Valley of Jehoshaphat vs. Megiddo

[That Canadian Guy]

Both these valleys are important locations in the end-times, as per the OT. Based on the research I have done, they are most certainly not the same valley, though both will be spots where battles will be fought by Christ. I am trying to reconcile some details, however, and thought to put up a thread here to get anyone's opinion.

As to the geographical locations of both...

Valley of Jehoshaphat: the valley of Berachah (blessing). The general location of this valley is said to be around En Gedi (2 Chronicles 20). Either way, this would be somewhere west of the dead sea, which is south of Jerusalem.

Valley of Megiddo: due just north of Jerusalem.

Seeing how these are two different locations where Messiah is to engage in enemies, it is important to differentiate between what scriptures speak of what, which can be a bit tricky.

It is also important do differentiate between these two battles. In the "valley of decision", the Lord is going to pursue the nations after having driven them away from Jerusalem, and enter into "judgement there", in that valley.

However, the battle in armageddon is a response of the beast and the world leaders, as a collective, with the intent of coming to fight Christ.

From what I gather, Zech.14 speaks of Christ's return, thus Zech 14 would be His engaging of the enemies of Jerusalem who have surrounded her. Yet we have this verse... "For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;"

All nations.

But then let's go to Joel 3...

“For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land.” ...

"Proclaim this among the nations: ‘Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, Let all the men of war draw near, Let them come up. Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, “I am strong.”’ Assemble and come, all you nations, And gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD. ‘Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow; For their wickedness is great.’ Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.”


So it would seem the valley of decision is God dealing with specific nations, the surrounding nations of Israel.

But in Zechariah 14, we are told God gathers all the nations to Jerusalem for battle.

Am I wrong somewhere? How shall this apparent contradiction be reconciled?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Both these valleys are important locations in the end-times, as per the OT. Based on the research I have done, they are most certainly not the same valley, though both will be spots where battles will be fought by Christ. I am trying to reconcile some details, however, and thought to put up a thread here to get anyone's opinion.

As to the geographical locations of both...

Valley of Jehoshaphat: the valley of Berachah (blessing). The general location of this valley is said to be around En Gedi (2 Chronicles 20). Either way, this would be somewhere west of the dead sea, which is south of Jerusalem.

A quick search reveals that the Kidron valley at Jerusalem has been generally regarded as the valley of Jehoshaphat for most of the past two thousand years.

Of course ... it's just a guess ... the exact location for Jehoshaphat is unknown ...

Valley of Megiddo: due just north of Jerusalem.

Unlike the Kidron (Jehoshaphat) valley which touches Jerusalem, the Megiddo Valley is in the northern part of Israel ... near the Sea of Galilee.

Seeing how these are two different locations where Messiah is to engage in enemies, it is important to differentiate between what scriptures speak of what, which can be a bit tricky.

Exactly ... extrapolating is tricky business ... not just with scriptures, but true with science as well. The location of Jehoshaphat is not explicitly given ...

It's an interesting study though. Thanks.


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[That Canadian Guy]

A quick search reveals that the Kidron valley at Jerusalem has been generally regarded as the valley of Jehoshaphat for most of the past two thousand years.

Of course ... it's just a guess ... the exact location for Jehoshaphat is unknown ...


Unlike the Kidron (Jehoshaphat) valley which touches Jerusalem, the Megiddo Valley is in the northern part of Israel ... near the Sea of Galilee.

Exactly ... extrapolating is tricky business ... not just with scriptures, but true with science as well. The location of Jehoshaphat is not explicitly given ...

It's an interesting study though. Thanks.


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Thanks for the post NightHawkeye The maps are a great help.

 

[Paul.]

Where does the Bible say that the valley of Megiddo will be the site of a battle?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Where does the Bible say that the valley of Megiddo will be the site of a battle?

