Violation of second commandment?

[McWilliams]

This week I received a beautiful calendar in the mail from a highly respected Reformed Baptist Church that also sends out a great newsletter! Right after getting the calendar in the mail I received an email from the elder of that church, apologizing for not having noticed a violation of the second commandment on most every page and stating that next year he would closely monitor the choice of the calendar. The calendar in question has copies of engravings of artist Gustave' Dore which show our Lord in various scenes throughout His life.
I guess I was somewhat surpirsed, yet pleased with his apology and have been in much thought about this since. Has it become so common to see a nativity scene and/or all other art depicting our Lord that we just overlook or forget the second commandment? Please share your thoughts on this. Does your church use such art?

Ex.20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, v5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, v6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep my commandments.

If we do whatsoever we do in word or deed to the glory of God, I am deciding what to do with my nativity scene on my page. Please share thoughts!

 

[Erinwilcox]

My church does not use such art. Even in the SS handouts for the young children I believe that they avoid using "images of Jesus." Personally, I feel uncomfortable with such thinks like the "Jesus" film (which I saw as an Arminian) and "The Passion" film (which I definintely did NOT see) because of the second commandment. Funny, I never questioned any of those things until I became a Calvinist. . .

 

[PapaLandShark]

Hmmm...The commandment is good, of course, in that it warns us of worshiping images. The operative word here is worship. In the days of Moses the chosen people had just been yanked out of a Polytheistic wordview to a Monotheistic one. Throughout the OT we see them yearning and, unfortunately, returning to thier old habits of idol worship.

Applying this to today I would say that the spirit of the matter is "Anything you place before God in your attention and devotion can be considered an idol". Love that car of yours more than God ( pay more attention to )? Idol. How about your House? Job? Money? ( Graven and obviously a big no no as it can break 1st and 2nd in one shot ).

So I would say some discernment is needed here.

Matthew 6:
19. "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20. "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21. for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22. "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23. "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
25. "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
26. "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
27. "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
28. "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
29. yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
30. "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
31. "Do not worry then, saying, `What will we eat?' or `What will we drink?' or `What will we wear for clothing?'
32. "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33. "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34. "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

I also have a problem with images of Jesus. Especially with the movies, wherein an actor tries to take on the role of Christ. I also did not have much of a problem with it when I was an Arminian, until one day my mother said something which made me think. We had watched one of the Jesus movies (I cannot recall which), and my mother commented on how He thought and felt, based on what we had just seen on the movie, and how it renewed her devotion or something like that. And I started thinking, there is something not right about this, when our worship is focused on the image of a man who would dare to play Christ in a movie. And especially after the Passion, I heard so many people saying that whenever they think about Christ, they'd think about the images they saw on that movie.

 

[edie19]

No pictures of Jesus at my church - no crosses either.

I don't have pictures of the Lord in my home, but I do have a nativity set. The creche is such an ingrained part of Christmas decorations I can't imagine not having it out each year.

Like Erin, I didn't see "The Passion of the Christ" although prior to its release I was actually quite excited about seeing it. I like Mel Gibson and followed the progress of the movie for ~18 months before it was finally released. But when it came right down to seeing it - the 2nd Commandment took over.

 

[ClementofRome]

I somehow think that this is blown way out of proportion. Papalandshark above makes a good point.....WORSHIP is at the heart of the second commandment....especially graven images of creatures that were in some way to be the representation of God. I just don't see how a calendar with artists depictions of scenes from the life of Jesus comes anywhere close to breaking this commandment. You are neither going to worship those images nor are you going to display them in your place of worship. If a picture of Jesus on a calendar causes me to pause at least once a day and remember my Lord than I would believe that God would be pleased.

 

[Imblessed]

I somehow think that this is blown way out of proportion. Papalandshark above makes a good point.....WORSHIP is at the heart of the second commandment....especially graven images of creatures that were in some way to be the representation of God. I just don't see how a calendar with artists depictions of scenes from the life of Jesus comes anywhere close to breaking this commandment. You are neither going to worship those images nor are you going to display them in your place of worship. If a picture of Jesus on a calendar causes me to pause at least once a day and remember my Lord than I would believe that God would be pleased.

