Threshing Floor of Atad?

[daq]

Goren haAtad - "Threshing Floor of the Thorn", ("the threshingfloor of Atad", KJV and most translations).

Genesis 50:7-11 KJV
7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,
8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house: only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds, they left in the land of Goshen.
9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen: and it was a very great company.
10 And they came to the threshingfloor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation: and he made a mourning for his father seven days.
11 And when the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, saw the mourning in the floor of Atad, they said, This is a grievous mourning to the Egyptians: wherefore the name of it was called Abelmizraim, which is beyond Jordan.

If you read the majority of the commentators on the location of Goren haAtad there is one primary thing they prove altogether as one: the location cannot be known for sure by the wording in the text because one cannot tell for sure even which side of the river the place is located.

Genesis 50:10 Commentaries: When they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond the Jordan, they lamented there with a very great and sorrowful lamentation; and he observed seven days mourning for his father.

This may actually be an account written by a firsthand witness, such as Yoseph himself, or perhaps he had a personal scribe, (being Pharaoh's Vizier this is likely). In such a case the "other side of the Yarden" may indeed be from the perspective of the writer, and the funeral procession surely went around the Salt Sea, on the eastern side, the long way around, so as to approach the land of Kanaan from the eastern side of the river. Then we read that the Kanaanites saw this wailing at Goren haAtad and therefore they called the place Abel Mitzraim, the mounring (place) of Egypt (or the Egyptians). The Kanaanites witnessed this great occasion? The Kananites dwelt on the western side of the river, in Kanaan, not on the eastern side of the river.

Recently, while looking up the general location of "Bethany beyond the Yarden" and its surrounding topography, on Google maps, I took a look southward in the area of Qumran. I was immediately stunned by what I saw on the satellite map.

Do you see what I see?

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Could this location, now known by the Arabic name Khirbet Quran, actually be Goren haAtad?

The Threshing Floor of the Thorn?

Hmmmmmm ......................................... ???

 

[HARK!]

Is not the Wilderness beyond the Jordan Valley?

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

File:Sapsaphas Madaba.jpg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1852 Philip Map of Palestine

Notice the words Wilderness and Betharabah.

I have another old map that is similar, 1863 Tanner Maps of Palestine.

These are not the only examples that I have of the names on maps being changed in recent history, concerning Biblical locations. The practice seems to be widespread.

 

[HARK!]

Recently, while looking up the general location of "Bethany beyond the Yarden" a

I saved the Wikipedia page to my hard drive; and I'm having difficulty locating it online again (as a side note, I did save the link to the Philip Map that I posted; but the link no longer works) :

John 1:28: either Bethabara or Bethany​

Different ancient manuscripts containing the Gospel of John use two different names, either Bethabara or Bethany, for the place where John was baptising "with flowing water" and where he named Jesus (Yeshua) "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."(John 1:28-29)

According to the King James Version (following Textus Receptus of the New Testament, which follows the New York and Moscow uncials, corrected forms of Ephraemi and Athos, along with uncial fragments from St Petersburg, Paris, minuscule 1, and family 13, backed up by Eusebius, Cyril, some Byzantine texts and lectionaries, and the Curetonian Old Syriac, Aramaic Peshitta, Armenian, and Georgian manuscripts, among others),[3] "Bethabara" is the place where John the Baptist baptized those who came to hear him preach. The word only appears once in the New Testament, at John 1:28, and is used in modern texts based on the King James Version, in the Geneva Bible and in the Jubilee Bible 2000.[4]

However, the same verse in the Revised Version, the New International Version and the English Standard Version reads "Bethany".[4] It is distinguished in some text versions from the Bethany of Lazarus and his sisters with a footnote stating that these are distinct locations.[5]

The reading Bethabara became current owing to the advocacy of both Origen (3rd century)[6] and John Chrysostom (4th century),[7] and that same Bethabara is attested in both the 6th-century Madaba Map[8] and in the Jewish Talmud.[9]

G. A. Smith suggests in his "Atlas of the Historical Geography of the Holy Land" (HGHL; 1915) that Bethany (house of the ship) and Bethabara (house of the ford) are names for the same place.