Good point ... it is written only that the "kings of the earth" will be gathered to the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" at Armageddon.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
​

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​

 

[Biblewriter]

Where is this “Valley of Jehoshaphat?” Scholars are not certain. But there are several common theories. Tradition (which is seldom reliable) identifies it with the Kidron valley. But this location does not fit some of the details we shall shortly examine. Some think it is the Valley of the son of Hinnom, on the opposite side of Jerusalem, because we are twice told that this valley will no more be called by that name, but will be called the “Valley of Slaughter.” (Jeremiah 7:32 and 19:6) But a careful reading of these passages shows that they do not refer to a judgment of the gentile nations, but of Judah.

Scholars of today do not know of any valley that was ever called the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” but there is a valley that could very appropriately be called by this name. In 2 Chronicles 20, “some came and told Jehoshaphat, saying, ‘A great multitude is coming against you from beyond the sea, from Syria; and they are in Hazazon Tamar’ (which is En Gedi).” (verse 2) Jehoshaphat called all Judah to fast and pray, and the Lord answered “Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God's. Tomorrow go down against them. They will surely come up by the Ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the brook before the Wilderness of Jeruel. You will not need to fight in this battle. Position yourselves, stand still and see the salvation of the LORD, who is with you, O Judah and Jerusalem!” (verses 15-17)

Believing this promise, the people “rose early in the morning and went out into the Wilderness of Tekoa.” (verse 20) And “the LORD set ambushes against the people of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah; and they were defeated. For the people of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of Mount Seir to utterly kill and destroy them. And when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, they helped to destroy one another. So when Judah came to a place overlooking the wilderness, they looked toward the multitude; and there were their dead bodies, fallen on the earth. No one had escaped.” (verses 22-24) There was so much spoil it took three days to gather it. “And on the fourth day they assembled in the Valley of Berachah, for there they blessed the LORD; therefore the name of that place was called The Valley of Berachah until this day.” (verse 26) The name Berachah is transliterated from the Hebrew word berakah, which means blessing. (Word number 1293 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary).

As noted above, the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” would be a most appropriate name for the place where this happened. To locate this valley, we first need to locate the places named. “En Gedi,” the place where the invading army was encamped, is near the center of the western shore of the Dead Sea. The “Ascent of Ziz” is a ravine that rises from a lower wilderness called the “Wilderness of Jeruel” to an upper wilderness called the “Wilderness of Tekoa.” This upper wilderness is not the top of the mountain, but only a plateau that forms a broad valley. This valley is almost certainly where the invading army was destroyed, and is believed to be the Biblical “Valley of Berachah.” It runs generally east to west, from the cliffs above Ziz (about six miles north of En Gedi) to about nine miles south of Jerusalem. The prophetic name of the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” almost certainly refers to this valley. Actually, there are two ravines in this area that fit the Biblical descriptions, but most scholars think the northern one is the Biblical “Ascent of Ziz”.

The Hebrew word translated valley in “the Valley of Jehoshaphat” is ‘emeq (word number 6010 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) An ‘emeq is a gentle, wide valley, like the English word vale.

On the other hand, while Megiddo, or Armageddon, is called a valley in some translations of 2 Chronicles 35:22 and Zechariah 12:11. But the Hebrew word used in these places is biq'ah. (word number 1237 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) A biq’ah is a wide level valley between mountains, like the English word plain.

As a side note, Ezekiel 39:11 tells us where the armies of Gog will be buried, saying, “It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude.” The Hebrew word translated valley in “the valley of those that pass by east of the sea” is gay’. (word number 1516 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) A gay’ is a valley with steep, high walls, like the English word gorge.

From these details in the Hebrew wording of the names of these three places, we see that it is impossible that any two of them take place at the same place, and thus it is impossible that any two of these prophecies are about the same future battle. Thus we see that these prophecies refer to three different battles. No two of them could even possibly refer to the same future battle.

 

[That Canadian Guy]

Where is this “Valley of Jehoshaphat?” Scholars are not certain. But there are several common theories. Tradition (which is seldom reliable) identifies it with the Kidron valley. But this location does not fit some of the details we shall shortly examine. Some think it is the Valley of the son of Hinnom, on the opposite side of Jerusalem, because we are twice told that this valley will no more be called by that name, but will be called the “Valley of Slaughter.” (Jeremiah 7:32 and 19:6) But a careful reading of these passages shows that they do not refer to a judgment of the gentile nations, but of Judah.

