

God does not regard the good works of people who do not believe in Christ as worth anything.
 
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F

from scratch

Guest
The everything not of faith is sin verse in Rom 14, has to be about relativity to fit in the context, Paul was not saying that every little thing not in faith is sin. Paul feared, it is in the text in several places. There were two groups addressed in 14, the ones who ate with a clear mind (the strong), they were fine, but the other group, the weak ones, thought they were in sin for eating certain foods, but it was a subjective sin, the objective was established by Paul in 14:14, and 14:20, all clean.

Paul was not saying that verse as a universal objective, but a subjective relative thing.



So in the end, the guy thought he was eating in sin, to him it was sin, in the subjective, but really it was not. Some may think it is sin to eat certain foods, but objectively it is not. To him it may be, but still not be to God or others.

Just like in some fundamental churches, some think women cutting their hair is sin, but we know it is not, or the jewelry issue gets overdone for women also, they think it sin to wear it but we know it is not.

Paul was saying fine, you eat, you don't, you go to church one day, he another, just don't fight about it, in the end, neither one was in sin, it did not really matter, it only did to the weak conscience ones in the church with food stuff, presumably the Jewish people.

frog.
What I find interesting is I can't see any difference in those who eat pork and those who eat only veggies. I see no reason not to have a couple ham sandwiches for lunch. Does some one know anyone who has gotten sick from such?
 
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F

from scratch

Guest
There is a relativity in Rom 14, paul said it is not sin to eat the meat, as by Jesus, but it is for another, only because of his weak conscience, ONE OBSERVES ANOTHER DAY, ONE DOES NOT, ETC, ALL SHOWING THAT THE FAITH/SIN VERSE, IN YOUR CITATION, WAS A RELATIVE SUBJECTIVE "SIN" THING, ONLY IN HIS WEAK CONSICENCE, BECAUSE THE VERSE BEFORE SAYS THE SAME GUY WAS NOT IN SIN, WHEN HE ATE, AND HE WAS OK GOING BY HIS OWN PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, SO TO USE THAT VERSE, "WHATEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN", IN AN OBJECTIVE UNIVERSAL TRUTH is incorrect usage, PAUL was showing the SUBJECTIVE, and the weak conscience, HOW CAN IT BE SIN, IF JESUS SAID IT WAS NOT SIN TO EAT IN 14:14? And it was not sin to eat, or not eat, or what day one prefers, both can't be right IN ROM 14, all proving the subjective point, it was not an objective universal thing paul was saying in that verse. THAT WOULD CREAT BONDAGE TO LIVE THAT WAY, ALWAYS FEARING ONE IS NOT IN FAITH, WHEREBY HE IS NOW IN 'SIN".


In other words rom 14:1 opens about the weak guy, probably the jew, with meats and all that.

His eating was not in faith, because only in his weak personal subjective conscience, his not eating in faith, hence sin, again, only in his weak conscience, it was not actually sin, all the meat is clean 14:14 of Rom.

Someone can think something sin, but it is not, and that was what Rom 14 was about, relativity and the weak conscience, manifested around foods and days in the Romans house churches, it was not Paul teaching a hyper faith, that would mean that we are in sin, every time we are not cruising along in faith , and that is wrong to think Paul was teaching that.

They were arguing in the churches about all that stuff, paul was just saying to leave each other alone on it, and don't freak out the weak guy, Rom 15:1 talks about him again as 14:1, and 15 goes into jew and greek, proving who the two factioning parties were.

One eats only vegetables, another eats meat, one observes one day, another day for another, they can't both be in sin, because neither mattered, it was all subjective, and they can't be in sin, because those food and sabbath days are over, Paul was showing a point there, about the weak conscience, or else we must presume it sin to eat certain foods. How can the guy in the verse before not be in sin for eating, but the guy in the next verse, whom you quote be in sin?



One ok, yet one in sin, how can that be?


14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[d]

We now see the relative subjective point he was trying to show in 14 of Rom?

In his own mind, the guy in verse 23 thinks it is sin, but was he really sinning?
Is violating your own conscience a sin? I think so.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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"22 The faith which you have, have [j]as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." Rom. 14:22-23 (NASB)

Discuss.

yes even interpretations of the bible that are not "of faith" .. are sin .
 
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