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Two more Italian priests sanctioned for claiming Francis is ‘anti-pope’

Michie

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ROME – Two clerics in Italy, one formerly a diocesan priest and the other a member of a religious order, have been sanctioned recently for the crime of schism, as both have publicly argued that Pope Francis was never validly elected and thus constitutes an “anti-pope.”

The Archdiocese of Sassari on the Italian island of Sardinia announced on Nov. 13 that Fernando Maria Cornet, a native Argentinian who was ordained to the priesthood in 1992 and who served in Sassari since 2011, has been dismissed from the clerical state by order of Pope Francis.

Meanwhile, reports also suggest that Father Giorgio Maria Faré has been dismissed from the Discalced Carmelites after a deadline imposed by the order’s leadership for renouncing his positions passed, and he too may soon be facing a laicization procedure.

Continued below.
 

fide

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ROME – Two clerics in Italy, one formerly a diocesan priest and the other a member of a religious order, have been sanctioned recently for the crime of schism, as both have publicly argued that Pope Francis was never validly elected and thus constitutes an “anti-pope.”

The Archdiocese of Sassari on the Italian island of Sardinia announced on Nov. 13 that Fernando Maria Cornet, a native Argentinian who was ordained to the priesthood in 1992 and who served in Sassari since 2011, has been dismissed from the clerical state by order of Pope Francis.

Meanwhile, reports also suggest that Father Giorgio Maria Faré has been dismissed from the Discalced Carmelites after a deadline imposed by the order’s leadership for renouncing his positions passed, and he too may soon be facing a laicization procedure.

Continued below.
I never thought I'd live to see a "pope" like this. All the many former Catholics I have known can (unrightly, and tragically) feel justified in their rejection of our Church because of the trail of nonChristian examples this "pope" has left in his wake. Yes, true to his own call to Catholics to "make a mess," when he was somehow placed on the Chair of Peter, he has made and continues to make a mess in the name of Christ Jesus! And that is the horror of it all.
 
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mourningdove~

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The actions of the current pope make it difficult for more traditional-minded lapsed Catholics to return to the Church. I suppose lapsed modernist Catholics may like his style. I wonder if there are any statistics available, showing how many lapsed Catholics have 'returned home' during his pontiff? (Has the Church grown or shrunk ... or stayed the same ... since 2013?)
 
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RileyG

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I would say he's an 'anti-pope' for different reasons. There's no free speech at the Vatican. Guess I'll get excommunicated.
Officially, he cannot be called an "anti-pope" regardless if his views were/are liberal or unorthodox. He was duly elected by the college of cardinals.

There were many, many bad Popes who were valid Popes.
 
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AveChristusRex

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The actions of the current pope make it difficult for more traditional-minded lapsed Catholics to return to the Church. I suppose lapsed modernist Catholics may like his style. I wonder if there are any statistics available, showing how many lapsed Catholics have 'returned home' during his pontiff? (Has the Church grown or shrunk ... or stayed the same ... since 2013?)
Not that I know of; however the actions of Paul VI till the present have made it difficult de jure to accept the pontificate. It truly has to do with the action of Vatican II and the fallout from that. According to Pope Leo XIII' Satis Cognitum #9: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.”

If one is [as I do] to assume that the Pontificates of Paul VI to present are ipso facto declared and already juridically deposed, but this real fact has not yet been juridically established and recognized in the universal Church, one may understand that the loss of Pontifical office is based primarily on the act, not the declaration. According to Pope Paul IV' Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio: "...or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void; [...]."

