Understanding Unorthodox Christians

[Vanguard PCD]

Let's face it, people are sometimes ready to come to blows when debating religion, especially Christianity. Two people, both who claim to be Christian, can get so heated that they are verbally tearing each other's throats out. Usually it is a conservative, literalist debating a liberal, allegorical believer.

I'd like to take a moment and explain why many of us consider ourselves Unorthodox Christians (UC). Put aside your personal beliefs for a second and look at this objectively and with an open mind. Hopefully this will shed some light on our position, and allow you to understand where we are coming from.

UC tend to look at things in a modern mindset. Often we rely on science to explain things that ancient man did not understand, did not have access to, and could not possibly even grasp with their limited technology. We do not get caught up in the mysticism and supernatural as much as our other brethren do. An example would be an eclipse...the ancient Chinese used to think that a dragon swallowed the sun. We now know what is going on when that happens, thanks to science and technology.

We are not trying to cause doubt, and we certainly do not deny the existence of God. However, many of us do not believe that the Bible is 100% literal (and neither does Judaism, which reads the OT in the Hebrew). We see it more as allegorical, in that the stories contained therein teach a lesson. Ancient man did not have TV, computers and cell phones. Children did not have a Xbox, PS, Nerf guns or bicycles. Entertainment was often done in the form of story telling. Those stories can grow and change over time.

Man wrote every letter in the Bible. We can say that God inspired those writings, but inspiration is not the same thing as dictated verbatim. An inspired writing is left up to interpretation by the author's imagination. We understand that reading the Bible in English is not the same thing as being able to read and understand it in the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. Information is lost in translation.

We tend to be "outside of the box" thinkers. We analyze things and use our God given ability to reason. That is why we tend to be skeptical when it comes to the supernatural. We do not blame a devil or demons for evil and the bad things that happen. We believe in an omnipotent God who, for all practical purposes, could simply snap His fingers and uncreate a devil/demons if they truly existed and were His arch enemies.

God gave us free will. If God were to intervene in any shape or form against free will, then we are nothing more than automatons that are subject to His wishes. Why create humans without free will? If that were the case, God could simply "program" us and what would be the point in worshipping Him, if that worship does not come from the freedom of choice? If free will did not exist and we all just follow our programming, why even bother with Hell? God condemns His little robots because they followed the programming that He made? Bah!

That also means that He would be to blame for everything that happens, and we just can't imagine a loving God killing innocent children. No, things happen either according to the laws of nature (natural disasters) or because a human, with free will, chose to do something bad/evil. That is just the way it is in our eyes.

Knowing all of this, whenever we engage in a debate and someone starts quoting verses from the Bible, you have to keep in mind that the "evidence" that you present might not be taken literally. If we reject it as literal and view it as allegorical or metaphorical, then your whole argument can be null and void. This is also why there are so many different denominations and beliefs. Everyone can see the words and read the Bible, but our understanding of what is written can differ greatly. That is human nature.

These debates typically escalate into a contest of trying to prove the other person wrong, instead of being open minded and learning a different view about the gospel. I am guilty of this myself. However, more times than not I am the one that is offering the different, non-traditional view. You have to keep in mind that all of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) are all "revealed" religions. That means that someone at some point in time, makes the claim of having received divine words from God and preached those words to the masses. That person is the singular voice of God. What they say, goes. While what they are saying may be true (can't prove it one way or the other), this type of belief system has the potential risk for abuse of power.

UC tend to look beyond the dogma of traditional beliefs, that may or may not have had too much human influence over the centuries. Repeating something that is wrong 10,000 times, does not make it right.

And no, I do not speak for every UC, just myself.

 

[GivingMyAll4Him]

This is a great description. I hope that people who disagree with it are able to read it and come to an understanding of why and how different people believe without feeling threatened by it.

Also, for what it's worth, you don't sound "unorthodox" - you sound Wesleyan. If you run over to the Wesley's Parish area of CF, you'll find many people (including myself) who are on the same page as you on everything or nearly everything you wrote.

