What is Abortion?

[truefiction1]

Elective abortion is called "murder" by members of the pro-life community, and worse still, is claimed by some to be the modern equivalent of "child sacrifice" as practiced in ancient pagan (demonic) religious cultures by some members of the Christian Church.

I've pondered this matter at great length, and have spent some time searching the web for any Christian, scholarly or Theological presentations on this question that present a case that abortion is "not child sacrifice". The only opposition to this notion seems to come from people commenting in forums whose statements and arguments seem to me to bear out a fundamental lack of Scriptural knowledge or anything resembling Spiritual knowledge.

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion, refuting the notion that it is (in the majority of cases) the communal practice of child sacrifice for the sake of worldly benefits? I think there are some who don't believe that there really is a connection/correlation between abortion and ancient pagan practice of child sacrifice. Can this belief be supported Theologically?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The era of child sacrifice was during the divided kingdom.

The eras of church history leading up to this point indicate we are actually in an age that mirrors Israel and Judah before the captivity.

So some mirror or mirrors of human sacrifice and burning humans in fire will be prevalent.

 

[PloverWing]

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion, refuting the notion that it is (in the majority of cases) the communal practice of child sacrifice for the sake of worldly benefits? I think there are some who don't believe that there really is a connection/correlation between abortion and ancient pagan practice of child sacrifice. Can this belief be supported Theologically?

I object on the grounds that this paragraph appears to be equivocating across two meanings of the word "sacrifice". One meaning is to make an offering to a deity. Another meaning is to give up something to obtain something else that is more highly valued. It is an error to see these two actions as the same.

Ancient child sacrifice killed a living child as an offering to a deity.

Abortion is the second kind of sacrifice, ending a pregnancy for the sake of various other goods in life (health, emotional well-being, quality of life, and so on).

You might argue that abortion is an unacceptable sacrifice (with this second meaning), that there is no good greater than the creation of new life, and perhaps that is a conversation we could have. But I disagree that this second meaning of sacrifice is the same as offering a child to a deity.

 

[truefiction1]

I object on the grounds that this paragraph appears to be equivocating across two meanings of the word "sacrifice". One meaning is to make an offering to a deity. Another meaning is to give up something to obtain something else that is more highly valued. It is an error to see these two actions as the same.

Ancient child sacrifice killed a living child as an offering to a deity.

Abortion is the second kind of sacrifice, ending a pregnancy for the sake of various other goods in life (health, emotional well-being, quality of life, and so on).

You might argue that abortion is an unacceptable sacrifice (with this second meaning), that there is no good greater than the creation of new life, and perhaps that is a conversation we could have. But I disagree that this second meaning of sacrifice is the same as offering a child to a deity.

I see the point of your of objection here. A deity, however, at least in the teaching of the Bible, is a demon (any one of the fallen angels who exist in a state of rebellion against the True God). If, as I believe is also taught in the Bible, sinful passion makes one a slave to the sinful passion, and by extension, is direct cause for subjugation of a person to demons, is not, therefore, the god of a person who commits rebellion against God, in reality a demon? A false deity? Does there have to be a conscious awareness, or knowledge of the existence of demons in order for a sinful act to constitute in reality an "offering" to a false deity? Cannot "Mammon" be a false god who one serves on account of the sinful passion of greed? Cannot one's "stomach" be the god of a person who serves the sinful passion of gluttony? Would one not be willfully subject to the subconscious prompting of demonic spirits because of there love of money or food?

 

[SilverBear]

Elective abortion is called "murder" by members of the pro-life community, and worse still, is claimed by some to be the modern equivalent of "child sacrifice" as practiced in ancient pagan (demonic) religious cultures by some members of the Christian Church.

I've pondered this matter at great length, and have spent some time searching the web for any Christian, scholarly or Theological presentations on this question that present a case that abortion is "not child sacrifice". The only opposition to this notion seems to come from people commenting in forums whose statements and arguments seem to me to bear out a fundamental lack of Scriptural knowledge or anything resembling Spiritual knowledge.