It does not have to be heresy per-se, as Pope Paul IV splits it into two: "has deviated from the Catholic Faith"..."or fallen into some heresy." Thus, if a Pontiff is to be contrary to the Magisterium, he is "null, invalid, and void" from the moment of his error. This [in the eyes of most Catholics] presents a dilemma:
  1. The Popes enjoy the supreme authority of the Church, and one is obliged to obey and submit while somewhat denouncing the said doctrines and reforms. This is the position of groups such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, aka sedeplenism.
  2. The Popes enjoy the supreme authority of the Church, but one should resist and openly reject the said doctrines and reforms and exercise an unauthorized apostolate to save souls. This is the position of the Society of Saint Pius X, known as the “Recognize and Resist” position.
  3. The Popes do not have the authority of Christ; they are not true popes and are already juridically deposed. This is the position of totalism, aka complete sedevacantism.
  4. The Popes do not have the authority of Christ, they are not true popes, but this real fact has not yet been juridically established and recognized in the universal Church. This is the solution proposed by the Thesis, sometimes referred to as material-formal sedevacantism or sedeprivationism [is also considered the formal foundation of sedeimpoundism].
None of these are correct, in my view, as you cannot summarize canonicity in such a way. While I look positively on the work of
Michel-Louis Guérard des Lauriers and his contemporaries [McKenna, Sanborn], I don't entirely accept sedeprivationism, nor do I accept sedevacantism predominantly due to the folks within such an area being outside of the Catholic faith for various reasons, such as diluting their faith with ideology, etc. I personally believe the Pontifical throne is materialiter sed non formaliter* [* being my definition of the matter or material aspect of the papacy being a literal occupation of the See (such as an occupying power would establish a puppet-state) of Rome], but
does not possess the power to call himself the formal Pontiff, nor to teach, rule, and sanctify the Church in Christ’s name, and as His vicar.

As fide posted: "The well-known Father Giorgio Maria Faré said in an October 13 sermon that he does not believe Francis is pope, arguing the resignation of Benedict XVI was invalid and thus Francis' election was illegitimate." We will see more clerics come to this position, however most will take the benevacantist theory instead of the sedeprivationist or sedevacantist views, because they wish to keep John Paul II as a saint in their hearts and minds, and would not consider his election to be spurious. I think this will continue over time, but we will see. :prayer:
 
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JSRG

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If one is [as I do] to assume that the Pontificates of Paul VI to present are ipso facto declared and already juridically deposed, but this real fact has not yet been juridically established and recognized in the universal Church, one may understand that the loss of Pontifical office is based primarily on the act, not the declaration. According to Pope Paul IV' Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio: "...or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void; [...]."

Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio was derogated in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Even prior to that, it was considered only to apply to those who had actually been formally judged to be heretics and was rarely if ever enforced. One can see easy evidence of this in the case of John Henry Newman and Henry Manning, famous 19th century Anglican converts to Catholicism who despite undeniably having deviated from the Catholic faith (being Anglicans and all that), were raised to the rank of bishop and cardinal; one cannot argue that they are off the hook due to rejecting their former errors, because Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio does not offer it as an exception. This goes into more detail on it:

Or to offer the summary from it (slightly edited by me):

1. The bull does not concern the loss of office due to post election heresy, but rather to the invalidity of an election due to pre-election heresy.

2. For the bull to have any legal or practical effect, the office holder would have to admit to pre-election heresy, or the pre-election heresy would have to be legally established by the Church.

3. The bull itself was disciplinary; its teachings were never enforced; and it was
derogated (rendered obsolete) by the 1917 Code.

4. The penal sanctions contained in the bull were considered so unjust and problematic that those who rejected papal infallibility at the time of the First Vatican Council, brought the bull out from obscurity and used to “prove” that the pope is not infallible and hence that the Church erred in defining it as a dogma.

5. In response to the above objection, the proponents of Papal Infallibility did not attempt to defend the bull itself, but instead proved that it did not meet the conditions for Papal Infallibility set forth by Vatican I. Consequently, the problematic aspects do not touch on the question of papal infallibility.


So Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio appears to have no authority today.
 
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AveChristusRex

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So Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio appears to have no authority today.
On: "considered only to apply to those who had actually been formally judged to be heretics," please notice that Paul IV not only teaches that the heretical cleric loses his office without declaration; but he also teaches that Catholics “shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs.