Bethabara is also mentioned in the writings of The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi (1 Nephi 10:9).

 

[daq]

Is not the Wilderness beyond the Jordan Valley?

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

View attachment 350956


View attachment 350957

File:Sapsaphas Madaba.jpg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 350959

1852 Philip Map of Palestine

Notice the words Wilderness and Betharabah.

I have another old map that is similar, 1863 Tanner Maps of Palestine.

These are not the only examples that I have of the names on maps being changed in recent history, concerning Biblical locations. The practice seems to be widespread.

This is great, I would be particularly interested in the second map which shows Beth-Arabah almost directly due south from Yericho, which would place it in the general vicinity of what is now called, from the modern Arabic name, Khirbet Qumran.

There were three towns in this immediate vicinity of the wilderness of Yhudah mentioned in Jos 15:61, Beth-Arabah, Middin, (to measure, to mete out), and Sekakah. One of these towns, either Middin or Sekakah, is called Ainon in the LXX, (Αινων, plural, springs, the same as in John 3:23).

Middin - BDB

מִדִּין (middı̂yn)
BDB Definition: Middin = “measures”
1) one of the 6 cities of Judah located in the wilderness
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a variation for H4080
Total KJV Occurrences: 1
middin, 1
Jos 15:61

Measures, from H4055 med/mad, see also H4060 middah and H4058 madad, to measure, to mete out, (the statement in the above entry, "a variation of H4080 [Midyan]", is probably erroneous). See particularly Psalm 60:6 and the double affirmation in Psalm 108:7.

Bible Map: Middin

(Commentary included in the above link).

Middin, being the second city written in Joshua 15:61, and also the second city in the LXX called Ainon, was very likely therefore the same place known today as Ein Feshka. At Ain Feshka two fountains have been discovered, and thus it was "well watered" in those days even unto now, for they have set up a nature preserve for this place, (see the Wikipedia article linked below).

Ein Freshkhah is the place known in the times of the Prophet Ezekiel as Ein-Eglaim, "Fountain of the Two Calves", likely because it was two primary fountains even as it remains to this day. The water from these two fountains went down toward the Salt Sea, through the arabah, (the muddy or sandy shore which comprises the shoreline of the Salt Sea), and emptied into the Salt Sea. Thus arabah is used not only for the regions immediately north and south of the Salt Sea but for some of the environs which make up the shoreline of the Salt Sea in the areas where it isn't cliffs abutting the sea.

From the link above:

MIDDIN
mid'-in (middin; in GB, [Greek Bible] Ainon, "springs"): One of the six cities in the wilderness of Judah (Joshua 15:61). There are not many possible sites. The Hebrew name may possibly survive in Khirbet Mird, a very conspicuous site with many ancient cisterns overlooking the plateau el Bukea`, above which it towers to a height of 1,000 ft.; it is the Mons Mardes of early Christian pilgrims; the existing remains are Byzantine. It is a site of great natural strength and was clearly once a place of some importance. The Greek reading Ainon, "place of springs," suggests the neighborhood of the extensive oasis of `Ain Feshkhah at the northwest corner of the Dead Sea where there are at Kh. Kumram remains of buildings and a rock-cut aqueduct.

Ein Eglaim - Ain Feshkha:

Ezekiel 47:10 - Pulpit Commentary:
Englaim, עֵין עֶגְלַיִם, signifying "Fountain of two calves," was located by Jerome, who cars [calls] it En Gallim, at the northern extremity of the Dead Sea, and is usually identified with the modern 'Ain Feshkhah, or "Fountain of mist," at the northern end of the west coast, where the ruins of houses and a small tower have been discovered (Robinson, 'Bibl. Res.,' 2:220).

