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Unanswered Theological Questions

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aeroz19

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I've been asking these questions for a while now, but there has been no answer beyond the basic surface theology that I, being a Christian, already know. So I am asking these questions again, but in this forum this time.
  1. Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?
  2. What does burning in hell for eternity accomplish?
  3. Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?
  4. If we're all doomed to hell, why did God give us such a fragile means of finding out such an eternally-important fact about our destinies: the Bible? The Bible's geocentric model has been disproven, it contains errors and contradictions, and is scientifically flawed if meant to be taken literally. We can't trust it. And on top of that, not all people in the world have a Bible. They only have an innate desire to believe in the existance of a god, and not specifically the Christian God. So, they are not really without excuse at all.
  5. How do we know that the Christian religion is the most accurate expression of God's revelation to humankind? If we had been born in the Middle East, for example, we would be making the same arguments for Allah and the Quran. So why is our religion different? What makes Christianity the "true" religion?
  6. Why do we trust the Bible as authentic/inspired/true?
Note: appeals to authority will not work. Anyone from any religion can stand there and warn me that unless I believe in their god or religion and stop doubting that I'll be doomed. But it's still illogical.

I just need lots of input from other people. These are the questions that have been swimming in my head since age 13, and I have not asked them until just in the past few weeks. I need to get past this and establish some solid answers.

Oh, and please don't recite theology that I already know, such as Jesus dying on the cross, how to get saved 101, our sins require the death of Jesus, etc. Those are not even addressing the questions here.
 
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holyrokker

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I'll try to help you come to some answers.

I'll start with #1 "Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?"

I don't think that there are "small" are "large" sins.

Sin is more an attitude of self determination. It's a rejection of God's authority. The acts that we refer to as "sins" result from this inner attitude.

Jesus said (Matthew 5:27-28) "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Here we see that sin originates in the heart - not in the action.

Again, Jesus said (Mark 7:21-23) "For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ "
 
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jbarcher

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I've been asking these questions for a while now, but there has been no answer beyond the basic surface theology that I, being a Christian, already know. So I am asking these questions again, but in this forum this time.

I'd like to warn you that few that attend CF are capable of answering your questions, few have the study / education, and fewer still have the time. Your questions are indeed above basic, but asking for above basic questions @ CF is generally pointless. A better forum would be TWeb, and I can give you a few names to look for there. Nevertheless, I can almost guarantee that to get satisfactory answers, you will need to go to the scholars and hit the books. My goal for this post is just to point you in some directions. I do not have the time to compose satisfactory answers, though I'd like to. Please excuse the numerous unsupported and ungrounded assertions.

Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?
We need to look at "what" sin is, and more specifically, "who" sin is done against. We may say that a sin is an offense against God. Then we look at how severity factors out, and severity factors out in terms of status. If you offend a low-status player in a culture, the offense is not considered that bad (i.e. hitting a slave in ANE times). But if you offend a higher status player, the offense will be considered worse. A pretty clear example is if you were to spit on a king (again, ANE times). You would be killed, your family would be killed, and probably your livestock mutilated and property burnt down and everyone whom you know threatened or worse. The offense rises with the status of the offended.

Then we look at "who" is being offended, who is being sinned against. God, simply. What's God's status? God is of infinite status--and thus each sin, while having its own outworkings, is of infinite offense.

What does burning in hell for eternity accomplish?
We first need to address some of the assumptions being made here--and even if not, some of the connotations and images that go with "burning in hell". For example, Dante, I believe it was, envisoned numerous graphic images, such as women impaled on hooks, hanging by named parts of their body. There is some quality discussion here regarding what hell is and so on.

After that, when this question is placed within the context of the previous question, 'hell' is a place of disgrace and shame (keep in mind that not all punishments are done with deterrance in mind!), and a place for punishment.

Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?
There are a number of good answers, and it'll take a little time to gather all those good answers and see how they are coherent. One answer is that God does so out of personal integrity. God is infinite (I'm using the theological term here, not the philosophical infinite), and consequently, justice needs to be dished out.

However, this brings into the question of mercy. It is a very interesting one, usually because it is such an illuminating discussion--it reveals a whole host of presuppositions about what people think 'should be' and 'shouldn't be' and 'what God would/should do' and so on. But consider this: God is both a God of justice AND mercy.

