what is the meaning of Exodus 34:7 ?

[paul77uk]

Exodus 34:7​

and keeping justice and mercy for thousands, taking away iniquity, and unrighteousness, and sins; and he will not clear the guilty; bringing the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and to the children's children, to the third and fourth generation.

what does this mean?
​

 

[heron]

Welcome here, Paul! Gee, you start in on the toughies, don't you?

I'll tackle half of this.
Think backwards, not from the standpoint of being the sinner, but from the standpoint of someone who had a crime committed against them. Imagine your sister was kidnapped and killed. Or someone stole your identity and you were left with ten thousand dollars of their bills.

Someone has committed an offense against another person. The community needs to feel a sense of justice.

Even though people say that God is all about forgiveness, He doesn't ignore the fact that people harm each other.

Forgiveness is there for people who admit their wrong and repent (which can include paying back victims, with interest). Repentance isn't a pop-Christian topic these days... the current focus is on unconditional love. But we really can't ignore the balance of justice, or the community will go wonky.

As for generations feeling the responsibility of one person's offense... someone else can explain.

 

[heron]

Oh, you've already waited a long time. I'll start.

It doesn't make total sense to me, but here's what I see --

An inheritance will pass down from generation to generation. If a person has robbed a bank, the hidden cash passes down. If a person got rich from embezzlement, or robbing others, their money passes down to the next generation.

If the criminal never made reparations during their lifetime, the descendents reap the financial benefits. If they reap the financial benefits, they should also share the responsibility.

Not every crime is financial, though. So maybe this is targeting the heart of the offender, to say that those s/he loves will suffer as well... it's not just about them, but they have harmed their own families.

In normal 2006 life, they do. The family often pays court costs, absorbs debt, pays for rehab, is denied for credit and insurance, supports them while they struggle to get a job. Family members get flack, or at least disrespect, from those who associate the whole family with the crime. That's not "visiting the iniquity" directly from God, but natural consequences.

Um... this is as far as my reasoning has gone right now. ​

The word used for "bringing" is closer to accountability than punishment... see link
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=06485

 

[£amb]

As for generations feeling the responsibility of one person's offense... someone else can explain.

I'll take a stab at it...

I'm going the opposite direction and post the chapter that explains that we are no longer blamed for our father's sin. This doesn't mean the sin nature we inherit from Adam, but the consequences of the sin from our father or father's father, etc. (I apologize if I may not be coming across clear, sometimes it's easier to know what you want to say than it is to put it into words.)



Ezekiel 18

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
5 "Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. 6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period. 7 He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked. 8 He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man. 9 He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD. 10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things 11 (though the father has done none of them):
"He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor's wife. 12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things.

13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head. 14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: 15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife. 16 He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? 24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

 

[The Midge]

Exodus 34:7​

and keeping justice and mercy for thousands, taking away iniquity, and unrighteousness, and sins; and he will not clear the guilty; bringing the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and to the children's children, to the third and fourth generation.​

what does this mean?​

This was written with the history of Isreal in mind.

Isreal was told to go and take the promised land. So they sent spies who told tall stories abotu teh big people. Isreal basically chickened out. As a consequence they spent 40 years wandering before they could take the land they were promised. Until the generation had all died out.

As with many sins the xconsequences have an efect much longer than we may realise. Even though their descendants were not to blame they still had to fight the wars that their fore bearers failed to fight all the way down to the forth generation. That, unfortunately, is how the world works.

To bring it up to date, we could be suffering the consequences of failing to act on global warming and going to war against Iraq for that sort of time. Our children will be paying the cost for our ations.

 

[heron]

Lamb and Midge, thank you for balancing out what I said.
The Ezekiel passage is the perfect complement to Exodus 34, spelling out the details.

26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.

I wonder sometimes about the temporary nature of death -- even though this verse doesn't imply what I'm thinking. Death seems so drastic here, but most Christians don't treat death as drastic...instead, a moving on to better things.

If the person was righteous, and "saved," then death might simply be a way of stopping continual offenses, while the person (who probably repented) moves on to eternal life. If they chose not to repent, then their heart is in the wrong place and they declare their own eternal death.

This probably wasn't what the words implied... just thinking it through.

 

[Robinsegg]

Another way to look at it is genetics & role models.

There are kids of alcoholics and drug abusers who automatically have a higher potential for these same problems, even if immediately given up for adoption. So we assume there is a genetic link that is "inherited" from our parents for substance abuse.

When a child grows up seeing crime/sin as "normal", that child matures into a criminal/sinner. Many children of smokers smoke, many children of theives steal. It's the way they were brought up, and we generally model our parent's actions.

Does that make sense?

