What qualifies as lust?

[Krillin]

I posted a question similar to this recently but wasn't very clear on what I was asking.

Is it wrong to have a high sex drive? Assuming you are married to this person, having sex with them is not a sin, right?

My understanding of lust is that it is a sinful craving of the flesh. But during sex, is it wrong to enjoy the intense, emotional embrace of your husband/wife? Or what if sex becomes playful? Is it considered lust then? Is it wrong to consider intercourse with your spouse 'fun'?

What about nudity in art? A lot of times during the renaissance, nude sculptures and paintings would actually serve to praise God in a sense. It was a way of saying "look at what God has created". But what if a man simply holds an appreciation for the female body and decides to sketch a nude woman? Is it lustful for him to simply see the elegance and grace in her body?

Lastly. I was reading Song of Solomon for the first time the other day (a beautiful read I must say). The man and woman seem to go in great depth about how attractive each other are. Also, and perhaps I am misinterpreting some things, I get a sense that this book is talking about...well...sex. Are we supposed to use this book as some sort of guideline? How is it that this isn't considered lustful of them?

I don't raise these questions to make any sort of attack on anything. I would just like to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

 

[Mcrfan343]

God created sex for procreation, intimacy, companionship, and physical pleasure. That last one should answer some of your questions. There's no problem enjoying sex with your partner since God created sex to be enjoyable.

Seeing a naked body and lusting after one are two different things. If a man draws a naked woman and has a strong sexual craving for it, that's lust. If he just drew it for the appreciate the female anatomy, I wouldn't think that would be a bad thing.

By the way, love your name.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

But during sex, is it wrong to enjoy the intense, emotional embrace of your husband/wife? Or what if sex becomes playful? Is it considered lust then? Is it wrong to consider intercourse with your spouse 'fun'?

If your married and doing this then its not sin. Your suppose to enjoy sex and embrace it when married. It only becomes sin when:

1. You want it so much that it becomes a idol. EXample on sunday morning you say "Lets make love instead of going to church!". Your christian life shouldn't be changed tot he point of you don't have a christian life because your world revolves around sex. Granted with newlyweds (like myself) sex tends to be your priority for the first year. But as long as we still don't turn it into an idol its ok. Me and my wife still do devotions, go to church, read the bible, help people...etc.

2. When you do something sexual that is a sin such as include an animal or another person. Or lets say you watch porn to get excited with your spouse then have sex.

3. Lastly it can be a sin if you FORCE your spouse into sex. Even though our bodies belong to our spouse, we also have to respect when they say no. Granted your not also to deny them sex unless you have a good reason (like a period...etc). So its a fine line in this.

What about nudity in art? A lot of times during the renaissance, nude sculptures and paintings would actually serve to praise God in a sense. It was a way of saying "look at what God has created". But what if a man simply holds an appreciation for the female body and decides to sketch a nude woman? Is it lustful for him to simply see the elegance and grace in her body?

Well it depends. Looking at the female body in a non sexual manner in terms of art is not a sin...aka not lust. Although this crosses into the territory that becomes grey for alot of people. Such as if its to see a nude person in art. What about when you are watching a movie and a woman is nude but not doing anything sexual? Should you be looking at that woman nude? Is it a in even though you are not lusting?

My answer is I am not sure since I have to question should I be watching it in general if theres nudity. Then you get into what defines "Art". If someone draws a nude sketch of a woman its art. But if someone takes a photo of a nude woman in artistic way (lets say with flowers around her or something), is that art? Its complicated.

I tend to stay away from nudity in general with the exception of actual paintings/statues (what I call art). My rule is the only nude body I want to see is my wifes.

Lastly. I was reading Song of Solomon for the first time the other day (a beautiful read I must say). The man and woman seem to go in great depth about how attractive each other are. Also, and perhaps I am misinterpreting some things, I get a sense that this book is talking about...well...sex. Are we supposed to use this book as some sort of guideline? How is it that this isn't considered lustful of them?

Song of Solomon is something I always say people who are about to marry should read. Or maybe once married. This way they can see what will happen on the honeymoon is wonderful and beautiful. No longer should they feel this weird awkwardness about sex. And yes if you research some of the wording and what it means in modern terms...its a X rated song lol. It holds back no wording really.

I had my wife read it after we married so she could see sex was not a bad thing when married. She had so many questions about what was wrong or right to do when having sex. Needless to say its opened up our intimate life 1000x fold.


-----edit-----
I should point out as a teen I wanted to become a pediatrician. So I had looked at female and male bodies all the time online to study (no not a porn excuse). So it wasn't lustful or sexual in nature. BUt sadly when it came to learning about sex I was fine until I wondered what sex looked like in action. At first I looked at animations of how it worked. But then I looked at it actually going on and it started me down a dark path of addiction to porn instead. SO its a good example of how it went from interest and wanting to learn to lusting and seuxal desire instead.