I'll take you right to the cross for this. The cross is a symbol of both justice and mercy--justice, because God's wrath (please see here for what wrath really is) was being satisfied. The price was paid by another, so that the offender could go free. It was mercy, too, because it was completely undeserved and unearned. Justice was demanded--and all the sinners would die--but justice was fulfilled, as Christ died instead. Read more here.

If we're all doomed to hell, why did God give us such a fragile means of finding out such an eternally-important fact about our destinies: the Bible? The Bible's geocentric model has been disproven, it contains errors and contradictions, and is scientifically flawed if meant to be taken literally. We can't trust it. And on top of that, not all people in the world have a Bible. They only have an innate desire to believe in the existance of a god, and not specifically the Christian God. So, they are not really without excuse at all.
Let me first address a number of illicit assumptions you have made. "the Bible" is not a 'fragile means' as many suppose today. In terms of medium, the written word carries the most authority; even though images carry the most influence. If you stand up to do your doctoral dissertation, they want your previous degrees in writing.

Second, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, from which several key pieces of data come from the NT, is perhaps the most powerful argument possible for any religion or philosophy. If you have not heard of scholars such as N. T. Wright, Craig Blomberg, Ben Witherington, and I could name several more, I don't blame you for thinking certain things about the Bible, but I do note that because you have not done your homework, I cannot give you any credibility when it comes to matters about the Bible.

Third, the Bible does not give a geocentric model. See here for more.

Fourth, I can well assure you, on the basis of your age and the level of your questions, that the Bible has a lot less problems than you think.

Fifth, using the term "literally" without qualification is severely misleading. I can supplement decent illumination on this part later.

Sixth, according to some models of salvation (i.e. Molinism), God commits Himself to give enough grace to every single person, that, if they were to respond to Him, they would be effectually saved. You will need to study a lot more to see the strengths of certain models and so on.

How do we know that the Christian religion is the most accurate expression of God's revelation to humankind? If we had been born in the Middle East, for example, we would be making the same arguments for Allah and the Quran. So why is our religion different? What makes Christianity the "true" religion?
Through archaeology, Biblical criticism, textual criticism, etc, etc. You are basically asking for reasons to believe that Christianity is true, and extensive, sophisticated textual data is the strongest, but most difficult starting point. Among other points, these will need to be proven: 1) the various Bible documents have not changed drastically since their composition, 2) Jesus rose from the dead, 3) Jesus is the Son of God (aka, Jesus is who He claimed to be)...

Why do we trust the Bible as authentic/inspired/true?
Start reading here. Glen Miller (www.christian-thinktank.com) also has extensive content regarding this.

I just need lots of input from other people. These are the questions that have been swimming in my head since age 13, and I have not asked them until just in the past few weeks. I need to get past this and establish some solid answers.
You need good, mature, intelligent, and informed input, not "lots" of input. ;) You'll be far better off considering informed views, rather than uninformed views. But props for taking the time to address these questions.
 
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aeroz19

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holyrokker said:
I'll try to help you come to some answers.

I'll start with #1 "Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?"

I don't think that there are "small" are "large" sins.

Sin is more an attitude of self determination. It's a rejection of God's authority. The acts that we refer to as "sins" result from this inner attitude.

Jesus said (Matthew 5:27-28) "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Here we see that sin originates in the heart - not in the action.

Again, Jesus said (Mark 7:21-23) "For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ "

Now we're getting somewhere. I ought to give you some blessings or something, because you're the first person who has gotten ANYWHERE on this question, other than quoting verses about sin, which just say sin = bad bad bad.

So, sin is an attitude. It's not about the action at all, it's about the cause of the action. And the cause is the attitude of rebellion.

But what is this rebellion? Is it a desire to disobey God? You said it is a rejection of His authority. Let's concentrate on that one.

Why does God get so very angry when we reject His authority? Why is the rejection of His authority deserving of eternall torment?

When we reject God's authority, what we are saying is one or more of a few things:
1. I don't want to obey.
2. My idea is better.
3. How do I even know that God doesn't want me to do this (asked honestly).

There are probably more reasons for rejecting His authority, but I will concentrate on these three for now.

1. This is simply an attitude of rebellion and disobedience. It begins with an assumption that God's will is known concerning a matter, and that for whatever reason, God's will is rejected.

2. This is an attitude of pride/arrogance. Someone assumes that they know what God's will is, but they think theirs is better.