Rachel

 

[paul77uk]

thank you all for your help,
i think what's clear is our actions affect others, even if one man kills another, the one doing the killing is not harmed, but the one who is not doing the evil.

i thing the verse is a bit different, as the father is not attempting to inflict any evil on his unborn child.

but as with adam and eve, their transgressions affected the whole human race, it can be clearly seen today, in the pain of women giving birth.

as with passive smoking, say someones carelessness in food hygeine, it has consequences on others.
we are all responsible for our actions, and in this world one mans actions can cause a chain reaction of consequences to others not guilty of their sin.

but likewise through one mans righteousness.

and others can be benefited from the righteous actions of one, not themselves doing the act of righteousness, even being unrighteous, but another could do good to them, or they be benefited by a chain reaction of one mans righteous act.

is it maybe inflictions we inherit rather than a sin?
for are we not responsible for our own sinful actions, but being born with some disability could be the cause of our parents or parents parents, etc.?

and as for maybe a righteous mans child can be born without any afflictions, this child can still commit it's own sin, and their actions whether righteous or unrighteous will affect others.

for in this world, there is suffering, and at the end of the day, who's responsible who can do something about it, aren't we all responsible.
who can help one another, who can show love, live by love.

some may say how can a righteous God allow all the suffering in this world.
but who's fault is it, God has given us life, given us a free will, showed us righteousness, it's up to us to act on it.
God is our aid, but the love God shows us, the mercy, the goodness we are also to show to others.

 

[Rafael]

A child that grows up and becomes a father that abuses his children, more than likely has suffered abuse from his own father. His own children that he has abused, in like manner, are more likely to carry on that abuse with their own children, and that is three generations just in this little example. By the fourth generation will the pattern of sin be broken? God gives us the information and power to break the lineage and power of sin in our lives with His Word. Yes, we can make choices to stop the generations of sin that follow family lineage.

 

[heron]

i think what's clear is our actions affect others

I'm glad you're looking at this openly and rationally. Sometimes people panic when they see a verse like this, and automatically see God as the bully. I think it's more about cause-effect than anger-- a natural law of consequences that He allows to run a course.

a father that abuses his children,

That's such a clear and familiar example. I've heard so many extrapolations on generational sins, I'm grateful for a straighforward discussion like this, looking at basic scriptures and simple situations before the theologies start spinning!

Rachel, this mirroring definitely happens. And it fits with the verse well.

Rafael, you're always good for a straight answer.

 

[Faith In God]

I don't know if this has been brought up, but look at a certain tribe of native Americans (Navajo, is it?).

This tribe has a genetic propensity to alcoholism/alcohol addiction.

Why?

Their forefathers' alcohol habits.

If you have two parents who are non-Christian, they aren't going to raise their children to be Christians. These children will, if left to themselves, probably raise their children to be non-Christian as well.

The decisions of one affect others as well...

 

[revmalone]

Greetings
Thing written in the old testament was given to us as examples and they tell od deeper thruth that was to be revealed in the New testament days.

Here is the Scripture that tell us how to look at the old testament and how it teaches us.
Romans 15:4
4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

We can't reach back into the old testament and bring those things into our life now, see Jesus was the only one who could have even fulfilled this requirment.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

That is what he has done, the things in the old testament are shadows of greater meaning reveal to us in the New testament.

Here is a example of this, When the Children of Israel walked thru the red sea it was a shadow of baptism, this is revealed in
1Corinthians 10:1-2"1 Corinthians 10
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Now moses was a picture of Jesus Christ the Saviour to come, another example is the manna that fell from Heaven, this means that all who follow God will eat the Same Spiritual food, this is in 1Corinthians 10:v3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

There was also a rock that followed the Children of Israel around the desert, this gave them water from that Rock, the rock was pointing to Jesus, this is told in verse 4 same chapter.

1Corintians 10:4-6 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

We lok back to see how to go forward better.

The old testament is for our learning not to be applied to our lifes today because Jesus fulfilled all that was required by the Old testament.

Hope I helped you
Peace to all in Christ
Rev Malone

 

[ChavaK]

Exodus 34:7​

and keeping justice and mercy for thousands, taking away iniquity, and unrighteousness, and sins; and he will not clear the guilty; bringing the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and to the children's children, to the third and fourth generation.​

what does this mean?​

The way I understand it, is the iniquity of the fathers is visited upon further generations if they repeat the sins of the father. i.e., a son may see his father beating his
wife and feel this is an appropriate way of treating one's
spouse. He then continues the sin and brings the punishments along with it. Or the damage the father caused brings shame and punishment upon the family for many generations... how would the descendents of a Jeffry Dahlmer, a Hitler, etc be remembered and treated?

 

[heron]

Clarifying... many of us do not consider the OT outdated, since it was the same God who inspired both.

The people did need to hear that the former was a shadow of greater things, because the good news of Jesus paying our debt was a new concept ... yet those of us who live in the greater still benefit from the wisdom and foundational truths. All Christians hold to a different balance.

I'm not trying to divert the discussion.. just wanted to say that you'll find many diverse Christian thoughts here at CF.

Rev Malone, the insights were beautiful.
It was only the wording of one phrase that I'm referring to.