Although, to be honest, I don't feel comfortable with having an image of Jesus in my house. It's more a personal thing--something to do with another's interpretation of what Jesus looked like. IMHO, there's a reason we don't know what Jesus looked like.....

However, I don't think it has anything to do with the second commandment. It's just my own conviction...

 

[HiredGoon]

Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 96. What does God require in the second commandment?

Answer: That we in no wise represent God by images, (a) nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. (b)

(a) Deut.4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Deut.4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, Deut.4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, Deut.4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: Deut.4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Isa.40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? Isa.40:19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. Isa.40:20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved. Isa.40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? Isa.40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Isa.40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. Isa.40:24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. Isa.40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Rom.1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Rom.1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. (b) 1 Sam.15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. Deut.12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Deut.12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. Deut.12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Matt.15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Question 97. Are images then not at all to be made?

Answer: God neither can, nor may be represented by any means: (a) but as to creatures; though they may be represented, yet God forbids to make, or have any resemblance of them, either in order to worship them or to serve God by them. (b)

(a) Isa.40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. (b) Exod.23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. Exod.23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. Exod.34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: Exod.34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exod.34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods. Num.33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: Deut.7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. Deut.12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Deut.16:21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee. 2 Kin.18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 2 Kin.18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?

Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dumb images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word. (b)

(a) Jer.10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. Hab.2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Hab.2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. (b) Rom.10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom.10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 2 Pet.1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim.3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[tryme]

I too have problems with movies of someone portraying our Lord and Savior.
I have never seen a Jesus movie or the Passion of the Cross.

I use to have a picture of Christ in my house but I gave it away.
My thinking was I did not need that on my wall to remind me.
And I certainly hoped my actions to visitors showed them
that God was the head of my house without that image.

On point, I agree the root of the verse had to do with worshipping idols.
I think it is a good way to share our Christian faith during this time.
It can actually be a learning tool for the young non Christians.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I also have a problem with images of Jesus. Especially with the movies, wherein an actor tries to take on the role of Christ. I also did not have much of a problem with it when I was an Arminian, until one day my mother said something which made me think. We had watched one of the Jesus movies (I cannot recall which), and my mother commented on how He thought and felt, based on what we had just seen on the movie, and how it renewed her devotion or something like that. And I started thinking, there is something not right about this, when our worship is focused on the image of a man who would dare to play Christ in a movie. And especially after the Passion, I heard so many people saying that whenever they think about Christ, they'd think about the images they saw on that movie.

YES, YES, YES!!! When the Passion movie first came out, I was almost angry that someone could actually presume to play Christ, the most sinless, perfect, holy man who was also God! Who was some man to play the God of the Universe?!? Also, it makes me absolutely sick to think that, like you said, people now think of some actor when they think of Jesus. This is so wrong! I don't know about anyone else, but the image from the Jesus film I saw so long ago is still burned into my head and I struggle not to think of that actor's face. I haven't seen that movie in at least eight years!

Although, to be honest, I don't feel comfortable with having an image of Jesus in my house. It's more a personal thing--something to do with another's interpretation of what Jesus looked like. IMHO, there's a reason we don't know what Jesus looked like.....

However, I don't think it has anything to do with the second commandment. It's just my own conviction...

No pictures of Jesus at my church - no crosses either.

I don't have pictures of the Lord in my home, but I do have a nativity set. The creche is such an ingrained part of Christmas decorations I can't imagine not having it out each year.

Like Erin, I didn't see "The Passion of the Christ" although prior to its release I was actually quite excited about seeing it. I like Mel Gibson and followed the progress of the movie for ~18 months before it was finally released. But when it came right down to seeing it - the 2nd Commandment took over.

Concerning images in the home, I completely agree. Unfortunately, my grandparents, although Calvinistic now, still have all of their "images" from their preconverted days in the RCC. This makes me somewhat uncomfortable. They have a picture of Christ on the cross in their bedroom, several lightcovers with the exposed/glorified heart of Christ, and other such stuff around their home.