3. Someone does not assume they know what God's will is. How can they know what it is? They have no instruction, no guidance on what His will is. Either this, or they reject the instruction/guidance received as invalid. Is this in and of itself a sin based on an attitude of rebellion? I don't think it is.

Now, I have a feeling that we'll be focusing on 3 here for the rest of the discussion, since it's obvious that 1 and 2 are in error. But 3 is less obvious.

However, the question still remains: why is rejection of His authority deserving of eternal torment? What does that torment accomplish? Does it make God feel better? If those who had rejected God were irrelevant to the whole picture, they could just be poofed out of existance rather than tormented for eternity. So there must be some horrific purpose for their eternal torment. What is it?
 
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Soon Rev 22:11-12

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As for
#1 - "eternal punishment in hell"
and
#2 - "burning in hell for eternity"

Eternal punishMENT is Biblical; eternal punishING is not.
The wages of sin is death. Those who believe not that God so loved the world that He gave His only born Son..., perish.
Eternal life is a gift of God only to those who are "accounted worthy" (Luke 20:35) to receive it. Unrepentant sinners do not get eternal life (not even in a place of pain), they will perish.

Click on these links for Bible truth:

103. What is Man?
104. Eternal Life
105. The Two Resurrections
106. Fate of the Transgressor
107. Everlasting Punishment
108. The Intermediate State
 
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linden

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aeroz19 said:
[*]Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?
You start with a false premise, sin is not the issue in salvation

[*]What does burning in hell for eternity accomplish?

It accomplishes God plan. Angels as well as humans go there on the issue of rejecting Christ, not sins.

[*]Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?

I believe the answer is imputation, but I am still sketchy on this doctrine

[*]If we're all doomed to hell, why did God give us such a fragile means of finding out such an eternally-important fact about our destinies: the Bible? The Bible's geocentric model has been disproven, it contains errors and contradictions, and is scientifically flawed if meant to be taken literally. We can't trust it. And on top of that, not all people in the world have a Bible. They only have an innate desire to believe in the existance of a god, and not specifically the Christian God. So, they are not really without excuse at all.

We are not all doomed to hell, some of us (humans) will believe on the eternal Son and we will have eternal life with God. The Bible may seem to have contradiction but it does not.


[*]How do we know that the Christian religion is the most accurate expression of God's revelation to humankind? If we had been born in the Middle East, for example, we would be making the same arguments for Allah and the Quran. So why is our religion different? What makes Christianity the "true" religion?

technically, Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God based on His grace. Usually other religions around the world are based on a system of works.

[*]Why do we trust the Bible as authentic/inspired/true?
[/list]Note: appeals to authority will not work. Anyone from any religion can stand there and warn me that unless I believe in their god or religion and stop doubting that I'll be doomed. But it's still illogical.

This has to become apparent to you only, I or someone else can not force this idea down your throat. personally a Christian at some point in time, if they are growing in grace, will come to this conclusion, but until then you are spiritually handicapped. The Bible is not written specifically as a science textbook, it is a spiritual textbook. Science is based on observation, Spiritual information is based on faith.

I just need lots of input from other people. These are the questions that have been swimming in my head since age 13, and I have not asked them until just in the past few weeks. I need to get past this and establish some solid answers.

We all have questions, and yours are honest, and I believe that they will be answered. I believe a Christian muststudy under a Pastor teacher who is teaching the truth.

Oh, and please don't recite theology that I already know, such as Jesus dying on the cross, how to get saved 101, our sins require the death of Jesus, etc. Those are not even addressing the questions here.

OK, I won't

Linden
 
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aeroz19

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jbarcher said:
I've been asking these questions for a while now, but there has been no answer beyond the basic surface theology that I, being a Christian, already know. So I am asking these questions again, but in this forum this time.

I'd like to warn you that few that attend CF are capable of answering your questions, few have the study / education, and fewer still have the time. Your questions are indeed above basic, but asking for above basic questions @ CF is generally pointless. A better forum would be TWeb, and I can give you a few names to look for there. Nevertheless, I can almost guarantee that to get satisfactory answers, you will need to go to the scholars and hit the books. My goal for this post is just to point you in some directions. I do not have the time to compose satisfactory answers, though I'd like to. Please excuse the numerous unsupported and ungrounded assertions.

Well, that's what I figured. But this is a good place to launch such a study.

Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?
We need to look at "what" sin is, and more specifically, "who" sin is done against. We may say that a sin is an offense against God. Then we look at how severity factors out, and severity factors out in terms of status. If you offend a low-status player in a culture, the offense is not considered that bad (i.e. hitting a slave in ANE times). But if you offend a higher status player, the offense will be considered worse. A pretty clear example is if you were to spit on a king (again, ANE times). You would be killed, your family would be killed, and probably your livestock mutilated and property burnt down and everyone whom you know threatened or worse. The offense rises with the status of the offended.

Then we look at "who" is being offended, who is being sinned against. God, simply. What's God's status? God is of infinite status--and thus each sin, while having its own outworkings, is of infinite offense.

Your argument, then, is that, the more important or the greater the status of the offended, the more severe the punishment must be to the offender.

I'll have to look into that one, but it doesn't hold as much weight as the other argument: It's not about the sin, it's about the cause of it/the attitude.


What does burning in hell for eternity accomplish?
We first need to address some of the assumptions being made here--and even if not, some of the connotations and images that go with "burning in hell". For example, Dante, I believe it was, envisoned numerous graphic images, such as women impaled on hooks, hanging by named parts of their body. There is some quality discussion here regarding what hell is and so on.

After that, when this question is placed within the context of the previous question, 'hell' is a place of disgrace and shame (keep in mind that not all punishments are done with deterrance in mind!), and a place for punishment.

But when the question is placed within the context of the previous question, the entire reasoning here comes falling apart.

Example: The offense against a slave deserves the same punishment as the offense against the king. Status of the offended should have nothing to do with the degree of the punishment...unless we are going to build a case that God doesn't have to be fair or reasonable, but can go about inflicting pain and harm however and whenever He so wishes. But then we would make God into an evil God rather than a loving and good God.


Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?
There are a number of good answers, and it'll take a little time to gather all those good answers and see how they are coherent. One answer is that God does so out of personal integrity. God is infinite (I'm using the theological term here, not the philosophical infinite), and consequently, justice needs to be dished out.

I have heard of this argument before, but it never clicked in my head. Maybe if I read more about it, it'll click.


However, this brings into the question of mercy. It is a very interesting one, usually because it is such an illuminating discussion--it reveals a whole host of presuppositions about what people think 'should be' and 'shouldn't be' and 'what God would/should do' and so on. But consider this: God is both a God of justice AND mercy.

Lets be careful, however, and not use the justice part of the equation as a justification for mass hysterical suffering, which is what we often do in these discussions. God is justice, therefore He can do x-y-z. God is justice, so he can kill your baby before he is born. God is justice, so he can wipe out large populations of people. God is justice, so he can torment people in hell forever. God is justice, so he can "fill in the blank with whatever you want, basically."

I'll take you right to the cross for this. The cross is a symbol of both justice and mercy--justice, because God's wrath (please see here for what wrath really is) was being satisfied. The price was paid by another, so that the offender could go free. It was mercy, too, because it was completely undeserved and unearned. Justice was demanded--and all the sinners would die--but justice was fulfilled, as Christ died instead. Read more here.

Yes I know that part.

If we're all doomed to hell, why did God give us such a fragile means of finding out such an eternally-important fact about our destinies: the Bible? The Bible's geocentric model has been disproven, it contains errors and contradictions, and is scientifically flawed if meant to be taken literally. We can't trust it. And on top of that, not all people in the world have a Bible. They only have an innate desire to believe in the existance of a god, and not specifically the Christian God. So, they are not really without excuse at all.
Let me first address a number of illicit assumptions you have made. "the Bible" is not a 'fragile means' as many suppose today. In terms of medium, the written word carries the most authority; even though images carry the most influence. If you stand up to do your doctoral dissertation, they want your previous degrees in writing.

Second, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, from which several key pieces of data come from the NT, is perhaps the most powerful argument possible for any religion or philosophy. If you have not heard of scholars such as N. T. Wright, Craig Blomberg, Ben Witherington, and I could name several more, I don't blame you for thinking certain things about the Bible, but I do note that because you have not done your homework, I cannot give you any credibility when it comes to matters about the Bible.

I have not heard those scholars, and I admit that I have not been "doing my homework" on these issues, as I have been focusing my "homework" on history right now.


Third, the Bible does not give a geocentric model. See here for more.

We could go at this all day. I have been involved in the debate on this topic for a long time, and yes it does. But this is the wrong forum for this.