You also mentioned the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which for canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law on loss of office without declaration, it gives a footnote (in the original Latin version) to Pope Paul IV’s bull, it was thus not derogated at all:
Canon 188.4, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “There are certain causes which effect the tacit (silent) resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of the law, and hence is effective without any declaration. These causes are… (4) if he has publicly fallen away from the faith.
The important matter here is "without any declaration." All of this applies to the time period before any declaration. Moreover, St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30, speaking of a claimant to the Papal Office: "For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is 'ipso facto' deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus 3:10), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ."

I again note BEFORE ANY DECLARATORY SENTENCE, which seems to be contra "had actually been formally judged to be heretics." Morevoer while yes it "was rarely if ever enforced," its use was not given for a long while, because most Papal controversies prior to this period in time, as most issues came down to cases of simony or cases lifted by ecclesia supplet, which supplies the necessary grace and authority to recognize the papacy as valid once someone has been elected and accepted as pope, ensuring continuity in the office despite the irregularities surrounding their election or personal actions that have no basis on the matter of the Pontifical Office.

Moreover, if a Pontiff (such as Benedict IX) commits an act unrelated to his official duties and pertaining solely to his personal life, he [because these acts fall outside the moral and lawful boundaries of the faith] operates outside the bounds of religio licita, and thus, his office cannot be implicated in actions of immorality or other sins, as his personal sins do not implicate or compromise the divine authority or integrity of the Office. I see it in the same regard as that of the Thesis of Cassiciacum, that being that a Pontiff who is elected with the use of simony is ‘materialiter sed non formaliter,’ that is, "materially but not formally," the reigning Pontiff, who is not in possession of the power to rule, teach, or sanctify but is nonetheless the valid claimant of the Papacy.

Contrarily, as stated above, ecclesia supplet does not operate in matters of a public abrogation of dogma, and thus his ipso facto declaration is is absolute (est absoluta), as his dilect is public, according to Canon 2197.1 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law: “A Crime is public: (1) if it is already commonly known or the circumstances are such as to lead to the conclusion that it can and will easily become so…” If it were the case that an erroneous Pontiff [that being contra Magisterium] was to be declared first, it would allow the true Church to designate a false pope [and on the other hand, if it is not the true Church, then a false Church could designate a true Pope, so it isn't black or white], and this would be against all matters of form and canon, plus abrogating Our Lord's Matthew 16:18 declaration.

Furthermore I look to 2 Thessalonians 2:3 on the matter of ἀποστασία (apostasia, meaning apostasy or deviation from faith) equaling declaration: "No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the ἀποστασία (apostasia) shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction..." St. Paul equates the ἀποστασία (apostasia) to the reveal of the man of lawlessness, but he notes that no one should deceive you in any way [though he is announcing in this case, I use it to mean what is written], meaning that a Pontiff should not deceive you in any way, and thus an erroneous Pontiff could not teach and sanctify while in error, waiting to be declared.

Moreover, Pope Leo XIII, in Satis Cognitum #9, says: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.” He later states [Satis Cognitum #15], in relation to his previous statement “No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.” If anyone was to recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine, he would be outside the Church; and as such it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church. To end this point, I note St. Antoninus: "In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off. A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." (Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub.)