Are there any in here who would like to present a case for abortion, refuting the notion that it is (in the majority of cases) the communal practice of child sacrifice for the sake of worldly benefits? I think there are some who don't believe that there really is a connection/correlation between abortion and ancient pagan practice of child sacrifice. Can this belief be supported Theologically?

I think the most significant problem in trying to associate abortion with some form of human sacrifice lies in the fact that until very recently a fetus was not considered a human being or more specifically it was not considered to be so because it lacked a soul. Opinions will vary at just when it was believed that a soul was granted to a fetus. The two most common were that the soul entered the body with the first breath. and exiting the body with the last breath. This all relates to our many strange ways of blessing people when they sneeze. A stillbirth, while a sad event, was not considered a death as without the first breath the fetus was never alive. The other time considered is related and it is at the potential time when a fetus COULD breathe if born, so a fetus became a human being at about 7 months when it was possible for a fetus of that age to be born AND take a breath.

 

[truefiction1]

I think the most significant problem in trying to associate abortion with some form of human sacrifice lies in the fact that until very recently a fetus was not considered a human being or more specifically it was not considered to be so because it lacked a soul. Opinions will vary at just when it was believed that a soul was granted to a fetus. The two most common were that the soul entered the body with the first breath. and exiting the body with the last breath. This all relates to our many strange ways of blessing people when they sneeze. A stillbirth, while a sad event, was not considered a death as without the first breath the fetus was never alive. The other time considered is related and it is at the potential time when a fetus COULD breathe if born, so a fetus became a human being at about 7 months when it was possible for a fetus of that age to be born AND take a breath.

Many Christians consider a child in the womb to be a living soul because Elizabeth's child (the Forerunner John) leapt in her womb (rejoiced) upon hearing the greeting of the mother of the Lord. The unborn child breaths through his or her mother. The preborn child cannot live without what is in the air, it gets this through their mother. God knits us together in our mother's womb, and there is an "us" from that moment of conception from which God begins knitting us together. We are not a thing. We are a person: God's unique handiwork. This is how many regard the preborn child. A fetus is not considered a human being by many, sure, but if a fetus really is a human person does it really matter what people consider them to be or not to be? Aren't some babies killed after delivery if the abortion attempt failed, as done by the likes of Kermit Gosnell? Even stillborn children are considered a death by their mothers sometimes.

 

[PloverWing]

I see the point of your of objection here. A deity, however, at least in the teaching of the Bible, is a demon (any one of the fallen angels who exist in a state of rebellion against the True God). If, as I believe is also taught in the Bible, sinful passion makes one a slave to the sinful passion, and by extension, is direct cause for subjugation of a person to demons, is not, therefore, the god of a person who commits rebellion against God, in reality a demon? A false deity? Does there have to be a conscious awareness, or knowledge of the existence of demons in order for a sinful act to constitute in reality an "offering" to a false deity? Cannot "Mammon" be a false god who one serves on account of the sinful passion of greed? Cannot one's "stomach" be the god of a person who serves the sinful passion of gluttony? Would one not be willfully subject to the subconscious prompting of demonic spirits because of there love of money or food?

An interesting argument. I think it's too many steps away from genuine worship of a deity, however, for me to call it a sacrifice (in the sense of offering). I think there does have to be a conscious awareness in order for an act to be an offering to a deity.

I'm reluctant to think of sins like greed and gluttony as gods (or demons), because to me that weakens the idea of "god" or "demon" too much. As I see it, a "god" or "demon" should be a being with awareness and agency, and with an element of the numinous (to use Otto's wording). Greed is nothing so grand as that; it's just a petty human emotion that hurts other people.

You speak of the possibility of being entrapped by demons. Possibly. But even on such occasions, I wouldn't call the human's action an offering to the demon unless the human believed they were interacting with a conscious supernatural evil being.