Fourth, I can well assure you, on the basis of your age and the level of your questions, that the Bible has a lot less problems than you think.

I am now considering hiding my age icon.

Fifth, using the term "literally" without qualification is severely misleading. I can supplement decent illumination on this part later.

We could go to the C&E forums too to discuss literalism.

Sixth, according to some models of salvation (i.e. Molinism), God commits Himself to give enough grace to every single person, that, if they were to respond to Him, they would be effectually saved. You will need to study a lot more to see the strengths of certain models and so on.

I have never heard of Molinism. But then again, until a few months ago, I didn't even know what a chalice or sacraments or liturgies were. I blame this on the denomination I grew up in, which kept me thoroughly ignorant of Church history, as well as church doctrines that it did not teach.

But this will soon be rectified.

How do we know that the Christian religion is the most accurate expression of God's revelation to humankind? If we had been born in the Middle East, for example, we would be making the same arguments for Allah and the Quran. So why is our religion different? What makes Christianity the "true" religion?
Through archaeology, Biblical criticism, textual criticism, etc, etc. You are basically asking for reasons to believe that Christianity is true, and extensive, sophisticated textual data is the strongest, but most difficult starting point. Among other points, these will need to be proven: 1) the various Bible documents have not changed drastically since their composition, 2) Jesus rose from the dead, 3) Jesus is the Son of God (aka, Jesus is who He claimed to be)...

Which means study study studyyyyyy...but that sounds delightful to me.


Why do we trust the Bible as authentic/inspired/true?
Start reading here. Glen Miller (www.christian-thinktank.com) also has extensive content regarding this.

Looks like a good site. I'll take a look.
 
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aeroz19

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Soon Rev 22:11-12 said:
As for
#1 - "eternal punishment in hell"
and
#2 - "burning in hell for eternity"

Eternal punishMENT is Biblical; eternal punishING is not.
The wages of sin is death. Those who believe not that God so loved the world that He gave His only born Son..., perish.
Eternal life is a gift of God only to those who are "accounted worthy" (Luke 20:35) to receive it. Unrepentant sinners do not get eternal life (not even in a place of pain), they will perish.

Click on these links for Bible truth:

103. What is Man?
104. Eternal Life
105. The Two Resurrections
106. Fate of the Transgressor
107. Everlasting Punishment
108. The Intermediate State

Perfect example of what I asked people to avoid. Post ignored.
 
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ps139

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Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?
God cannot abide sin. There can be no trace of sin in Heaven, it is simply impossible. To enter heaven we must have repented of our sins, and be fully sanctified. Hell is where God is not, therefore that is where all sin must eventually go.
I hope that helped, thats how I understand it.
 
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Soon Rev 22:11-12

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aeroz19 said:
Perfect example of what I asked people to avoid. Post ignored.
Wrong. You only think you know what the Bible says about issues related to questions 1 and 2. You start with a faulty premise which leads to a faulty conclusion (and a faulty question!).

Hell doesn't burn throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Questions 1 & 2 are invalid. http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm
 
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Soon Rev 22:11-12

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Sodom and Gomorrha an Example of Hell Fire

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:4, 6).

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 6, 7).


[Sodom and Gomorrha are used as an example of what the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire will be like. Eternal fire reduced them to ashes.]

 
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jbarcher

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Your argument, then, is that, the more important or the greater the status of the offended, the more severe the punishment must be to the offender.

You need to remember that we are talking about the ancients. They had retributive justice--"eye for an eye", which is the principle called lex talonis. It means that the punishment must fit the crime. So the severity of the offense dictates the severity of the punishment. I think you will need to drop some 21st century assumptions to avoid anachronisms...

Status of the offended should have nothing to do with the degree of the punishment

Why not? That's how it worked in ANE cultures, and we are talking about things that came out of ANE cultures. Also, keep in mind that I am not giving a detailed exposition here, and hence there are nuances and further qualifications to be found. However, IF you do not note that we are dealing with texts far, far removed from our low-context culture, you are going to be stuck in that anachronism, and I can assure you that there is no way out of that.

What I was discussing in terms of 'all sin being of infinite offense' is that, that is what each sin amounts to. However, there are different severities of offense, but even so, all sin is worthy of infinite punishment. We affirm both that 'all sin leads to death' AND that there are different levels of offense.

