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Was Job self-righteous?

Setyoufree

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Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" 9 Satan replied, "Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it? 10 You have always protected him and his family and everything he owns. You bless everything he does, and you have given him enough cattle to fill the whole country. 11 But now suppose you take away everything he has - he will curse you to your face!" 12 "All right," the Lord said to Satan, "everything he has is in your power, but you must not hurt Job himself." So Satan left.

Now here's the question:

a] Was God presenting Job as Job presented himself to God,

b] or was God presenting Job as he was - i.e., blameless?

Please use the book of Job only to prove your answers. Anything outside the book of Job is out of context and will be ignored.
 

Setyoufree

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Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"

Satan replied, "Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it?

Now it is true that Satan is the accuser of the brethren, but that doesn't mean his question to God is pointless.

Keep in mind as we explore this subject that "Love (agape) ... does not boast, it is not proud...it is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:4,5) In other words to be "blameless" one must be reflecting God's agape love. Hence to be blameless one cannot,

1] boast of his righteousness

2] be proud of his righteousness

3] do good things in order to get something back (i.e., be self-seeking).
 
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Setyoufree

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Job 10:2 I will say to God: Do not condemn me, but tell me what charges you have against me. 3 Does it please you to oppress me, to spurn the work of your hands, while you smile on the schemes of the wicked? ...14 If I sinned, you would be watching me and would not let my offense go unpunished. 15 If I am guilty--woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.

Job's getting a bit irritated with God, but not much more...
 
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seeingeyes

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Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" 9 Satan replied, "Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it? 10 You have always protected him and his family and everything he owns. You bless everything he does, and you have given him enough cattle to fill the whole country. 11 But now suppose you take away everything he has - he will curse you to your face!" 12 "All right," the Lord said to Satan, "everything he has is in your power, but you must not hurt Job himself." So Satan left.

Now here's the question:

a] Was God presenting Job as Job presented himself to God,

b] or was God presenting Job as he was - i.e., blameless?

Please use the book of Job only to prove your answers. Anything outside the book of Job is out of context and will be ignored.

I'm gonna go with because of chapter 42:

"After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has."

If Job was 'self-righteous' then God would not have been angry at the people telling him to get off his high horse.
 
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Setyoufree

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Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted. 9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door, 10 then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? 16 "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless-- 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow-- 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things. 24 "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 "If I have rejoiced at my enemy's misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him-- 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life-- 31 if the men of my household have never said, 'Who has not had his fill of Job's meat?'-- 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler-- 33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside-- 35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense--let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)-- 38 "if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley." The words of Job are ended.
 
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Setyoufree

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I'm gonna go with because of chapter 42:

"After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has."

If Job was 'self-righteous' then God would not have been angry at the people telling him to get off his high horse.


Okay, good point....

My take is that Job was self-righteous....I'll continue (keeping your point in mind).
 
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seeingeyes

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Okay, good point....

My take is that Job was self-righteous....I'll continue (keeping your point in mind).

Did you just want some space to hammer it out, or did you want input? I don't want to break your train of thought here. :)
 
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Setyoufree

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Job 31:5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit-- 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless-- .... The words of Job are ended.

Job 32:1 So these three men (Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite) stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Now I agree with your premise. So maybe we can reject that these 3 men thought that Job was "righteous in his own eyes" (i.e., self-righteous) because of what you quoted from Job chapter 42.

However, there is a 4th man:

2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job because he justified himself rather than God.

3 He was also angry with the three friends (Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite), because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

Job's friends were wrong in condemning Job when they had no proof. Outwardly Job was very righteous.

The problem seems to be that Job justified himself before God instead of God justifying Job in the doing & dying of the coming Messiah.

So it appears that Job is the OT equivalent of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector (see Luke 18:9-14), but I'll need to pursue this idea a bit more using the immediate context of the book of Job.
 
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Setyoufree

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Job 32:2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite (4th man), of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job because he justified himself rather than God.

... it appears that Job is the OT equivalent of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector (see Luke 18:9-14), but I'll need to pursue this idea a bit more using the immediate context of the book of Job.

Job 35:1 Then Elihu continued, saying: 2 Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS)

Again, the same idea. Job seems to be justifying himself before God.