 

[Philpy1976]

I would say the difference is inside you.

You can see a topless/naked woman and think "she is very beautiful"
or
You can see a topless/naked woman and think "She is very beautiful, I wonder how her skin feels to touch, what it would be like to....." (you get the point)

Appreciation of the beauty of God's creation isn't the same as lust.

 

[Inkachu]

"Lust" - to me - is any uncontrolled OR inappropriate desire. Just because you can control it doesn't mean it's acceptable. Likewise, just because it's acceptable (to you or to popular opinion) doesn't mean it's OK to indulge without self control.

Desire for one's spouse isn't forbidden or sinful, therefore it's perfectly OK, IMHO. The marital bedroom is the one place where desire and pleasure should be enjoyed to the fullest.

I'm on the fence about nudity in art. The human form is beautiful, both male and female forms. But is God OK with us showcasing naked bodies, simply under the guise of "art"? Meh. I'm skeptical. Doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate the awe-inspiring mechanisms of the human body, but it also doesn't mean we should parade them down the street for all to see.

Song of Solomon is a VERY sexual book, enough to make someone blush lol. My personal belief is that it's meant to illustrate both the passionate love between God and His creation, and the intoxicating love of an-about-to-be-married or newly-married couple. It is not about casual romance or sex; this couple is bonded for life (I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine). The book emphasizes the strength of love (stronger than death... that's pretty intense), and says do not awaken it until "it so desires". Meaning that the attractions that come with falling in love are SO powerful, that they should never be taken lightly.

All of our fleshly appetites are "normal" but that doesn't mean we should indulge them without limitations. Ask God to tell you what He thinks about your particular situation. When in doubt, don't.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

Gal 5:16-17 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


lust, as the KJV Bible uses the word here, merely means 'to set the heart upon'; this verse tells us that the Spirit (of God) lusts - and what the Spirit lusts for is against what the flesh lusts for and vice versa. as Christians, we are to set our heart upon God; but our flesh always wants us to set our heart upon things not of God. sex in marriage is a gift from God, so this is actually a Godly lust IF what's in the heart is to bring joy to one's spouse (i.e., where the focus is not on self).


Rom 7:7 KJV What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

ungodly lust is rooted in the law of performance, and is self-centered, desiring that which belongs to another. Godly lust is rooted in the law of grace and faith, and is God-centered, desiring that which only God can give.

1Co 10:1-6 KJV Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (5) But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (6) Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Num 11:4-6 KJV And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? (5) We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: (6) But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

most of the people that Moses led out of egypt despised the manna God provided, and desired the food they wished they had in egypt - as slaves, it is unlikely that they enjoyed 'fish, cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions, garlic' since they were slaves; rather, they likely envied the food their masters ate - they lusted after evil, having rejected Good (which is rejecting God - as He alone is Good).

here's a good way to see if your desire is ungodly lust - do you find yourself praising God (in advance) for what He has already provided (that you may not have yet received) when you consider a desire, or complaining about what you don't have?

one thing about lust - it's like a stray cat. if you feed it, it will get stronger. if you have a strong ungodly desire, it's because you have fed it by meditating on it. if you exercise mental discipline by meditating on the things of God, your lust for ungodly things will diminish and your lust for the things of God will increase.

 

[Krillin]

Gal 5:16-17 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


lust, as the KJV Bible uses the word here, merely means 'to set the heart upon'; this verse tells us that the Spirit (of God) lusts - and what the Spirit lusts for is against what the flesh lusts for and vice versa. as Christians, we are to set our heart upon God; but our flesh always wants us to set our heart upon things not of God. sex in marriage is a gift from God, so this is actually a Godly lust IF what's in the heart is to bring joy to one's spouse (i.e., where the focus is not on self).


Rom 7:7 KJV What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

ungodly lust is rooted in the law of performance, and is self-centered, desiring that which belongs to another. Godly lust is rooted in the law of grace and faith, and is God-centered, desiring that which only God can give.

1Co 10:1-6 KJV Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (5) But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (6) Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Num 11:4-6 KJV And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? (5) We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: (6) But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

most of the people that Moses led out of egypt despised the manna God provided, and desired the food they wished they had in egypt - as slaves, it is unlikely that they enjoyed 'fish, cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions, garlic' since they were slaves; rather, they likely envied the food their masters ate - they lusted after evil, having rejected Good (which is rejecting God - as He alone is Good).

here's a good way to see if your desire is ungodly lust - do you find yourself praising God (in advance) for what He has already provided (that you may not have yet received) when you consider a desire, or complaining about what you don't have?

one thing about lust - it's like a stray cat. if you feed it, it will get stronger. if you have a strong ungodly desire, it's because you have fed it by meditating on it. if you exercise mental discipline by meditating on the things of God, your lust for ungodly things will diminish and your lust for the things of God will increase.