I have heard of this argument before, but it never clicked in my head.

It's basically that the transgression demands justice.

Lets be careful, however, and not use the justice part of the equation as a justification for mass hysterical suffering, which is what we often do in these discussions. God is justice, therefore He can do x-y-z. God is justice, so he can kill your baby before he is born. God is justice, so he can wipe out large populations of people. God is justice, so he can torment people in hell forever. God is justice, so he can "fill in the blank with whatever you want, basically."

Yes, and that is the problem everyone faces when they don't have the time to do detailed expositions. What I would put in that if-then is what could be exegeted from Scripture. Also, note further that your examples leave very critical questions unasked: why would He kill your baby? who are you? what did the populations specifically do to merit their immediate destruction?

And, a more fundamental problem you'd have if you were trying to 'judge' what is just outside of God, what is your standard, where does it come from, and how do you know it is true?

I have not heard those scholars, and I admit that I have not been "doing my homework" on these issues, as I have been focusing my "homework" on history right now.

Go history. :) I am working on ANE cultures...

We could go at this all day. I have been involved in the debate on this topic for a long time, and yes it does. But this is the wrong forum for this.

Like I would do for everything, if one is not a competent critic of the Bible, I can give them no credibility.

I am now considering hiding my age icon.

My apologies if this was sensitive. I was hinting that age is a reasonable basis to get an idea of what study one has done. I did not want to say "based on your education" because a) I do not know your education, and b) it may imply that I think you are stupid, which I do not.

We could go to the C&E forums too to discuss literalism.

The proper forum is Bibliology & Hermeutics. The field that discusses what "literalism" as a hermeutical philosophy is, is hermeutics. I would not leave philosophy of hermeutics up to scientists, or, alleged scientists, or what have you.

I blame this on the denomination I grew up in, which kept me thoroughly ignorant of Church history, as well as church doctrines that it did not teach.

That sucks. :(

Which means study study studyyyyyy...but that sounds delightful to me.

Basically. The only problem is, and I am wincing now, is that there are scores and scores of pages of graduate-level and beyond, to read.....it's quite the :eek:

By the way, how do I get to Tweb?

Click here for Theology Web. Again, I can send you a bunch of names to look out for.
 
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Matthan

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aeroz19 said:
I've been asking these questions for a while now, but there has been no answer beyond the basic surface theology that I, being a Christian, already know. So I am asking these questions again, but in this forum this time.

Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?

Your premise is wrong. All men are sinners, without exception. Some are "big" sinners (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) Some are "small" sinners (just look around you the next time you are out in public). Regardless, all men are sinners. And, all men are doomed to eternal seperation from God because of their state of sin. It literally takes a miracle from God Himself to save them from that fate. That miracle is available to every single person, regardless of their (relative) state of sin. There is just one catch, though. They must obtain the miracle according to the instructions set forth by God. Nothing else will permit them to obtain it.

What does burning in hell for eternity accomplish?

That is God's plan. Only He knows why. However, remember that it was Him who originally gave life. He alone permitted life to exist for whatever period of time He determined. And only He has the right to end life. It is His right alone to control His creation in every aspect. So, to answer your second question, it accomplishes His will. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?

God needed to bring the new covenant to earth according to Jewish Law that He alone set forth. In order for Him to receive the "perfect" sacrifice, He required the Perfect Sacrificial Lamb. However, there is nothing "perfect" enough on earth. God had to send His perfect Lamb for the sacrifice. And, everything was accomplished according to His plan. Once again we may not be permitted to understand that plan, but our understanding is not any kind of requisite for God's activities.

If we're all doomed to hell, why did God give us such a fragile means of finding out such an eternally-important fact about our destinies: the Bible? The Bible's geocentric model has been disproven, it contains errors and contradictions, and is scientifically flawed if meant to be taken literally. We can't trust it. And on top of that, not all people in the world have a Bible. They only have an innate desire to believe in the existance of a god, and not specifically the Christian God. So, they are not really without excuse at all.

Fragile? Hardly, in my humble opinion. Fragile denotes changable or breakable, and the Bible is neither. It contains a few important instructions and a lot of examples, both good and bad. The lessons that Jesus gave us, as enscribed by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and others under the direct supervision of the Holy Spirit, all tell us the exact same thing. If we have faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, then we will receive the free gift of His grace to eternal salvation. God tells us that over and over again. It is His promise, and there is no power in Heaven or on earth that can change that. It is carved in the hardest stone ever created. It is anything but fragile.