Scholars of today do not know of any valley that was ever called the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” but there is a valley that could very appropriately be called by this name. In 2 Chronicles 20, “some came and told Jehoshaphat, saying, ‘A great multitude is coming against you from beyond the sea, from Syria; and they are in Hazazon Tamar’ (which is En Gedi).” (verse 2) Jehoshaphat called all Judah to fast and pray, and the Lord answered “Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God's. Tomorrow go down against them. They will surely come up by the Ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the brook before the Wilderness of Jeruel. You will not need to fight in this battle. Position yourselves, stand still and see the salvation of the LORD, who is with you, O Judah and Jerusalem!” (verses 15-17)

Believing this promise, the people “rose early in the morning and went out into the Wilderness of Tekoa.” (verse 20) And “the LORD set ambushes against the people of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah; and they were defeated. For the people of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of Mount Seir to utterly kill and destroy them. And when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, they helped to destroy one another. So when Judah came to a place overlooking the wilderness, they looked toward the multitude; and there were their dead bodies, fallen on the earth. No one had escaped.” (verses 22-24) There was so much spoil it took three days to gather it. “And on the fourth day they assembled in the Valley of Berachah, for there they blessed the LORD; therefore the name of that place was called The Valley of Berachah until this day.” (verse 26) The name Berachah is transliterated from the Hebrew word berakah, which means blessing. (Word number 1293 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary).

As noted above, the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” would be a most appropriate name for the place where this happened. To locate this valley, we first need to locate the places named. “En Gedi,” the place where the invading army was encamped, is near the center of the western shore of the Dead Sea. The “Ascent of Ziz” is a ravine that rises from a lower wilderness called the “Wilderness of Jeruel” to an upper wilderness called the “Wilderness of Tekoa.” This upper wilderness is not the top of the mountain, but only a plateau that forms a broad valley. This valley is almost certainly where the invading army was destroyed, and is believed to be the Biblical “Valley of Berachah.” It runs generally east to west, from the cliffs above Ziz (about six miles north of En Gedi) to about nine miles south of Jerusalem. The prophetic name of the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” almost certainly refers to this valley. Actually, there are two ravines in this area that fit the Biblical descriptions, but most scholars think the northern one is the Biblical “Ascent of Ziz”.

The Hebrew word translated valley in “the Valley of Jehoshaphat” is ‘emeq (word number 6010 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) An ‘emeq is a gentle, wide valley, like the English word vale.

On the other hand, while Megiddo, or Armageddon, is called a valley in some translations of 2 Chronicles 35:22 and Zechariah 12:11. But the Hebrew word used in these places is biq'ah. (word number 1237 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) A biq’ah is a wide level valley between mountains, like the English word plain.

As a side note, Ezekiel 39:11 tells us where the armies of Gog will be buried, saying, “It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude.” The Hebrew word translated valley in “the valley of those that pass by east of the sea” is gay’. (word number 1516 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) A gay’ is a valley with steep, high walls, like the English word gorge.

From these details in the Hebrew wording of the names of these three places, we see that it is impossible that any two of them take place at the same place, and thus it is impossible that any two of these prophecies are about the same future battle. Thus we see that these prophecies refer to three different battles. No two of them could even possibly refer to the same future battle.

Is it the battle of Gog that will follow the millenium?

 

[Biblewriter]

deleted by writer

 

[Biblewriter]

Is it the battle of Gog that will follow the millenium?

But we read in Revelation 20:7-10, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

This passage clearly states that Gog and Magog will attack after the millennium.

But we need to compare this with Ezekiel 38:18-23, where we read, "'And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,' says the Lord GOD, 'that My fury will show in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: "Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,"' says the Lord GOD. "Every man’s sword will be against his brother. And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.'"

When these two passages are compared we see that the manner in which Gog and Magog will be destroyed is different in these two passages.

This difference becomes even more marked when we consider what takes place after the battles in these two passages. In Ezekiel 39:25-29 we read, “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name—after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”

But in Revelation 21:1 we read, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea."