Final thought: Orthodoxy is much broader than many people think. Nothing you've described is considered unorthodox in many Christian traditions.

 

[A New Dawn]

I think you are assuming that all unorthodox Christians think like you. When I was an unorthodox Christian, I was very conservative, just like I am now. I was unorthodox because I was raised in an unorthodox church and was not exposed to Biblical Christianity. The church I was in became, over the course of about 30 years, very liberal, but that isn't why they were unorthodox, maybe that is why they continue to be unorthodox, but not why they were to begin with.

 

[timewerx]

We tend to be "outside of the box" thinkers. We analyze things and use our God given ability to reason.

Did you read my sig?? Great topic btw!

Just look how many times the Orthodox made mistakes and later on admitted their mistakes and revised interpretations of scriptures. Mistakes due to ignorance of the natural laws/science and ignorance of the spiritual realm.

Unfortunately, we still don't know a huge deal of the natural laws. We still have so many things to learn and worse, religion often demonizes science - the one thing that could correct it.

I'm not saying that mainstream science is perfect or its intentions are pure. It still ignores the science of spirituality and the supernatural despite irrefutable documented evidence of its existence and consistency.

 

[single eye]

Jesus said "If your eye is single your whole body will be full of light and the light will cast out the darkness." If you try to understand this as literal or allegorical you will fail. Why? Because it is a symbolic analogy and it is well established that in order to understand we must know what the symbols represent. This is how we come to understand Jesus. Allegorical and literal interpretations are futile.

 

[timewerx]

Jesus said "If your eye is single your whole body will be full of light and the light will cast out the darkness." If you try to understand this as literal or allegorical you will fail. Why? Because it is a symbolic analogy and it is well established that in order to understand we must know what the symbols represent. This is how we come to understand Jesus. Allegorical and literal interpretations are futile.

It means if you have at least one eye, you will see the Truth and this Truth will be the light upon you. But as it is, people are usually blind.

However, the one-eye symbol is also popular in occult symbols, freemasonry, and the despotic nation of Saudi (who also flashes a big 666 in their police cars, infamous for their human rights abuses and failure of their justice system).

The one eye actually symbolizes the chief archon - the chief of evil in our world. Because he can see the Truth and this Truth he hid from us in order to deceive us. Organizations who uses the symbol, worship this evil. The least secretive of them being the Kingdom of Saudi in the Middle East who also has 666 on their police cars and uses Freemasonry logo in their military badge! Interesting huh? Especially with the fact that they are close allies of USA whose founding fathers whom many are Freemasons!

 

[Gibs]

Why would anyone who finds they have come to all truth find they are not orthodox.

I happen not to care if the world thinks I am orthodox or unorthodox.

Are we with God is the one and only consideration!

 

[Albion]

Let's face it, people are sometimes ready to come to blows when debating religion, especially Christianity. Two people, both who claim to be Christian, can get so heated that they are verbally tearing each other's throats out. Usually it is a conservative, literalist debating a liberal, allegorical believer.

I'd like to take a moment and explain why many of us consider ourselves Unorthodox Christians (UC). Put aside your personal beliefs for a second and look at this objectively and with an open mind. Hopefully this will shed some light on our position, and allow you to understand where we are coming from.

UC tend to look at things in a modern mindset. Often we rely on science to explain things that ancient man did not understand, did not have access to, and could not possibly even grasp with their limited technology. We do not get caught up in the mysticism and supernatural as much as our other brethren do. An example would be an eclipse...the ancient Chinese used to think that a dragon swallowed the sun. We now know what is going on when that happens, thanks to science and technology.

We are not trying to cause doubt, and we certainly do not deny the existence of God.

PA, I read your post with interest. You make a reasonable case for your position, that's for sure. But one thing does not click for me. You describe a certain kind of thinker. While you don't say that it applies to every last unorthodox Christian, you do say "UC tend to look at things in a modern mindset."

I think that while some do, most do not. You are no doubt correctly describing yourself, an unorthodox Christian, but...

Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Swedenborgians, Christian Scientists, Spiritists, and the other religious groups that are the best-known of "unorthodox Christians" are anything BUT science-oriented and against Mysticism. It's just the opposite with them.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Why would anyone who finds they have come to all truth find they are not orthodox.

I happen not to care if the world thinks I am orthodox or unorthodox.

Are we with God is the one and only consideration!

Ultimately, I believe that is what is true. At least if I understand correctly what you mean by "are we with God". I believe Christ is what ultimately matters. How people particularly see Him, whether they believe everything He taught should be literal or as a story meant to teach a general lesson, and all this peripheral doctrine like end times, nature of hell, calvinism vs. arminianism, etc., really needs to come to an agree to disagree point between Christ believers at some point, else we are divided and not shining a very good light for those on the outside. No one person has 100% acurate truth of the Bible. They know very well they are fooling themselves if they claim to, and that anyone who disagrees with how they interpret something in Scripture is a damnable heretic or something. Whether it's orthodox or unorthodox teaching does not determine its veracity.

 

[o2bwise]

The more I think about it, the more I think the topic title is off.

The reason I say this is because under the unorthodox camp are what I, a professed Christian who is unorthodox, consider "way out in left field."

If 100% theological truth is highly unorthodox, it makes too much sense to me to have to differentiate this category from the unorthodox others.

There are also folks who are unorthodox, but who believe what they do because it is their tradition. Take Christian Science, which I see as pretty out there. There are unorthodox folks who are Christian Science because they are "X generation Christian Scientists" and in this case, such a person has much in common with orthodox Christians, in my opinion.

Which is to believe things at least in part because it is prevalent within one's own normality.


Tony

 

[Gibs]

Ultimately, I believe that is what is true. At least if I understand correctly what you mean by "are we with God". I believe Christ is what ultimately matters. How people particularly see Him, whether they believe everything He taught should be literal or as a story meant to teach a general lesson, and all this peripheral doctrine like end times, nature of hell, calvinism vs. arminianism, etc., really needs to come to an agree to disagree point between Christ believers at some point, else we are divided and not shining a very good light for those on the outside. No one person has 100% acurate truth of the Bible. They know very well they are fooling themselves if they claim to, and that anyone who disagrees with how they interpret something in Scripture is a damnable heretic or something. Whether it's orthodox or unorthodox teaching does not determine its veracity.

I find this is a wonderful and sure promise, by Jesus,

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[RBPerry]

UC tend to look beyond the dogma of traditional beliefs, that may or may not have had too much human influence over the centuries. Repeating something that is wrong 10,000 times, does not make it right.

First off, thank you for your post, I think it is spot on. It is so difficult to get what is perceived as orthodox Christianity to think outside the bible box.

Many that make their living within the orthodox community may privately agree with you, but also realize it is career suicide to openly agree with your logic.

Over the last few years I have studied the Nag Hammabi Scrolls, Gnostic thinking, and Christianity history. Those of us who believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit should be more open minded, but I fear that will never happen.

The only disagreement I have with your position is regarding the supernatural. I'm one who has seen and experienced God move in a way that defies what is expected naturally.

 

[Gibs]

Until the Spirit of Truth truly does enter one, the scriptures are more or less print on paper.

When Christ has come and is truly dwelling within those printed scriptures come alive and shine out as light to you.

It takes TOTAL and complete surrender, not a whit withheld or He does not take abode in the soul temple.

We are either Wholly Thine LORD or we will be None of Thine!

Christ in you is that Spirit and one's only hope of Glory!

 

[SarahsKnight]

It takes TOTAL and complete surrender, not a whit withheld or He does not take abode in the soul temple.

We are either Wholly Thine LORD or we will be None of Thine!

Christ in you is that Spirit and one's only hope of Glory!

Well, correct me if I am musunderstanding you, Gibs, but when you say it like that, it sounds like you're saying pretty much the same thing extremists or fundamentalists would stereotypically say, that if you get any part of the Bible wrong, then Christ isn't in you at all, therefore you aren't a true believer and therefore condemned or something.