Ein Feshkha - Wikipedia:

Ein Feshkha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[HARK!]

This is great, I would be particularly interested in the second map which shows Beth-Arabah almost directly due south from Yericho, which would place it in the general vicinity of what is now called, from the modern Arabic name, Khirbet Qumran.

I found a even higher resolution copy here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/1852_Philip_Map_of_Palestine_-_Israel_-_Holy_Land_-_Geographicus_-_Palestine-philip-1852.jpg

I found it through this page. It will take me hours and hours to explore all of these great maps:

Category:Old maps of the Tribes of Israel - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[daq]

I saved the Wikipedia page to my hard drive; and I'm having difficulty locating it online again (as a side note, I did save the link to the Philip Map that I posted; but the link no longer works) :

John 1:28: either Bethabara or Bethany​

Different ancient manuscripts containing the Gospel of John use two different names, either Bethabara or Bethany, for the place where John was baptising "with flowing water" and where he named Jesus (Yeshua) "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."(John 1:28-29)

According to the King James Version (following Textus Receptus of the New Testament, which follows the New York and Moscow uncials, corrected forms of Ephraemi and Athos, along with uncial fragments from St Petersburg, Paris, minuscule 1, and family 13, backed up by Eusebius, Cyril, some Byzantine texts and lectionaries, and the Curetonian Old Syriac, Aramaic Peshitta, Armenian, and Georgian manuscripts, among others),[3] "Bethabara" is the place where John the Baptist baptized those who came to hear him preach. The word only appears once in the New Testament, at John 1:28, and is used in modern texts based on the King James Version, in the Geneva Bible and in the Jubilee Bible 2000.[4]

However, the same verse in the Revised Version, the New International Version and the English Standard Version reads "Bethany".[4] It is distinguished in some text versions from the Bethany of Lazarus and his sisters with a footnote stating that these are distinct locations.[5]

The reading Bethabara became current owing to the advocacy of both Origen (3rd century)[6] and John Chrysostom (4th century),[7] and that same Bethabara is attested in both the 6th-century Madaba Map[8] and in the Jewish Talmud.[9]

G. A. Smith suggests in his "Atlas of the Historical Geography of the Holy Land" (HGHL; 1915) that Bethany (house of the ship) and Bethabara (house of the ford) are names for the same place.

Bethabara is also mentioned in the writings of The Book of Mormon prophet Nephi (1 Nephi 10:9).

The following video gives a history of the discovery of Bethany beyond Yarden, (or perhaps Yordan), which essentially proves that the Madaba map is mistaken in regards to "Bethabara" because, for one, it is on the wrong side or the river according to the map itself.

I found the video here:

Baptism Site – Bethany Beyond the Jordan

www.baptismsite.com

Some say that Bethany means "Date House" but I don't think so.

Mickelson's:
G963 Βηθανία Bethania (beeth-a-niy'-a) n/l.
1. date-house.
2. Beth-any, a place in Israel.
[of Chaldee origin]
KJV: Bethany

Thayer's Lexicon:
Βηθανία Βηθανίας, ἡ (עֲנִיָּה בֵּית house of depression or misery (cf. B. D. American edition)), Bethany;
1. a town or village beyond the Mount of Olives, fifteen furlongs from Jerusalem: John 11:1, 18; John 12:1; Matthew 21:17; Matthew 26:6; Luke 19:29 (here WH give the accusative Βηθανία (see their Appendix, p. 160), cf. Tr marginal reading); ; Mark 11:1, 11; Mark 14:3; now a little Arab hamlet, of from 20 to 30 families, calledel-'Aziriyeh orel-'Azir (the Arabic name of Lazarus); cf. Robinson i. 431f; (BB. DD. under the word).
2. a town or village on the east bank of the Jordan, where John baptized: John 1:28 L T Tr WH (see the preceding word). But Origen, although confessing that in his day nearly all the manuscripts read ἐν Βηθανία, declares that when he journeyed through those parts he did not find any place of that name, but that Bethabara was pointed out as the place where John had baptized; the statement is confirmed by Eusebius and Jerome also, who were well acquainted with the region. Hence, it is most probable that Bethany disappeared after the Apostles' time, and was restored under the name of Bethabara; cf. Lücke at the passage, p. 391ff (Cf. Prof. J. A. Paine in Phila. S. S. Times for Apr. 16, 1881, p. 243f.)