On "John Henry Newman and Henry Manning," renunciation of previous extra-magisterial beliefs is a valid penance, outlined in Canon 2248:
Canon 2248 §§1-3, 1917 Code of Canon Law:
§1. Any censure, once contracted, is lifted only by legitimate absolution.
§2. Absolution cannot be denied once a delinquent withdraws from contumacy according to the norm of Canon 2242, §3; one absolving from a censure can, if the matter requires it, impose an appropriate vindicative penalty or penance for the committed delict.
§3. A censure, removed by a delivered absolution, does not revive, except in the case where a burden imposed under pain of reincidence has not been fulfilled.
Newman renounced his Anglican faith multiple times, and spoke on It directly in Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864) and Edmund Purcell's Life of Cardinal Manning, Archbishop of Westminster (1896). In saying "one cannot argue that they are off the hook due to rejecting their former errors," you are equating the College of Cardinals to the Pontifical Office, which is not the case. For example, Liber Gomorrhianus states that Pope Benedict IX, repented later in life, seeking forgiveness and re-entry into communion with the Church, but was not returned to his office. St. Bartholomew of Grottaferrata seconded this, saying he was penitent and turned away from the sins he committed as Pontiff. Thus, though a Pontiff may lose his office due to a dilect of heresy, a Cardinal is not given the same treatment. In fact, the Latin for cum ex apostolatus officio is 'by virtue of the Apostolic Office,' and thus was speaking on the Papal Office specifically.
 
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AveChristusRex

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I want to make a note in relation to my statement on simoniac Pontificates: they are valid assumptions to the Papacy, but can/are to be given trais later to divulge the necessary punishment. According to the the ‘Decretals of Gregory IX,’ the offender, whether simoniacus (the perpetrator of a simoniacal transaction) or simoniace promotus (the beneficiary of a simoniacal transaction), was liable to deprivation of his benefice and deposition from orders if a secular priest, or to confinement in a stricter monastery if a regular. The innocent simoniace promotus was, apart from dispensation, liable to the same penalties as though he were guilty.

In fact, in the Code of Canon Law, Canon 149.3 notes that: "Provision of an office made as a result of simony is invalid by the law itself." Thus, we can now clearly see that the sin of simony results in not only a major excommunication from the Church [and therefore from the graces associated with the Church] but an automatic excommunication for the simoniacus and simoniace promotus, respectively. The reason for there to be a legal Pontificate while the sin of simony is on the head of the Pontiff is a matter of ‘validity’ versus ‘legitimacy.’

For one, ‘validity’ refers to whether someone truly holds the office, regardless of the manner of their election. A Pope is considered valid if he is recognized by the Church as having properly assumed the Papacy, even if there were illicit or sinful actions [such as simony] involved in the process. 'Legitimacy,' however, refers to whether someone holds the office in accordance with Canon Law. Note that, in the case of simoniacal papal elections, validity does not necessarily mean licit. A simoniacal election is gravely illicit, but the Church distinguishes between illicitness [a violation of Canon Law] and the validity of the election itself. For example, if you subscribe to the Sedevacantist position, one may posit that John XXIII, in his election, was elected with many controversies and Canons being disregarded, but properly assumed the Papacy anyhow [that is unless you subscribe to the Siri Thesis.]

However, after the promulgation of heresy in the Pontifical Office did John XXIII’s Papacy become invalid from the act of convocation of Vatican II, but is considered illicit from the moment of his election, and subsequently those who followed in his work on the Second Vatican Council or those who subscribe to the regulations therein impose the same crime upon themselves. We can see, with the example of John XXIII, that an illicit election yet valid assumption of the Papacy does not disregard your Papacy, as ecclesia supplet could still apply. Theologically and canonically, this principle allows the Church to recognize the papacy as valid once someone has been elected and accepted as pope, ensuring continuity in the office despite the irregularities surrounding their election.

Now, I will try to give adequate but short answers to your summary:

1. Yes, cum ex apostolatus officio is dealing specifically in the matters of a Papal election, but there are many other examples of the same reality being posited, here are a few:
  • Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself… [T]hey must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the truth of the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity.” (Maroto, Institutiones I.C. 2:784)
  • Appointment to the Office of the Primacy. 1. What is required by divine law for this appointment… Also required for validity is that the one elected be a member of the Church; hence, heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are excluded.” (Coronata, Institutiones I.C. 1:312)
  • “All those who are not impeded by divine law or by an invalidating ecclesiastical law are validly eligible [to be elected pope]. Wherefore, a male who enjoys use of reason sufficient to accept election and exercise jurisdiction, and who is a true member of the Church can be validly elected, even though he be only a layman. Excluded as incapable of valid election, however, are all women, children who have not yet arrived at the age of discretion, those afflicted with habitual insanity, heretics and schismatics.” (Wernz-Vidal, Jus Can. 2:415)
2. This is if cum ex apostolatus officio was the only example of imposition of the Pontifical Office by divine law due to a deviation from the Magisterium. Moreover in saying "...the pre-election heresy would have to be legally established by the Church" implicates that a Pontiff can lead individuals astray through confusion, which is contra St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Book II, Chapter 30: “A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.” St. Bellarmine does not say "first judgment, then casement of office," it is in fact the opposite. One automatically ceases to be pope and head ipso facto of their error, but can be judged and punished by the Church at a later time [note Bellarmine does not consider a Pontiff to be able to hold office if he is in error, i.e., Cadaver Synod] when it breeds necessity.

3. The idea that "bull itself was disciplinary" would be the case if it was not per-se ex cathedra* [* being the fact that Paul VI explicitly invokes his authority as supreme pontiff to issue the decree], and even then, it is to be held in perpetuity. I answered your claim that "its teachings were never enforced; and it was derogated (rendered obsolete) by the 1917 Code" in the first message.

4. Misusing this document to argue against Vatican I’s definition of infallibility reflects an agenda rather than a coherent theological argument. As stated above, a Pontiff can not error in an ex cathedra statement by divine law [unless that Pontiff and his subsequent cabinet were outside of the grace of the one true Church, and thus no longer protected by the Holy Ghost], so to claim that the Church erred in defining it as a dogma is contrary to the Magisterium remaining infallible, perfect, unabridged, and perpetual.

5. I don't really know what to say to this other than what I stated in #4, as it seems like a continuation of the same thought.

Sorry if this is too much, lot to say, God bless. :heart:
 
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JSRG

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On: "considered only to apply to those who had actually been formally judged to be heretics," please notice that Paul IV not only teaches that the heretical cleric loses his office without declaration; but he also teaches that Catholics “shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs.

Addressed at the link I offered.

Second, the judgment and determination that the one elected to the papacy fell into heresy prior to his election, is not based upon the private judgment of individual Catholics, who personally believe a sin of heresy was committed before the election. The judgment would have to be rendered by the proper authorities before the election would be rendered null. As St. Thomas teaches, a public judgment must come from the public authority. Cum Ex Apostolatus was a disciplinary decree that attached a retroactive penalty to one who was authoritatively judged by the Church (not by private individuals) to have deviated from the faith prior to their promotion or election.

This was confirmed by two canonists who lived at the time the Bull was issued. The canonist, Maurcus Antobius Borghesius, said “the Bull [Cum Ex Apostolatus] includes only those who were caught, convicted or confessed to have fallen into heresy.” The canonist, Antonio Massa, teaches the same: “The Bull of Pope Paul does not prescribe it in the manner of one having been discharged, unless he being taken up in a crime either confessed of his own will or was convicted by others” (nec bulla Pauli pontificis modo defuncti id disponit, nisi ille in crimine deprehensus vel sponte confessus vel ab aliis convictus.) For the bull to have any legal or practical effect, the pope would have to admit to being guilty of pre-election heresy, or he would have to be found guilty by the Church.


You also mentioned the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which for canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law on loss of office without declaration, it gives a footnote (in the original Latin version) to Pope Paul IV’s bull, it was thus not derogated at all:

The important matter here is "without any declaration." All of this applies to the time period before any declaration. Moreover, St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30, speaking of a claimant to the Papal Office: "For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is 'ipso facto' deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus 3:10), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ."

I again note BEFORE ANY DECLARATORY SENTENCE, which seems to be contra "had actually been formally judged to be heretics." Morevoer while yes it "was rarely if ever enforced," its use was not given for a long while, because most Papal controversies prior to this period in time, as most issues came down to cases of simony or cases lifted by ecclesia supplet, which supplies the necessary grace and authority to recognize the papacy as valid once someone has been elected and accepted as pope, ensuring continuity in the office despite the irregularities surrounding their election or personal actions that have no basis on the matter of the Pontifical Office.