God has delivered me from great sexual immorality. Nevertheless, my sexual drive is still there. I am not married, but I am good at not letting my imagination get the best of me. I've come to view sex (within it's rightful place) as a legitimately beautiful concept - something I have a strong desire to partake in. I am very much in to the arts, so I've seen my fair share of nudity. (I suppose one just has to look at what the artwork is saying) As odd as this sounds, I often find myself praising God for having made such beautiful, complex machines that are the male and female bodies. So...not lust then?

 

[Peripatetic]

I would say the difference is inside you.

You can see a topless/naked woman and think "she is very beautiful"
or
You can see a topless/naked woman and think "She is very beautiful, I wonder how her skin feels to touch, what it would be like to....." (you get the point)

Appreciation of the beauty of God's creation isn't the same as lust.

The above quote could be a controversial statement on a Christian forum, but it shouldn't be. It underscores a serious distortion of lust as defined in today's culture, especially in the USA. Lust is in the heart and mind, not aesthetic appreciation. It almost always involves the desire to alter circumstances in some way.

For many, lust has become a legalistic checklist: avoid any sexual thoughts or erotic stimuli and lust is averted. Meanwhile, the person may be blind to deep seeded lust that comes out in other forms, like subtle manipulation. Setting up unnecessary meetings with an attractive-but-unavailable coworker, changing a routine to "accidentally" keep running into someone, a married person flirting just to see how an attractive person reacts, etc. These can point to lust because the aim is some sort of possession, even if it's just a little "extra" time or attention. This is especially wrong (and common, sadly) when power is involved, such as bosses, teachers, and coaches.

On the other hand, appreciation of beauty that doesn't involve possession can be natural and healthy. Too much repression of desire and fantasy tends to leak out in more harmful ways. As far as nudity goes, I think we need to be practical. When considering a picture or movie, one might ask, "is it beautiful?" For the overwhelming majority of pornography and erotic stuff today, the answer is "no". If I am drawn to something that's exploitative or not beautiful, the red flag should go up. But there is a place for the human body in art... it's just so drowned out by porn today that the distinction is easily missed. Being practical also extends to other areas of erotic thought. I have no problem with my wife reading sexy novels because they are just fantasy and they don't lead her to lustful thoughts. But for people who want to "possess" that fantasy by trying to find it from a real person... perhaps those romantic novels or movies aren't practical. It depends on the person.

 

[Inkachu]

If you aren't being moved to sexual thoughts by the artistic images, then it's not lusting. However, does that make it right or acceptable or OK with God? That's another question altogether. Is GOD OK with you casually viewing naked human forms? That's your next question.

 

[Peripatetic]

If you aren't being moved to sexual thoughts by the artistic images, then it's not lusting. However, does that make it right or acceptable or OK with God? That's another question altogether. Is GOD OK with you casually viewing naked human forms? That's your next question.

Quite right. Discernment is very important in these questions. Romans 14 teaches us that many of these "disputable" matters depend on our maturity, faith, and personal wiring.

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean."

Or perhaps this could be interpreted to say, "it is unclean for anyone for whom it is unclean according to the conviction of the Holy Spirit." The same can be said for drinking alcohol, for example. Unclean and sinful for some, but a normal part of life for others. The real challenge is when it becomes a blind spot. When in doubt, it's better to avoid on the borderline things, as long as we also avoid overreaction and needless vows (as Jesus warned).

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

God has delivered me from great sexual immorality. Nevertheless, my sexual drive is still there. I am not married, but I am good at not letting my imagination get the best of me. I've come to view sex (within it's rightful place) as a legitimately beautiful concept - something I have a strong desire to partake in. I am very much in to the arts, so I've seen my fair share of nudity. (I suppose one just has to look at what the artwork is saying) As odd as this sounds, I often find myself praising God for having made such beautiful, complex machines that are the male and female bodies. So...not lust then?

lust is neither good nor bad - it's what's in the heart that makes the difference. lusting for knowledge of God is good, lusting for your neighbor's spouse is bad.

1Jn 2:15-17 KJV Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Rom 14:21 KJV It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

the trick is in knowing what's in your heart - and only God can tell you that. at the same time, always avoid what might make your Brother stumble

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I posted a question similar to this recently but wasn't very clear on what I was asking.

Is it wrong to have a high sex drive? Assuming you are married to this person, having sex with them is not a sin, right?

My understanding of lust is that it is a sinful craving of the flesh. But during sex, is it wrong to enjoy the intense, emotional embrace of your husband/wife? Or what if sex becomes playful? Is it considered lust then? Is it wrong to consider intercourse with your spouse 'fun'?