 

[Albion]

The more I think about it, the more I think the topic title is off.

The reason I say this is because under the unorthodox camp are what I, a professed Christian who is unorthodox, consider "way out in left field."

If 100% theological truth is highly unorthodox, it makes too much sense to me to have to differentiate this category from the unorthodox others.

There are also folks who are unorthodox, but who believe what they do because it is their tradition. Take Christian Science, which I see as pretty out there. There are unorthodox folks who are Christian Science because they are "X generation Christian Scientists" and in this case, such a person has much in common with orthodox Christians, in my opinion.

Which is to believe things at least in part because it is prevalent within one's own normality.


Tony

Not to argue unnecessarily, Tony, because I know what you're saying...but these unorthodox churches like Christian Science do not have much in common with orthodox Christian denominations, either Protestant or Catholic, EXCEPT in organization.

I think you are saying two things to us: 1) that there are widely different denominations and beliefs lumped together here (which is because CF is mainly for orthodox Christians and no forum is reserved for X unorthodox denomination in the way that there are for Baptists, Lutherans, etc.), and 2) you represent a point of view that's identifiable but not connected to any denomination.

You have a point, but still, I can see why the owners do not feel an obligation to be operating this site in order to be fair to every last person who has religious convictions--including some who, admittedly, are Christian.

 

[RBPerry]

that if you get any part of the Bible wrong, then Christ isn't in you at all, therefore you aren't a true believer and therefore condemned or something.

That is exactly what is being said, if you question any part of the bible then the Holy Spirit isn't working in you, or hasn't enlightened you to His truth.

It is a strongman and fear tactic that is commonly used to control people. It not only works in religion, it is also used in politics, and in business.

 

[Gibs]

Well, correct me if I am musunderstanding you, Gibs, but when you say it like that, it sounds like you're saying pretty much the same thing extremists or fundamentalists would stereotypically say, that if you get any part of the Bible wrong, then Christ isn't in you at all, therefore you aren't a true believer and therefore condemned or something.

That is a promise of Christ that we can hold Him to and He wants us to.

Now hear Him here,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

For sure I do not believe in paraphrasing any of the Word as He says what He means and means what He says.

 

[SarahsKnight]

That is exactly what is being said, if you question any part of the bible then the Holy Spirit isn't working in you, or hasn't enlightened you to His truth.

It is a strongman and fear tactic that is commonly used to control people. It not only works in religion, it is also used in politics, and in business.

Well, that's what most seem to misunderstand about believers who think in the minority on some theological subjects (unorthodox?). I didn't question God's word and especially not Christ Himself - THE Word - when I started searching the Scriptures to see if the manstream belief of the immortal soul and eternal conscious torment was actually Biblical and true. I was questioning if we'd been simply misunderstanding or misinterpreting Scripture all these years, and unknowingly being influenced by philosophical thought as we read through verses and passages concerning the nature of man and the fate of those who do not believe.

.... And I'm still not sure if Gibs is answering my question with a yes or no on my question of: is he saying or at least suggesting that if we get any part of the Bible wrong, any theological subject, then we are totally NOT of Christ, as in false believers or unbelievers who are still condemed. So far my guess is yes since he posted the verses about worshiping in spirit and in truth but I'm not certain.

 

[rick357]

That is a promise of Christ that we can hold Him to and He wants us to.

Now hear Him here,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

For sure I do not believe in paraphrasing any of the Word as He says what He means and means what He says.

Are you saying one must be correct on every subject or they are not saved

 

[abysmul]

I think an awful lot of people (myself included) spend/have spent an awful lot of time wrapping themselves in descriptors: orthodox/unorthodox/denomination/etc and perhaps that time would be better spent in study and prayer. I think it is part of our human nature to first think of what separates/distinguishes us from others, instead of thinking about what we have in common.

(I'm not claiming that there are not important specific issues of faith, just that perhaps our approach towards each other tends to not always be the wisest.)