This was also addressed in the link:

Faced with the proof that Cum Ex Apostolatus was abrogated when the 1917 Code came into force, some Sedevacantists will argue that its penal legislation was not mere based on ecclesiastical law, but on Divine law, and therefore remains in force. They will then point to the fact that Cum Ex Apostolatus is referenced as a footnote to canon 188, §4 (1917 Code), and claim that this proves its automatic penalties are still in effect. This argument is erroneous for the following reasons.

First, there is no Divine Law (nor has there even been an ecclesiastical law) teaching that a prelate who falls into the sin of heresy, and is judged by private judgment to be a heretic, automatically loses his office. As we saw above, the impediment would have to be legally proven before it would have any juridical effect. Without being legally established, the titulus coloratus would suffice for the acts of the office holder to remain valid.

Second, as we saw in Chapter Eight, canon 188, §4 applies to clerics validly elected to office, who publicly defect from the Faith by joining a non-Catholic sect (or publicly apostatizing) after being elected, whereas the penalties contained in Cum Ex Apostolatus pertain to pre-election heresy. Cum Ex did not teach that a validly elected cleric who later “deviates from the faith” automatically loses office. So the penalties contained in Cum Ex Apostolatus and canon 188, §4 are clearly not the same.

Third, footnotes are not part of the Church’s law (they have no authority in themselves), and are often cited (by editors) to show legislative history related to certain canons. As applied here, the footnote to Cum Ex Apostolatus is nothing more than a reference to prior legislation which prevented certain clerics from holding office in the Church. The purpose is to simply provide some legislative precedent for the current legislation, not to affirm a mythical “Divine law” that prevents heretics from holding office based upon individual private judgment.
Fourth, it is certainly not a matter of Divine law that the election of a person who had previously deviated from the faith is null and void. The great Cardinal Manning, for example, not only deviated from the faith he received at baptism, but he went so far as to become a pseudo-bishop of the Anglican sect. Yet, in spite of this, he was later received into the Catholic Church and raised to the office of bishop and then Cardinal. The same is true with Cardinal Newman. This elevation to one of the highest offices in the Church occurred in spite of irrefutable proof that they had both deviated from the faith prior to their elevation. Now, if someone claims that Cum ex Apostolatus' teaching concerning pre-election heresy does not apply in the case of one who later renounces his errors, he will have to point to the section of the bull that refers to this exception. Yet this section will not be found, because it does not exist.


On "John Henry Newman and Henry Manning," renunciation of previous extra-magisterial beliefs is a valid penance, outlined in Canon 2248:

Newman renounced his Anglican faith multiple times, and spoke on It directly in Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864) and Edmund Purcell's Life of Cardinal Manning, Archbishop of Westminster (1896). In saying "one cannot argue that they are off the hook due to rejecting their former errors," you are equating the College of Cardinals to the Pontifical Office, which is not the case. For example, Liber Gomorrhianus states that Pope Benedict IX, repented later in life, seeking forgiveness and re-entry into communion with the Church, but was not returned to his office. St. Bartholomew of Grottaferrata seconded this, saying he was penitent and turned away from the sins he committed as Pontiff. Thus, though a Pontiff may lose his office due to a dilect of heresy, a Cardinal is not given the same treatment. In fact, the Latin for cum ex apostolatus officio is 'by virtue of the Apostolic Office,' and thus was speaking on the Papal Office specifically.
But Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio is not speaking on the Papal Office specifically. You previously quoted "...or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void; [...]." But the quote you offered leaves out some important material immediately prior. Here it is in a little more context:

"If ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void."

This isn't talking specifically about the pope. It only mentions the Roman Pontiff to emphasize that it applies to any bishop and any cardinal and any legate (heck, even the quote you offered included the mention of cardinals). So yes, this applies to Newman and Manning. It is not "the Papal Office specifically."
 