So even the results of these two battles are different.In Ezekiel 38-29, the defeat of Gog and Magog leads to all Israel being regathered and settled in their land, and the knowledge among the gentiles that the Lord is the God of Israel. But in Revelation 20-21, the defeat of Gog and Magog leads to the destruction of the earth itself, followed by its being re-settled from heaven itself.

So there is no way that these two passages could even possibly be speaking of the same battle. Ezekiel 38-39 takes place before the millennium, and Revelation 20:7-10 takes place after it.

 

[Biblewriter]

Is it the battle of Gog that will follow the millenium?

(For some reason the forum would not accept part 1 until after part 2. Sorry.)

To learn when the great battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 will take place, we first need to notice Ezekiel 38:8, where the LORD tells Gog, “After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel.” Again, verse 16 plainly states that “It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.” This is therefore unquestionably a latter day event. But the timing of this event is spelled out much more precisely that this.
In Ezekiel 39:22, the Lord says, “the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day forward” But in John 5:43 Jesus told the Jews (see verses 5:18‑19); “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.” This plainly shows that the Jews will receive the Antichrist, so at that time they will not know that the Lord is “their God.” Thus we see that Gog’s destruction cannot take place before the time of the Antichrist. But when Gog is destroyed, “the house of Israel shall know that” He is “the LORD their God from that day forward.” During the millennium “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Jeremiah 31:34) So Gog will be destroyed before the millennium. From these two details we see that we really do not need anything more than this one verse to understand that Gog’s destruction takes place after the time of the Antichrist and before the millennium. But there are many other details in this prophecy to show us when it takes place.
In Ezekiel 39:7, after telling Gog he will be destroyed, the Lord says “So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore.” But Daniel 9:27 tells us that “in the middle of” Daniel’s seventieth week, the Roman prince “shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate.” There can be no reasonable doubt that this is the time when “the man of sin,” “the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped” “sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (I Thessalonians 2:3‑4) Aside from their blasphemy against and crucifixion of Jesus, This will clearly be the worst profaning of the Lord’s name ever done by His rebellious people. But after Gog is destroyed, the Lord “will not let” His people Israel “profane” His holy name “anymore.” This again shows us that Gog’s destruction cannot take place before the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, the time of the Antichrist.
We just looked at the first part of Ezekiel 39:7. The rest of that verse is “Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.” But according to I Thessalonians 2:9‑12, “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” During the time of the Antichrist “God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.” But beginning with the destruction of Gog, (notice the word “then”) “Then the nations shall know.” that Israel’s God is the Lord. This has to be after the time they are under a divinely sent “strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.” This also shows that Gog’s destruction cannot take place before the time of the Antichrist.​

Again, in Ezekiel 39:29 the Lord says that after this great deliverance He “will not hide” His “face from them anymore.” But during the great tribulation “they will cry to the Lord, But He will not hear them; He will even hide His face from them at that time, Because they have been evil in their deeds.” (Micah 3:4) This once again shows that the deliverance from Gog will take place after the great tribulation.

There are also less obvious reasons for the conclusion that Ezekiel 38 and 39 take place after Daniel’s seventieth week. The first of these is that throughout this prophecy the land and the people are called Israel, not Judah. In prophecies about suffering in the land Daniel’s seventieth week, the word Israel is never used. This is because only Judah will be in the land during that seventieth week. All Israel will not be in the land until Messiah comes.
We know this for the following reasons:​

In Ezekiel 36:10, the Lord tells the “mountains of Israel” (verse 8) that He “will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it.” Again, in Micah 2:12, the Lord says “I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep of the fold.” It is clear that this has not yet happened, for there are still Jews everywhere in the world. But when will it happen?

We see this in Ezekiel 20:33‑38, where we read: “‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,’ says the Lord GOD.
“‘I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.’”