Some sins are simply sins. Not all sins are polytheistic in nature.

 

[truefiction1]

An interesting argument. I think it's too many steps away from genuine worship of a deity, however, for me to call it a sacrifice (in the sense of offering). I think there does have to be a conscious awareness in order for an act to be an offering to a deity.

I'm reluctant to think of sins like greed and gluttony as gods (or demons), because to me that weakens the idea of "god" or "demon" too much. As I see it, a "god" or "demon" should be a being with awareness and agency, and with an element of the numinous (to use Otto's wording). Greed is nothing so grand as that; it's just a petty human emotion that hurts other people.

You speak of the possibility of being entrapped by demons. Possibly. But even on such occasions, I wouldn't call the human's action an offering to the demon unless the human believed they were interacting with a conscious supernatural evil being.

Some sins are simply sins. Not all sins are polytheistic in nature.

I can see where one might be reluctant to think of sins as connected to idols, or the means by which one directly worships an idol. One might easily draw the conclusion that since a person does not ascribe to a polytheistic religion, or any religion at all, for that matter, that such a person is not religious. I find much evidence in Scripture, however, and also in anthropological and sociological studies, that all human beings are religious by nature, without choosing it, because it is how man is made. Man is by his very nature a religious being, because we are purpose and meaning driven beings. Take the following passage of Scripture, for instance: "Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things." (Philippians 3:19) Wouldn't it be correct to say that a person described thus is finding their own purpose and meaning in the act of eating itself, so that the "god" that they worship is a false god? Their stomach god?

I won't provide all the Scriptural evidence here. However, I will pose the question: Even in the absence of any traditional idolatry (pagan religion), isn't it true that, in our times, "ideologies" sometimes take the place of the ancient mythologies, and are therefor false religions, or "idols"? I mean, to many of us who have studied historical ideologies, such as fascism and communism, it becomes crystal clear that all of the human blood shedding that took place during the various genocides were indeed "blood sacrifices" and "burnt offerings" (like in the Nazi crematoriums) of humans for the envisioned betterment of the world (that is, to bring about a sort of union of earth with that which is above: heaven.)

It seems evident that if a person's mind is "set on earthly things", then they are indeed worshipping false gods, otherwise known as demons (1 Corinthians 10:20).

 

[SilverBear]

Many Christians consider a child in the womb to be a living soul because Elizabeth's child (the Forerunner John) leapt in her womb (rejoiced) upon hearing the greeting of the mother of the Lord. The unborn child breaths through his or her mother. The preborn child cannot live without what is in the air, it gets this through their mother. God knits us together in our mother's womb, and there is an "us" from that moment of conception from which God begins knitting us together. We are not a thing. We are a person: God's unique handiwork. This is how many regard the preborn child. A fetus is not considered a human being by many, sure, but if a fetus really is a human person does it really matter what people consider them to be or not to be? Aren't some babies killed after delivery if the abortion attempt failed, as done by the likes of Kermit Gosnell? Even stillborn children are considered a death by their mothers sometimes.

if a fetus is not considered to have a soul, then it makes it difficult to try to associate abortion with human sacrifice.

 

[pescador]

Many Christians consider a child in the womb to be a living soul because Elizabeth's child (the Forerunner John) leapt in her womb (rejoiced) upon hearing the greeting of the mother of the Lord. The unborn child breaths through his or her mother. The preborn child cannot live without what is in the air, it gets this through their mother. God knits us together in our mother's womb, and there is an "us" from that moment of conception from which God begins knitting us together. We are not a thing. We are a person: God's unique handiwork. This is how many regard the preborn child. A fetus is not considered a human being by many, sure, but if a fetus really is a human person does it really matter what people consider them to be or not to be? Aren't some babies killed after delivery if the abortion attempt failed, as done by the likes of Kermit Gosnell? Even stillborn children are considered a death by their mothers sometimes.