Thayer is almost no doubt correct because the word is actually Beth(Beit)-Anyah, that is, House of Affliction. House of Affliction once again implies thorns, especially the painful sting of an Acacia thorn, (that is, Shiyttim, (misspelling so as to avoid the forum language filter)). This location therefore strongly implies Abel haShiyttim and the other places in the scripture where it is simply called Shiyttim. This place was likely at the little hill called "Mitzar", (Psa 42:6, see also Psa 133:2-3), which was known also as "Little Hermon", and after that it became known also as the Hill or Mount of Eliyah the Prophet, ("Elijah's Hill"), being the most likely place where the Prophet was taken up in a whirlwind. This is the most likely place where Yohanne was immersing, preaching, and teaching in John 1:28, and the immersion site is said to have been below this little mount, to the west of it, but still on the eastern side of the Yarden opposite Yericho, at the Yarden crossing.

This is now so much shown to be accurate that it has been named a UNESCO World Heritage site. The following is an image file of the site map painted on a stone slab which is found at the visitors center, (the circle near the center of the map marks "Elijah's Hill").

Jordan Day 5 2012 - Memorial of Moses, Bethany beyond the Jordan and the Dead Sea - Singapore Travel Blog

Sharing the itinerary for this trip - flight details, type of budget and complexity of traveling through the itinerary and the reason for this trip

escapesfromthelittlereddot.com

The above information is what I was actually researching when I came upon the information in the OP. On the Google topography map for this area the base of the little hill, "Mitzar", also known as "Little Hermon", and "the Hill of Eliyah", appears to be nearly a perfect circle. The greenery around the base of the hill, also running down to the immersion site, shows that this little hill was in the path of a water course, a wadi or stream, and which stream emptied into the Yarden. Near the end of the wadi is another spring or fountain called the Spring/Fountain of Yohanne the Immerser, (perhaps just a modern name given to it, but I am not sure).

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

There is so much more I have so far found concerning this subject matter that I already cannot remember where online I found some of it. Concerning more information regarding the Hill of Eliyah, and the place name Little Herman, see the following link:

Elijah’s Hill – Baptism Site

www.baptismsite.com

 

[HARK!]

The following video gives a history of the discovery of Bethany beyond Yarden, (or perhaps Yordan), which essentially proves that the Madaba map is mistaken in regards to "Bethabara" because, for one, it is on the wrong side or the river according to the map itself.

I started to watch the part of the video that discuses the map; but it makes the same presumptuous assumptions that I have heard all of my life. First it presents the false dichotomy of East VS West; but what about North and South?

The Salt Sea is South of the Jordan Valley. Where was this verse written; but more importantly where was Yahahsua coming from when he sought Yochanan the Immerser? If he was heading South from Nazareth, down the Jordan valley toward the Salt Sea; then the Salt Sea would be beyond the Jordan Valley. It would also be where the Zadokites like the great Prophet Yochanan the Immerser, were living in the Wilderness, and had large mikvehs, and their scrolls prophesying that the Messiah was soon to come.

I see a match here; but we could keep searching elsewhere.

 

[HARK!]

Some say that Bethany means "Date House" but I don't think so.