What about nudity in art? A lot of times during the renaissance, nude sculptures and paintings would actually serve to praise God in a sense. It was a way of saying "look at what God has created". But what if a man simply holds an appreciation for the female body and decides to sketch a nude woman? Is it lustful for him to simply see the elegance and grace in her body?

Lastly. I was reading Song of Solomon for the first time the other day (a beautiful read I must say). The man and woman seem to go in great depth about how attractive each other are. Also, and perhaps I am misinterpreting some things, I get a sense that this book is talking about...well...sex. Are we supposed to use this book as some sort of guideline? How is it that this isn't considered lustful of them?

I don't raise these questions to make any sort of attack on anything. I would just like to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

Lust is simply a form of sexual confusion and is not condoned in scripture. God wants us to be sexually responsible with our Minds and Bodys. It is ok to have a high sex drive ...but it is also ok to deny carrying it out to the point of it violating Gods loving commands. God doesn't want his people looking upon another as nothing but a temporary sexual thrill ... our sexual nature was made to be FULLY enjoyed in the context of marriage where it can be protected, honored, valued, enjoyed in a safe environment with lifelong commitment.

Can you just turn off your sexual nature like a light switch ? No, but, you CAN CHOOSE to keep the lid on it despite living in a Society where illicit sex is encouraged at every turn .

Nudity in art is nothing short of pornography of various levels. It is the exploitation of a persons sexual parts which again, are meant to be seen by ones marriage partner and medical Doctor if need be. The excuse that a nude painting or drawing is 'art' is nothing but a twisted excuse so one can do what he/she wants to do and is is dishonorable .

Sex isn't dirty in Gods eyes...per Song of Songs description of the human body. It becomes dirty when we view it in the Worlds eyes which is all centered around quick lust fulfillment and not love. Stick with Gods ideal on sex and you wont be sorry .... go with the Worlds idealogy on the matter and youll suffer loss and condemnation plus put your very eternity in jeopardy per 1 Cor. 6:9-11 .

Lastly, its OKAY not to use your sexuality to the fullest when you are a Single . It is noble, of integrity, of love toward God via obedience....to delay using it to the fullest until such time as you can release it to your commited loving marriage partner .

 

[Krillin]

Nudity in art is nothing short of pornography of various levels. It is the exploitation of a persons sexual parts which again, are meant to be seen by ones marriage partner and medical Doctor if need be. The excuse that a nude painting or drawing is 'art' is nothing but a twisted excuse so one can do what he/she wants to do and is is dishonorable .

Are you suggesting that the paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel are pornographic?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Are you suggesting that the paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel are pornographic?

As for the Sistine Chapel, there was absolutely no need to show Adam with his genitals in plain view . And even though it was done by a beloved professed Christian, he was in error for doing so...and also for depicting a graven image of God which is a violation of a Commandment .

The Second Commandment
Violation of the Second Commandment takes two general forms; first, the worship of false gods by means of religious statues or pictures, and second, the worship of the True God by means of religious statues or pictures.

 

[BFine]

Also--Acts 17:29-31

 

[Rubiks]

I would say thinking about sex turns into lust once you start thinking of a woman as a sex object.

 

[Philpy1976]

As for the Sistine Chapel, there was absolutely no need to show Adam with his genitals in plain view . And even though it was done by a beloved professed Christian, he was in error for doing so...and also for depicting a graven image of God which is a violation of a Commandment .

The Second Commandment
Violation of the Second Commandment takes two general forms; first, the worship of false gods by means of religious statues or pictures, and second, the worship of the True God by means of religious statues or pictures.

Interesting.
I was only thinking about this earlier on.

Is every stained glass window depicting a biblical character actually in violation of God's commandments?

 

[Peripatetic]

Is every stained glass window depicting a biblical character actually in violation of God's commandments?

Sadly, according to the 16th century Protestant reformers, the answer was yes. Centuries of holy art and architecture were destroyed by riotous mobs in the "Iconoclastic Fury" of the time. And when it wasn't violent, entire churches and cathedrals were systematically stripped bare by civil authorities in the newly reformed Protestant cities and territories of Europe. The historical losses were devastating.

It is another example of a very narrow interpretation of scripture, and the consequences that may result. The commandment was given to forbid the worship of images, not to prohibit all religious art. Was it a mistake for art and religious carvings to be in Solomon's temple?

Both Catholics and Protestants have committed many wrongs in the name of religion in our history. I only hope we can learn from them and embrace diversity in our worship styles and cultural history where art (sometimes with nudity) was a sincere way to bring glory to God.

 

[Philpy1976]

Worth remembering also, had Eve not been tempted, nudity would be a social norm.

Now the body is covered up it has become it's very own version of forbidden fruit.