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AveChristusRex

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I know the title of sedevacantist is not meant for me in this: "Faced with the proof that Cum Ex Apostolatus was abrogated when the 1917 Code came into force, some Sedevacantists will argue that its penal legislation was not mere based on ecclesiastical law, but on Divine law, and therefore remains in force," as I am not a sedevacantist. :hug:

In relation to your quote that "teaching that a prelate who falls into the sin of heresy, and is judged by private judgment to be a heretic, automatically loses his office," I have to wonder if we are misinterpreting one another: I mean to say that a Pontiff loses his Office [i.e. power to teach, rule, and sanctify], but may hold a material office as a Council has not formally condemned them, as I hope Salza is not rebutting Bellarmine in saying "the impediment would have to be legally proven before it would have any juridical effect," as I don't suspect that was his intention. If we are to separate juridical [relating to the law and its administration, i.e., materially holding the seat] from ipso facto [the power to teach, rule, and sanctify], then Salza would be correct, being that those definitions are met; but if Salza is saying that an erroneous Pontiff could teach ex cathedra something that leads the faithful astray, only for this to be recanted by a later council and his Papacy withdrawn; it seems too idealistic to me. Moreover, this seems [to me] like the error of Conciliarism that Pope Eugene IV rivaled against during the Council of Basel.

The matter of Maurcus Antobius Borghesius is semantical, as what he defines as "caught" could mean many different things to many different people. However, this, moreover, does not answer the other examples I showed, and seems to be primarily against that Bull specifically. In saying "Without being legally established, the titulus coloratus would suffice for the acts of the office holder to remain valid," as Salza stated "Sedevacantists correctly maintain that Divine Law expels a formal heretic from the Church without further declaration." Moreover, while a Pontiff can summon a lower cleric to a trial for heresy, no one can do the same to a Pontiff; for there is no authority on Earth higher than a reigning Pontiff. Take these three examples:
  • Pope St. Nicholas, epistle (8), Proposueramus quidem: “… Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, not by the people will the judge be judged… ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.’” (Denz. 330)
  • Pope St. Leo IX, In terra pax hominibus, Chap. 11: “By passing judgment on the great See, concerning which it is not permitted any man to pass judgment, you have received anathema from all the Fathers of the venerable Councils…” (Denz. 352)
  • Pope St. Leo IX, In terra pax hominibus, Chap. 32: “… As the hinge while remaining immoveable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.’” (Denz. 353)
  • St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Book II, Chap. 29: “Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him.”
In particular:
Canon 1556, 1917 Code of Canon Law, On trials in general: “The First See is judged by no one.”
The Pope cannot be tried or subjected to examination, nor can he be deposed by a declaration from any cleric or council, this is [as I stated earlier] pure conciliarism, as the faithful would be forced to renounce their obedience to a Pontiff, hence they pass judgment on the judgment of the Apostolic See. Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, Sess. 4, Chap. 3: “And since the Roman Pontiff is at the head of the universal Church by the divine right of apostolic primacy, We teach and declare also that he is the supreme judge of the faithful [cf. n.1500 ], and that in all cases pertaining to ecclesiastical examination recourse can be had to his judgment [cf. n. 466 ]; moreover, that the judgment of the Apostolic See, whose authority is not surpassed, is to be disclaimed by no one, nor is anyone permitted to pass judgment on its judgment [cf. n.330 ff.]. Therefore, they stray from the straight path of truth who affirm that it is permitted to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an ecumenical Council, as to an authority higher than the Roman Pontiff.”