As for those individuals who have never heard the truth from God, we will have to leave their destinies up to Him and His omniscience, won't we. Let Him consider their eternal fates. And, let us try our best to get His truth to them in any way we can (supporting missions, witnessing when and where we can, etc.).

How do we know that the Christian religion is the most accurate expression of God's revelation to humankind? If we had been born in the Middle East, for example, we would be making the same arguments for Allah and the Quran. So why is our religion different? What makes Christianity the "true" religion?

I asked myself that same question many years ago. So, I decided to check out history. Only one ethnic group in all the world claims to be God's chosen people. And, according to the Bible, God tells us they were His chosen people as well. So, I looked at their history. Were the Jews enslaved in Egypt? Yes, they were. And, their history, which was written by their historians for accuracy, and not for some political or other reasons, speaks for itself. Were they led out of captivity by Moses? Yes! Were they led by a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day, for 40 years? Yes. Did God part the Red Sea for their escape? Well, they were on one side, and ended up on the other, so I'd say Yes to that one, too. Did they receive manna and quail from some unknown source in the middle of the desert for 40 years? Yes! Did they conquer every single tribe in the Promised Land, despite being outnumbered? Oh, yes! Did God turn His back on them when they turned away from Him? Yes, and they ended up in captivity twice for that little bit of stupidity, too. But, He also brought them out of that same captivity, too! Okay, you can read all about Jewish history in the Old Testament, but I will jump to the New.

Did Jesus get baptized by John in Jordan? According to scribes working for God, Yes! And, did God say in an audible voice that Jesus was His Son, in whom He was well pleased? Everyone there heard Him say that, and there is not one bit of history that says it did not occur. So, I believe that He did. And that makes Jesus God's Son. Nuff said!

But there is a far more important aspect of Jesus' life to consider. I mentioned it above, and it is "belief." Either we believe that Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, or we do not. We make the choice, once we are old enough to make such choices. No one forces it on us (if they did, then it is not valid, and we have to make it for ourselves). So, either we believe, or we do not. That's it in a nutshell. And yes, you CAN take it or leave it.

Why do we trust the Bible as authentic/inspired/true?

See the previous answer!

Note: appeals to authority will not work. Anyone from any religion can stand there and warn me that unless I believe in their god or religion and stop doubting that I'll be doomed. But it's still illogical.

Appeals to authority? Hardly. No one will ever (or should never) force you to believe in God Almighty. That has been tried during the crusades, and the inquisition, and the reformation, and in countless other events, dogmas and creeds. It didn't work then, and it never will. God does not want "forced" love. He wants true love. He will not accept anything else.

Everything comes down to faith. Either you believe, or you don't. That is your choice alone to make. And, you will have to live (eternally) with your decision.

I just need lots of input from other people. These are the questions that have been swimming in my head since age 13, and I have not asked them until just in the past few weeks. I need to get past this and establish some solid answers.

I wish you well in your search. Feel free to PM me with any follow-up questions you might have. I am not a pastor, neither am I "trained" in theology. But, I will try to help you in any way that I can.

Matthan <J><
 
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aeroz19

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Matthan said:
That is God's plan. Only He knows why.

Unfortunately, so many are so easily satisfied with this simple answer. "No one knows, we just have to take it or leave it."

I asked myself that same question many years ago. So, I decided to check out history. Only one ethnic group in all the world claims to be God's chosen people. And, according to the Bible, God tells us they were His chosen people as well. So, I looked at their history. Were the Jews enslaved in Egypt? Yes, they were. And, their history, which was written by their historians for accuracy, and not for some political or other reasons, speaks for itself. Were they led out of captivity by Moses? Yes! Were they led by a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day, for 40 years? Yes. Did God part the Red Sea for their escape? Well, they were on one side, and ended up on the other, so I'd say Yes to that one, too. Did they receive manna and quail from some unknown source in the middle of the desert for 40 years? Yes! Did they conquer every single tribe in the Promised Land, despite being outnumbered? Oh, yes! Did God turn His back on them when they turned away from Him? Yes, and they ended up in captivity twice for that little bit of stupidity, too. But, He also brought them out of that same captivity, too! Okay, you can read all about Jewish history in the Old Testament, but I will jump to the New.