Mickelson's:
G963 Βηθανία Bethania (beeth-a-niy'-a) n/l.
1. date-house.
2. Beth-any, a place in Israel.
[of Chaldee origin]
KJV: Bethany

Thayer's Lexicon:
Βηθανία Βηθανίας, ἡ (עֲנִיָּה בֵּית house of depression or misery (cf. B. D. American edition)), Bethany;
1. a town or village beyond the Mount of Olives, fifteen furlongs from Jerusalem: John 11:1, 18; John 12:1; Matthew 21:17; Matthew 26:6; Luke 19:29 (here WH give the accusative Βηθανία (see their Appendix, p. 160), cf. Tr marginal reading); ; Mark 11:1, 11; Mark 14:3; now a little Arab hamlet, of from 20 to 30 families, calledel-'Aziriyeh orel-'Azir (the Arabic name of Lazarus); cf. Robinson i. 431f; (BB. DD. under the word).
2. a town or village on the east bank of the Jordan, where John baptized: John 1:28 L T Tr WH (see the preceding word). But Origen, although confessing that in his day nearly all the manuscripts read ἐν Βηθανία, declares that when he journeyed through those parts he did not find any place of that name, but that Bethabara was pointed out as the place where John had baptized; the statement is confirmed by Eusebius and Jerome also, who were well acquainted with the region. Hence, it is most probable that Bethany disappeared after the Apostles' time, and was restored under the name of Bethabara; cf. Lücke at the passage, p. 391ff (Cf. Prof. J. A. Paine in Phila. S. S. Times for Apr. 16, 1881, p. 243f.)

Thayer is almost no doubt correct because the word is actually Beth(Beit)-Anyah, that is, House of Affliction. House of Affliction once again implies thorns, especially the painful sting of an Acacia thorn, (that is, Shiyttim, (misspelling so as to avoid the forum language filter)). This location therefore strongly implies Abel haShiyttim and the other places in the scripture where it is simply called Shiyttim. This place was likely at the little hill called "Mitzar", (Psa 42:6, see also Psa 133:2-3), which was known also as "Little Hermon", and after that it became known also as the Hill or Mount of Eliyah the Prophet, ("Elijah's Hill"), being the most likely place where the Prophet was taken up in a whirlwind. This is the most likely place where Yohanne was immersing, preaching, and teaching in John 1:28, and the immersion site is said to have been below this little mount, to the west of it, but still on the eastern side of the Yarden opposite Yericho, at the Yarden crossing.

This is now so much shown to be accurate that it has been named a UNESCO World Heritage site. The following is an image file of the site map painted on a stone slab which is found at the visitors center, (the circle near the center of the map marks "Elijah's Hill").

Some say Bethany. Some say Bethabara. Some say that Bethabara morphed in liguistics from Betharabah. (From Hebrew to Greek if I remember correctly)

1026. Beth Haarabah

Strong's Concordance
Beth Haarabah: "place of the depression," a place near the Dead Sea
Original Word: בֵּית הָעֲרָבָה
Part of Speech: Proper Name Location
Transliteration: Beth Haarabah
Phonetic Spelling: (bayth haw-ar-aw-baw)
Definition: "place of the depression", a place near the Dead Sea


1004. bayith

Strong's Concordance
bayith: a house
Original Word: בּיִת
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: bayith
Phonetic Spelling: (bah'-yith)
Definition: a house

6160. arabah

Strong's Concordance
arabah: a steppe or desert plain, also a desert valley running S. from the Sea of Galilee
Original Word: עֲרָבָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: arabah
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-aw-baw')
Definition: a steppe or desert plain, also a desert valley running S. from the Sea of Galilee

 

[daq]

I found a even higher resolution copy here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/1852_Philip_Map_of_Palestine_-_Israel_-_Holy_Land_-_Geographicus_-_Palestine-philip-1852.jpg

I found it through this page. It will take me hours and hours to explore all of these great maps:

Category:Old maps of the Tribes of Israel - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Nice, thank you, and that map is nice and clear too. Also I noticed that the Madaba Map approximately locates Gilgal by name and by the fact that it pictures the twelve stones that were set up at that location, right after bnei Yisrael crossed over the Yarden and entered into the land, (the twelve stones taken out of the midst of the river, which appear on the map to have been set in a wall in front of a basilica at that location).