When the Lord brings Israel “out from the peoples” and gathers them “out of the countries” where they “are scattered,” He will plead His case with them “face to face,” Just as He did with their fathers ”in the wilderness of the land of Egypt.”And the transgressors among them will be brought “out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel.” This is plainly when Messiah comes, so all Israel will not be there until that time.
All this agrees perfectly with the fact that those who have now returned to the land are called Jews. The word Jew does not mean an Israelite. It means a descendant of the ancient kingdom of Judah, that is, a member of either the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Benjamin. This can be seen from the Hebrew words translated “Jew” in the Old Testament. The most commonly used one is yeudiy (word number 3064 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary). The meaning of this word becomes obvious when we see the word it is derived from, yehudah (word number 3063 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary). This is the name transliterated Judah, the name of the tribe and kingdom of Judah. Thus we see that the original form of the word Jew was Judie, or a citizen of Judah.
There is another detail only slightly more obvious, which shows that Gog’s attack cannot be before Daniel’s seventieth week. The prophecy repeatedly states that at the time of the attack, the people of Israel will be dwelling “safely.” (Ezekiel 38:8,11,14) The Hebrew word translated safely in each of these places is betach. (word number 983 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word doesn’t only refer to the actual fact of safety. It also refers to a feeling of being safe. Whether the word refers to the fact or the feeling of safety can only be determined from the context. In this case, the meaning is plainly the feeling of safety, rather than the actual fact. This can be seen from verse 14: “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it?’”” If the meaning was that Gog knew the people were actually safe, this would not make him decide to attack. But if the meaning was that Gog knew they felt safe, it would encourage him to attack. We see this more clearly in verse 11: “You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’” Thus we see that the word safely in this prophecy refers to feeling safe, not actually being safe.
In Daniel 9:27 we are told that The Roman prince will make a seven year covenant with Judah. This seven year period is Daniel’s seventieth week. This covenant will give them a false sense of security. (Isaiah 28:14‑18) It seems obvious that those who dwell in present day Israel will never feel safe until the Roman prince’s treaty is confirmed. But we cannot interpret prophecy on the basis of current events. We need scripture for even this. In Amos 1:11 we read, “For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away its punishent, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, And cast off all pity; His anger tore perpetually, And he kept his wrath forever.” The anger and wrath of Edom will never cease. The ancient land of Edom covered the southern portion of present day _Jordan and the north-western part of today’s Saudi Arabia. Again, in Amos 1:6 we read “For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because they took captive the whole captivity To deliver them up to Edom,” clearly showing that Gaza will join Edom in their wickedness. The next verse, 8, mentions that this is the land of the Philistines. (that is, the Palestinians) And verse 9 adds that Tyre (in present day Lebanon) will join in as well. Thus we see that until Edom is destroyed there will never be a time when Judah (which is now called Israel) will have reasonable cause to feel safe. This shows that the people will not “dwell safely” until the Roman prince confirms his treaty, so Gog’s attack cannot be before that time. But this will not happen until Messiah comes.
We know this because we read in Jeremiah 49:20‑22, “Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Edom, And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them. The earth shakes at the noise of their fall; At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea. Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.”
Again, we read in Isaiah 34:5‑10, “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's ven[bless and do not curse]geance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.”
This judgment begins at Bozrah, about thirty miles south of the Dead Sea. It then goes some twenty‑five miles south to Teman, and from there to within hearing of the Red Sea. Habakkuk 3:3 mentions the Lord’s coming from Mount Paran, which is approximately one hundred and sixty miles southeast of Teman, and is on the shore of the Red Sea. This entire area will receive the same judgment as Sodom and Gomorrah.​

This obviously takes place at the time when Messiah comes in power and glory, so we know Edom will not be destroyed until that time. And from this, we know that Israel will not dwell safely before that time, and therefore that Gog’s invasion cannot be before that time.

 

[That Canadian Guy]

Where does the Bible say that the valley of Megiddo will be the site of a battle?

Just look up the origins of the word itself. From wikipedia...

Mount Armageddon (From Hebrew: הַר מְגִדּוֹ‎, Har Megiddo, lit. Mount Megiddo; Greek: Ἁρμαγεδών Harmagedōn)

 

[That Canadian Guy]

But we read in Revelation 20:7-10, "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

This passage clearly states that Gog and Magog will attack after the millennium.

But we need to compare this with Ezekiel 38:18-23, where we read, "'And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,' says the Lord GOD, 'that My fury will show in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: "Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,"' says the Lord GOD. "Every man’s sword will be against his brother. And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.'"