 

[lmnop9876]

I don't feel comfortable with images of Christ. these are my reasons:
given that Christ is both God and man, in two distinct Natures, and one Person forever, and given that the Virgin Mary is the Theotokos (i.e. the God-bearer, i.e. the Person she bore in her womb is definitely and truly God), and that St. Thomas says to Christ (as a Man), "My Lord and my God," I don't think it's alright to have images of God manifest in the flesh.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't have a problem with pictures , images , and films that stay true to the Gospel portraying Christ.


I know the Strict Jews outdo even strict Christians and refuse even photos of themselves (images) etc ..........

My thoughts are similar to ClementofRome

I always remember God commanding the Jews to make an image of a snake !!!

and they were to look to this accursed creature not as any act of worship , but as an act of obedience and receive their healing.
Obviously we know the reason for the snake ............ "cursed is He that hangs on a tree" ..... but it was still a image that God chose and commanded to represent Christ........ so I don't get too legalistic over these things.

Having said that , looking into Orthodox beliefs (and RCC) leads me to acknowledge that the Christian needs to be on guard that no idols , worship , or power , or Grace should ever be attributed to any "religious art"

Greetings Cygnus

 

[McWilliams]

Way back, long ago I remember when I first heard that they planned to make a movie about something from the bible, cant remember which one was first. I was so horrified that man would have the audacity to make a movie about scriptural things, what an invasion of the holy! I was so appalled then, yet though I refused to see The Passion and found the dramatic license they took in adapting details to their liking I actually have seen The Ten Commandments, Jeremiah, Esther, and Abraham. When I look back now I see how easy it is to become conformed to the world.
It really pays to stay close to the Word and to examine ourselves! Its like the leaven that slowly moves throughout the dough, affecting every tiny part! Its much easier to see those changes when looking back than while we're in the process of adapting to the world's ways.
While I dont want to become legalistic, or pharasaic I do want to do whatever is pleasing to Him and brings glory to His name!
Perhaps next I may need to consider the 'cross wall' in my living room. It just started with one gift of a cross from a friend, then grew in time to cover a wall. Actually I love it, but thats not the point, is it?

 

[lmnop9876]

I don't mind pictures or movies about Biblical events or people, I just dislike pictures (and definitely people playing the part of) Christ. probably the last time I saw a 'Biblical' movie was 'Prince of Egypt' about 6 years ago, they took an awful lot of liberties with that one. probably the only other 'Biblical' movie I saw was one about Joseph, made by the same people who made Prince of Egypt, but it was much better. I don't like some of the things in the koorong catalogues about 'Samson and Delilah,' David, Moses, and things like that, which are sometimes so bad they are rated M15+ (i.e. not recommended for kids under 15), or even MA15+ (i.e. kids under 15 aren't allowed to watch it). I know the stories of david, and samson and delilah contain some pretty bad stuff, but why would they choose to focus on these things in a Biblical movie? instead of making a movie about Samson and Delilah with 'adult themes', why not make a movie about the life of Samson as a whole?

 

[pinkieposies]

I also have a problem with images of Jesus. Especially with the movies, wherein an actor tries to take on the role of Christ. I also did not have much of a problem with it when I was an Arminian, until one day my mother said something which made me think. We had watched one of the Jesus movies (I cannot recall which), and my mother commented on how He thought and felt, based on what we had just seen on the movie, and how it renewed her devotion or something like that. And I started thinking, there is something not right about this, when our worship is focused on the image of a man who would dare to play Christ in a movie. And especially after the Passion, I heard so many people saying that whenever they think about Christ, they'd think about the images they saw on that movie.

I completely agree! These are my thoughts exactly. There are no images used in my church or our reading materials or books for children. And there aren't any in my home.

To tell the truth I can hardly even stand church plays where they have someone play the role of Jesus right there in front of you.