You see in the judgment of believers I will not attempt to stand before God and His law to justify myself. Why? I'm a sinner who is failing to fully live Christ's spotless life. So I don't want to be judged by my righteousness, but Christ's righteousness. In Him I am complete!

Job seems to be self-righteous. It seems clear.

To be continued as I find more....
 
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Setyoufree

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Keep in mind what Job said to God:

"let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless"

What is Job doing? Justifying himself before God!

Now, Job 38:
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?

Apparently Job didn't realize his self-justification (i.e., words without knowledge).

Only after God corrects Job does he say,

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

No longer does Job justify himself before God. No longer does he claim "blamelessness", now he views himself as "vile" in comparison to the righteousness of God.
 
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seeingeyes

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Job seems to be self-righteous. It seems clear.

Consider this: "In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (end of chapter 1)

"In all this, Job did not sin in what he said." (almost the end of chapter 2)

If Job was 'self-righteous', it did not show up until after his 'friends' came by and spent 30 chapters accusing him of wrong doing.
 
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Setyoufree

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Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

No longer does Job justify himself before God. No longer does he claim "blamelessness", now he views himself as "vile" in comparison to the righteousness of God.

Job 42:3 Therefore I (Job) have uttered what I did not understand.... 5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You (i.e., God). 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Notice, no longer does Job brag of his righteousness....No longer does Job justify his righteousness before God. Instead we see a humbled Job, who abhors himself for justifying himself before God.

What does Job do?

He repents....
 
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Setyoufree

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Consider this: "In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (end of chapter 1)

Okay, but Job was justifying himself before God....

If Job was 'self-righteous', it did not show up until after his 'friends' came by and spent 30 chapters accusing him of wrong doing.

His 3 friends had no right to condemn him because they could find nothing, outwardly, wrong with Job's works.

It took Elihu to point out the problem....
 
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childofdust

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Now here's the question:

a] Was God presenting Job as Job presented himself to God,

b] or was God presenting Job as he was - i.e., blameless?

I have no doubt whatsoever that Job was blameless of what befell him. The point of the entire book is to ask whether Job deserved what happened to him. Job says he doesn't deserve it. His "friends" either say he does deserve it (declare him guilty) or they mock the injustice of his suffering (by saying no one is truly righteous). Elihu takes the cake by adding the declaration that Job has to be wrong because he comes to a conclusion that puts god in a negative light. God then steps in and says to Job how can you who are so limited and insignificant, who can know nothing of what goes on in creation either at its founding or in its workings, understand me and what I do? Job agrees and declares himself incapable of holding god accountable for god's actions.

I appreciate that Job is asking the question "why is this happening to me when I don't deserve it?" because it is a fact of reality that people suffer for things that they do not deserve. And I appreciate the fact that Job is showing people who give the typical pat answers ("you are paying for what you did" or "no one is righteous and, therefore, undeserving of whatever happens to come along") to be imbeciles. And I especially appreciate how it throws the gauntlet down against anyone who, like Elihu, begins with the assumption that god must be right no matter what happens. Elihu is the perfect young, radicalized, brainwashed Muslim shouting "allahu akbar" at whatever happens regardless of the circumstances because such a person doesn't know much of anything and doesn't care to know.

But, personally, I think the answer the book of Job gives us is a cop-out ("you are incapable of holding god accountable for his actions because he is so much bigger and greater than you") because: 1. it means that the definitions we have of right and wrong are not applicable to god -- ie., we cannot say whether god is just/right/good or not. And 2. this means YHWH is capricious. And 3. I don't believe either of those are true.
 
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Setyoufree

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Tell me, was Job's righteousness the righteousness of faith, or was it the righteousness of works (self-righteous works)?

I would like to point out that Job was sincere, he was honest. But there was a problem, a problem that he did not realize; it was subconscious, he did not know.
 
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Setyoufree

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The point of the entire book is to ask whether Job deserved what happened to him. Job says he doesn't deserve it. His "friends" either say he does deserve it (declare him guilty) or they mock the injustice of his suffering (by saying no one is truly righteous).

His 3 friends accused Job of some secret sin. According to them God was punishing Job, but God doesn't not work like that....


Elihu takes the cake by adding the declaration that Job has to be wrong because he comes to a conclusion that puts god in a negative light.
No, Elihu (who is not condemned by God) points out that Job is self-righteous.
 
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