How then can fetal anomalies be explained? When fetuses are formed in the womb, a certain percentage of them will either die in the womb or immediately at birth. Is it wrong to abort those fetuses when they have zero chance of living and in the process risk the life of the mother? Is God's knitting at fault?

 

[truefiction1]

How then can fetal anomalies be explained? When fetuses are formed in the womb, a certain percentage of them will either die in the womb or immediately at birth. Is it wrong to abort those fetuses when they have zero chance of living and in the process risk the life of the mother? Is God's knitting at fault?

I'm no expert in fetal anomalies. I've received some information on a couple of conditions from a lecture, or homily, from one anti-abortion priest, but my powers of recollection fail me with regards the nature of those health complications. But I doubt that it's God's knitting that's at fault: disease and death are the consequences of ancestral (Adam's) sin, whereas Divine providence takes care of all things in wondrous ways known only by God.

 

[truefiction1]

if a fetus is not considered to have a soul, then it makes it difficult to try to associate abortion with human sacrifice.

I think that the consensus of pretty much every person who is anti-abortion is that life begins at the moment of conception, which is the precise moment that a person is infused with the "spark" of Divinity that makes one a living soul in the image and likeness of God.

I'm trying to see abortion the way that God sees it, and unless I were to have the mind of Christ I doubt I'll be able to see it the way that God sees it. But, I do know that Christ is God, that God is Love, and that God is also the Creator of new life in His image and likeness. This tells me that the creation of new beings who have the potential to become by grace what He is by nature, is His will, whereas the murder of those new beings is the will of the one who hates God so much that he wills to destroy God's creation to get back at God. God creates us in our mother's wombs, knowing us before we were even conceived. So at this point it makes sense to me that those who are against the destruction of new life in the womb are of God, and those who are not against it are not of God, and so they participate in fulfilling the will of the evil one, and thus, new life in God's image and likeness is sacrificed to the demons through the cooperation of evil men.

 

[pescador]

When God killed all the firstborn of Egypt was He going against His own nature? Of course not. (Exodus 11:4-5)
When God allowed Herod to kill all the children two years old and younger (Matthew 2:16) was He going against His own nature? Of course not.

God chooses who lives and who dies.

 

[truefiction1]

When God killed all the firstborn of Egypt was He going against His own nature? Of course not. (Exodus 11:4-5)
When God allowed Herod to kill all the children two years old and younger (Matthew 2:16) was He going against His own nature? Of course not.

God chooses who lives and who dies.

God's nature is not to kill. Hence His commandment: "Thou shall not kill".

Death is an aspect of existence that's due to the fall. We all die, but God decides when. Sometimes evil men, inspired by the evil one, murder. "Offenses must come", Jesus Christ said, "but woe to them by whom the offenses come." Evil persons murder. God does not murder. If abortion is murder, then God commands not to do it.

 

[SilverBear]

God's nature is not to kill. Hence His commandment: "Thou shall not kill".

and what of all the times God orders people to kill?

 

[truefiction1]

and what of all the times God orders people to kill?

That's God also being the One Who decides when people will die. Those people were going to die at some time, no?

 

[SilverBear]

That's God also being the One Who decides when people will die. Those people were going to die at some time, no?

If you go with that then you are left with answering why can't it be that God is compelling women to get abortions?

 

[truefiction1]

If you go with that then you are left with answering why can't it be that God is compelling women to get abortions?

I'm pretty sure it's Satan who compels Women to commit murder, since Christ called him a "murderer from the beginning."

 

[SilverBear]

I'm pretty sure it's Satan who compels Women to commit murder, since Christ called him a "murderer from the beginning."

why is it OK for GOd to order the killing of some person or group of people then why is hehot doing it all the time for everyone?

 

[truefiction1]

why is it OK for GOd to order the killing of some person or group of people then why is hehot doing it all the time for everyone?

Those were special circumstances and war. Killing happens in war, and is still regrettable, but is not the same kind of killing as murder is. And it especially is not the same as a people killing their own sons and daughters, which is called "abominable" by the Word of God.