Last night I visited a charismatic church where my neice was in a play, and the climax at the end was some guy with a beard dressed up like Jesus ascending up to this big shiny gold thrown, and over the course of about 5 minutes about 100 people slowly came out from the audience onto the stage to raise their arms up and worship, and then bow down and pray to, the "one true God". My husband could barely keep me in my seat. I was so uncomfortable I had to leave. I guess their objective was to get everyone so moved that they had to come down to the altar call after the whole thing, but the whole night there was not one single verse read from the Bible. Can they really think that's how you are going to draw people to the truth? I can't imagine what was going through their heads when they had that idea. {The whole thing was rediculously over the top; The pastor actually told everyone about how the production must have costed around $13,000... }. I've never seen such an insulting play in my life.

Erin

 

[edie19]

I wear a cross (actually 2) - for me, it serves as a reminder. I think that's a very different thing than big pictures of a European Jesus. McWilliams - I wouldn't have thought twice about the calendar you mentioned and probably would have been a little surprised to receive a letter of apology about it. I do appreciate the sender's sensitivity toward those for whom it is a major issue.

I love the movie "The Greatest Story Ever Told" - I still get teary during the scene where Lazarus is raised (with music from Handel's Messiah playing in the background). I also like "Ben Hur" but as I recall they never show the actor portraying Jesus the Christ close up - always from a distance, same with another favorite "The Robe." That's a far cry from "The Passion of the Christ" where people described it as a worship experience. In interviews Jim Caviezel spoke of people coming up to him and kneeling, asking him to lay hands on them. I read of many churches that cancelled their Sunday services in order that their congregation could go see the movie as a group. Some churches took out full page ads in newspapers promoting the movie. That's a far cry from artwork on a calendar - and it was/is a 2nd Commandment issue.

edie

 

[tryme]

Way back, long ago I remember when I first heard that they planned to make a movie about something from the bible, cant remember which one was first. I was so horrified that man would have the audacity to make a movie about scriptural things, what an invasion of the holy! I was so appalled then, yet though I refused to see The Passion and found the dramatic license they took in adapting details to their liking I actually have seen The Ten Commandments, Jeremiah, Esther, and Abraham. When I look back now I see how easy it is to become conformed to the world.
It really pays to stay close to the Word and to examine ourselves! Its like the leaven that slowly moves throughout the dough, affecting every tiny part! Its much easier to see those changes when looking back than while we're in the process of adapting to the world's ways.
While I dont want to become legalistic, or pharasaic I do want to do whatever is pleasing to Him and brings glory to His name!
Perhaps next I may need to consider the 'cross wall' in my living room. It just started with one gift of a cross from a friend, then grew in time to cover a wall. Actually I love it, but thats not the point, is it?

I think this is a great thread. A good reminder to all of us.
I think it is good to reevalute things in our life.
Sometimes we have more knowledge so things we once thought was okay are no longer okay for us.

We all want to do what is Biblical and gives God glory.
I know sometimes it is hard to get out of our comfort zone.
And sometimes we just don't want to give up something we consider tradition.

 

[lmnop9876]

I wear a cross (actually 2) - for me, it serves as a reminder. I think that's a very different thing than big pictures of a European Jesus. McWilliams - I wouldn't have thought twice about the calendar you mentioned and probably would have been a little surprised to receive a letter of apology about it. I do appreciate the sender's sensitivity toward those for whom it is a major issue.

i don't mind crosses. they're a visible reminder of 1. our calling to take up the cross and follow Christ, and 2. our calling to follow a crucified Christ

 

[JJB]

I love going to museums to see paintings of Jesus -- particularly by those considered to be "masters" such as Dore. I don't worship the paintings. The message contained in the painting is what I look at or for.

It may be something I need to spend more time and prayer studying, but at the present moment I am thankful for artists who portray Jesus who loves us enough to endure the death on a cross and then is raised triumphantly to life.

 

[edie19]

Last night I visited a charismatic church where my neice was in a play, and the climax at the end was some guy with a beard dressed up like Jesus ascending up to this big shiny gold thrown, and over the course of about 5 minutes about 100 people slowly came out from the audience onto the stage to raise their arms up and worship, and then bow down and pray to, the "one true God". My husband could barely keep me in my seat. I was so uncomfortable I had to leave.

Erin

To which I say - good for you. Maybe if more people walked out on poor theology there'd be more good theology out there.