Did Jesus get baptized by John in Jordan? According to scribes working for God, Yes! And, did God say in an audible voice that Jesus was His Son, in whom He was well pleased? Everyone there heard Him say that, and there is not one bit of history that says it did not occur. So, I believe that He did. And that makes Jesus God's Son. Nuff said!

And so, your answer is, we know the Bible is authentic because it says it is! lol

But there is a far more important aspect of Jesus' life to consider. I mentioned it above, and it is "belief." Either we believe that Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, or we do not. We make the choice, once we are old enough to make such choices. No one forces it on us (if they did, then it is not valid, and we have to make it for ourselves). So, either we believe, or we do not. That's it in a nutshell. And yes, you CAN take it or leave it.

Yes, you certainly can. But you had better have darned good reasons.
 
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aeroz19 said:
  1. Why is the smallest sin deserving of eternal punishment in hell?
  1. It's not. Each punishment will fit the offense. Why would a "righteous" judge have the same punishment for every crime?
    aeroz19 said:
    [*]What does burning in hell for eternity accomplish?
    Nothing... There would have to eventually be an end of the burning for it to be a true punishment by definition of the word punishment.
    aeroz19 said:
    [*]Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?
    I'm not sure, but I thaught Jesus' death and resurrection was to show us in what manner we must live, and that our lives, as his is, are eternal.
    aeroz19 said:
    [*]If we're all doomed to hell, why did God give us such a fragile means of finding out such an eternally-important fact about our destinies: the Bible? The Bible's geocentric model has been disproven, it contains errors and contradictions, and is scientifically flawed if meant to be taken literally. We can't trust it. And on top of that, not all people in the world have a Bible. They only have an innate desire to believe in the existance of a god, and not specifically the Christian God. So, they are not really without excuse at all.
    I think God knows exactly what would happen to each type of person born here on Earth when reading the Bible. To every type, there is a different longing for spirituallity. Every difference in the Bible from other religeous text appeal to each of the different spirit types. Unfortunately, there's something in the Bible for lots of different types. Even for those puffed up with pride and who find joy in placing themselves above others, This type would dig THEMSELVES deeper into self condemnation. It all depends on whether a person has love in their heart for their fellow man or not. There are other religions that are very similar to Jesus' message of "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR" And who are we to say they are wrong, or not inspired by God?
    aeroz19 said:
    [*]How do we know that the Christian religion is the most accurate expression of God's revelation to humankind? If we had been born in the Middle East, for example, we would be making the same arguments for Allah and the Quran. So why is our religion different? What makes Christianity the "true" religion?
    We don't. Pride is a very powerful force. It makes us believe that we are the only ones with the real truth. Once human kind relinquishes foolish pride, we'll all be better off and realize that all the worlds religions have something cool to offer. The quran may have been a bad example, only because it claims it verifies the Old and New Testament.
    aeroz19 said:
    [*]Why do we trust the Bible as authentic/inspired/true?
    Because it's the only thing we people in the West have that fills our hunger for a spiritual sense of belonging.
 
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holyrokker

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Why did God need Jesus to suffer and shed blood as a prerequisite to forgiving us humans for our transgressions? Why couldn't God have forgiven us without any pain or suffering or blood or death?

There is no prerequisite for forgiveness. God's been in the business of forgiving sins since Adam and Eve.

According to Romans 3:25-26 it was to demonstrate God's justice
"He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

This is something that can't adequately be addressed in this forum.

An EXCELLENT book for detailed study is The Atonement by Albert Barnes (1860)
You can read it online - http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/4/BarnesAtonement/barnesindex.htm
 
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shernren

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About question no.2, it reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes comic I once read. I can't remember the exact dialogue, but it went something like Calvin asking himself (or Hobbes) "What if I could get into Heaven even if I was bad? ... if Heaven is a place for people who do good things then would I want to go to Heaven even if I could?"

What I believe is that Hell doesn't reflect what God does to people... it reflects what people choose to do to themselves by not letting God in. It's like, when someone has lived a life without God, that person is simply not ready for Heaven. No way the person is going to be able to live there! So Hell is the only option. And Hell may not literally be a place of fire and brimstone (although it likely is, if one reads the Bible super-literally) but it is the place of separation from God. So it is the logical conclusion of a life on earth that has already been lived separate from God...

And if you need help with questions of faith do read apologetical books like C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He has helped me a lot.
 
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