You cannot pass judgement on the Apostolic See, as Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, said: “Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: "The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man" [1 Cor 2:15].” This, thus, only permits divine law to judge the Pontiff:
  • Vermeersch, I. Creusen: "The power of the Roman Pontiff ceases by death, free resignation (which is valid without need for any acceptance, c. 221), certain and unquestionably perpetual insanity, and notorious heresy. “ (Epitome Iuris Canonici. Rome: Dessain 1949.) 340.
Salza says that "If a claimant to the papal throne is suspected of heresy, the common good of the Church would always require a declaration of said heresy,” and states that “While canon 188.4 says the office becomes vacant when one publicly defects from the Faith, canon 2314.2 requires formal warnings followed by the obstinate refusal to heed the warnings before the public defection can be established;” but truly the canon says:
Canon 2314.1-2, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic: Unless they respect warnings, they are deprived of benefice, dignity, pension, office, or other duty that they have in the Church, they are declared infamous, and [if] clerics, with the warning being repeated, [they are] deposed.”
Notice that he admits canon 188.4 teaches that the office becomes vacant without a declaration. And, as I said earlier, Canon 2314.2 is not addressing the spiritual possession of the office, which is lost without declaration (canon 188.4); but rather it’s addressing the physical possession of the office. That’s proven by the fact that the canon mentions pension and benefice in the same context. Therefore, it’s certain a heretic cannot govern in the Church.

In regards to Cardinals Newman and Manning, again, this is if they did not repent of their heresy, as even the punishments of cum ex apostolatus officio are annulled if one repents of their error, according to Canon 2248 §1:
Canon 2248 §1, 1917 Code of Canon Law: Any censure, once contracted, is lifted only by legitimate absolution.
Thus, [and through the aforementioned examples of recantations of their Anglicanism] they cannot be given the punishments of cum ex apostolatus officio, as they would only take effect if Manning or Newman did not repent of their Anglicanism, which is not possible. Finally, in regards to Salza saying "no one can know when their is an invalid Pontiff," he later said this: "I am not saying Catholics can never know if someone is a heretic without a declaration from the Church." He also says cum ex apostolatus officio would apply in the event of material heresy: "A declaration of heresy for “the common good” of the Church in such case would be unnecessary (although it would most likely still be given), and canon 188.4 and Cum Ex would apply.” If an erroneous Pontiff (one who denies or deviates from the faith) could be the head inside the Church, then the dogma that the Church is one in faith (as in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic) would be false.

Moreover, if his external actions show deviation from the Magisterium, then they are ipso facto excommunicated. St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. IV, c. 9, no. 15: "Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, went over to Felix, whom they knew [then] to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly [merito] be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple [simpliciter], and condemn him as a heretic.”

They also had the ability to PHYSICALLY remove Liberius from the possession of Catholic buildings in Rome, after it was recognized WITHOUT A DECLARATION that he was a non-pope. St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30, speaking of a claimant to the Papal Office: "For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is 'ipso facto' deposedwhich means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ."
 
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Markie Boy

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The actions of the current pope make it difficult for more traditional-minded lapsed Catholics to return to the Church. I suppose lapsed modernist Catholics may like his style. I wonder if there are any statistics available, showing how many lapsed Catholics have 'returned home' during his pontiff? (Has the Church grown or shrunk ... or stayed the same ... since 2013?)

This and another post above about non-Catholics that left the Church have something in common.

Conservative protestants look at Francis and want nothing to do with his stuff.

Conservative Catholics want nothing to do with his stuff.

Maybe God will use him somehow to bring us back together?
 
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mourningdove~

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This and another post above about non-Catholics that left the Church have something in common.

Conservative protestants look at Francis and want nothing to do with his stuff.

Conservative Catholics want nothing to do with his stuff.

Maybe God will use him somehow to bring us back together?
I don't see that happening, but the thought of true unity in Christ is always an appealing one to me.
I expect we will see it in heaven ...
 
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Markie Boy

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I don't see it either honestly - but it's nice to see Christians unite - there is something special when it happens.

Last year our local library starting to bring in books that had bad sexual content and gender confusion for kids! The library board meeting was packed. And we saw Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, and Charismatics all united to fight against what they all agreed was evil. It was good to see!

Honestly though - unity is probably wishful thinking this side of Heaven.
 
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