In the yellow outline circle:

Line 1 - ΓΑΛΓΑΛΑ·ΤΟΚΑΙ - (Galgala to kai) Gilgal and the
Line 2 - ΔΩΔΕΚΑΛΙΘΟΝ - (dodeka-lithon) twelve stones

 

[daq]

I started to watch the part of the video that discuses the map; but it makes the same presumptuous assumptions that I have heard all of my life. First it presents the false dichotomy of East VS West; but what about North and South?

The Salt Sea is is South of the Jordan Valley. Where was this verse written; but more importantly where was Yahahsua coming from when he sought Yochanan the Immerser? If he was heading South from Nazareth, down the Jordan valley toward the Salt Sea; then the Salt Sea would be beyond the Jordan Valley. It would also be where the Zadokites like the great Prophet Yochanan the Immerser, were living in the Wilderness, and had large mikvehs, and their scrolls prophesying that the Messiah was soon to come.

I see a match here; but we could keep searching elsewhere.

Beth-Abarah and Beth-Barah both mean "House of the Ford", (ford = a river crossing place). Beth-Abarah is a misunderstanding of Beth-Arabah in the LXX version of the Torah. Beth-Barah is from Judges 7:24, which reads βαιθβηρα in the LXX, something like Baith-Bera.

In Joshua 15:6 we find the first occurrence of Beth-Arabah, and the OG LXX reads the same:

Joshua 15:6 OG LXX
6 επιβαινει τα ορια επι βαιθαγλα και παραπορευεται απο βορρα επι βαιθαραβα και προσαναβαινει τα ορια επι λιθον βαιων υιου ρουβην

However, in Joshua 15:61, speaking of the same location, we find θαραβααμ, something like Tharabaam, which is therefore an obvious corruption because Beth-Arabah in Joshua 15:6 is mentioned together with Beth-Hoglah, (at the border between Yhudah and Benyamin), and the narrative there proceeds (north) to the Stone of Bohan which marks the northern boundary of Reuben at the river Yarden.

What remains of the original text tells us what it must have originally said: if you take the final two letters of "tharabaam" and count them as a portion from another word which originally followed this word, what you have left is "tharaba". What therefore is missing? The first two letters of Baith-Arabah, (Bai)tharaba, Greek (βαι)θαραβα, the same as what was already written to begin with at the beginning of the passage, in Joshua 15:6 OG LXX quoted above.

Joshua 15:6 KJV
6 And the border went up to Bethhogla, and passed along by the north of Betharabah; and the border went up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben:

The third place were we find Beth-Arabah is in Joshua 18:22, where the boundary of Benyamin is described, and yet again herein it is mentioned along side Beth-Hoglah, and even Yericho is mentioned, which both were in Kikkar Yarden, the circle or plain of the Yarden at the northern tongue of the Salt Sea, where the river Yarden empties into the Salt Sea.

Joshua 18:21-22 KJV
21 Now the cities of the tribe of the children of Benjamin according to their families were Jericho, and Bethhoglah, and the valley of Keziz,
22 And Betharabah, and Zemaraim, and Bethel,

It is this place in the LXX, Joshua 18:22, that the name Beth-Abara most likely comes from on the Madabah Map: for the OG LXX is mistaken, changing arabah to abarah, and apparently it has been so since that time, proven to be in error by its own rendering of the same place as Beth-Arabah in Joshua 15:6, (and probably originally also in Jos 15:61 which became corrupted).

Joshua 18:22 OG LXX
22 και βαιθαβαρα και σαρα και βησανα

Moreover, Beth-Arabah was indeed on the western side of the river Yarden, and the author of the Gospel says (Bethany) "beyond the Yarden", and from the authors perspective this would be somewhere on the eastern side of the Yarden, not the western side, because it was beyond the Yarden. Beth-Arabah cannot be the name of the location intended in John 1:28 because it was not "beyond the Yarden".