When these two passages are compared we see that the manner in which Gog and Magog will be destroyed is different in these two passages.

This difference becomes even more marked when we consider what takes place after the battles in these two passages. In Ezekiel 39:25-29 we read, “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name—after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”

But in Revelation 21:1 we read, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea."

So even the results of these two battles are different.In Ezekiel 38-29, the defeat of Gog and Magog leads to all Israel being regathered and settled in their land, and the knowledge among the gentiles that the Lord is the God of Israel. But in Revelation 20-21, the defeat of Gog and Magog leads to the destruction of the earth itself, followed by its being re-settled from heaven itself.

So there is no way that these two passages could even possibly be speaking of the same battle. Ezekiel 38-39 takes place before the millennium, and Revelation 20:7-10 takes place after it.

Excellent, much thanks Biblewriter

 

[NightHawkeye]

Here's a map of ancient Israel which shows most of the landmarks being discussed.

 

[Biblewriter]

deteted

 

[Biblewriter]

There is currently something wrong with the forum website that prevents us from editing posts. So I am reposting my last post with more detail.

Here is a link to a series of prophecy related maps I posted three years ago.

The first map in the series shows details of the valley of Blessing, which I conclude is "The Valley of Jehoshaphat." It also shows the path of "the Assyrian," as detailed in Isaiah 10:28-32.

http://www.christianforums.com/t6934023-2/

The second map shows the ancient kingdom of Daniel's "King of the North" (the Selucid empire) superimposed on a map of the more ancient kingdom of Assyria, with the terrirory of "the king of the South," (the Ptolemaic empire) added just for interest. This is very instructive, as they are identical except from a few sparsely settled areas at the edges. All the areas occupied by one and not the other are either mountainous or desert. This is one of the reasons I conclude that Daniel's "King of the North" is the same future individual as Isaiah's, Micah's, and Nahum's "Assyrian." (There are also other scriptural reasons for this conclusion, but this is the most obvious one.)

The third map shows the ancient territories of Magog,the land of Gog, as well as the locations of the Meshech and Tubal mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

The fourth map shows the lands of Gomer superimposed on a map of the ancient Roman Empire. The significance of this comparison is that as Gomer occupies most of the European portion of the ancient Roman Empire, it cannot be destroyed befoer the rise of "the Beast." This is because Gomer comes with God to attack Israel.

The last map shows the future borders of the land of Israel, as detailed in Ezekiel 47:13-20.

 

[Paul.]

Where does the Bible say that the valley of Megiddo will be the site of a battle?

Just look up the origins of the word itself. From wikipedia...

Mount Armageddon (From Hebrew: הַר מְגִדּוֹ‎, Har Megiddo, lit. Mount Megiddo; Greek: Ἁρμαγεδών Harmagedōn)

As NightHawkeye correctly points out, Revelation 16:12-18 says

the "kings of the earth" will be gathered to the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" at Armageddon.

During World War 2 the Allies and their forces gathered in southern England for the D-Day landings which saw the battle take place on the 6th June 1944 along the Normandy coastline in occupied France. The gathering of an army and the battle that follows, does not automatically occur in the same place.

 

[That Canadian Guy]

As NightHawkeye correctly points out, Revelation 16:12-18 says

During World War 2 the Allies and their forces gathered in southern England for the D-Day landings which saw the battle take place on the 6th June 1944 along the Normandy coastline in occupied France. The gathering of an army and the battle that follows, does not automatically occur in the same place.

For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

If you read the text properly, it is fairly clear that they are being gathered there for battle.

 

[Biblewriter]

During World War 2 the Allies and their forces gathered in southern England for the D-Day landings which saw the battle take place on the 6th June 1944 along the Normandy coastline in occupied France. The gathering of an army and the battle that follows, does not automatically occur in the same place.

This is technically correct. But the implication certainly seems to be that the battle will take place at that point. This gathering cannot be for the initial battle when Christ first returns to the earth, for that battle takes place far from the plain of Megiddo, in a completely different part of Israel.