Beth-Abarah or Beth-Bara could have been the name of the location because they both mean "House of the Ford" or Crossing, but the Madaba Map would still be mistaken in this regard because on the map Beth-Abara is on the western side of the river, before the river, not beyond it.

 

[daq]

Issue number two with the Madaba Map:

In the yellow outline circle:

Line 1 - ΑΙΝΩΝ·ΕΝΘΑ
Line 2 - ΝΥΝΟϹΑΠϹΑΦΑϹ

"Ainon, wherein is now Sapsaphas", (also named in the Wiki link in reply #2).

The problem is that Ainon is only mentioned in John 3:23, (typically rendered as Aenon), and it is not beyond the Yarden but in Yhudah, and by this we can easily surmise that it was in the wilderness of Yhudah. The Gospel of John bears this out and also reveals the likely location of the place called Saleim in the same passage.

John 3:22-26 KJV
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon [ΑΙΝΩΝ] near to Salim, [ϹΑΛΕΙΜ] because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

According to the language in John 3:26 Yohanne was not beyond the Yarden at this time: otherwise the question asked of him would not have been phrased the way it is, "Rabbi, he that was with you [when you were] beyond the Yarden"...

Moreover, by the information in the portion quoted above, it is clear that Ainon near unto Shalem was in Yhudah, and therefore in the wilderness or desert of Yhudah, and the Master himself and his talmidim may also have went there because it was in such close proximity to where they, (his talmidim), were immersing, (the final statement in John 3:23).

Therefore also it is not possible that Saleim-Shalem was the one near Shechem in Samariah, as most scholars purport to be the case, (for rather obvious reasons). What follows in the next passage tells us that they were all in Yhudah, (the wilderness or desert of Yhudah).

John 4:1-3 KJV
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

"He left Yhudah", and just before this we are informed that they were immersing in Yhudah at the same time that Yohanne was also immersing in Ainon, plural, (as in Ein-Eglaim), that "well-watered place" in the desert of Yhudah with Saleim-Shalem close at hand.

The Madaba Map is from the sixth century AD, and while it is surely marking traditional and known places from its time, still yet the traditions for why those basilicas were built to begin with were probably only as old as the fourth century AD, (after Constantine converted to Christianity), when Helena of Constantinople went on her pilgrimage to the Holy Land and miraculously discovered holy relics and reportedly some of the places mentioned in the Gospel accounts which had already been lost or forgotten by that time.

 

[Yahudim]

Thank you both. Learning a bunch here.

 

[daq]

Hobah / Chobah ~ the Hiding Place

The location of this mysterious place, supposedly unknown according to most of modern scholarship, was indeed known in the time when the book of Judith was written, (at least by the author of the book), and it is expounded in the scripture by way of the episode of the spies which Yhoshua sent to spy out Yericho.

The first passage where Hobah is mentioned is Judith 4:4, where it is mentioned along side Yericho, and in the preceding text, in some manuscripts of Judith 3:10, we find that Holofernes encamped his forces for a full month at the location between Yogbehah, (seven miles northwest of Ammon Rabbah), and Abel/Ebel Shiyttim, which is no doubt the same location mentioned in the Torah where bnei Yisrael encamped before crossing the Yarden, (Num 33:49), and which in other places is simply called Shiyttim, (<- misspelling to avoid the forum language filter).

Based on multiple texts: (one of them linked below in Judith 3:10)

Judith 3:1-10
1 So they sent ambassadors to him to entreat him for peace, saying,
2 Behold, we, the servants of Nebuchadnezzar the great king, lie before you: use us as it seems good in your sight.
3 Behold, our houses and all our places, and all our fields of wheat, and flocks and herds, and all the lodges of our tents lie before your face: use them as it pleases you.
4 Behold, even our cities and their inhabitants are your servants: come and deal with them as it seems good to you.
5 So the men came to Holofernes and made declaration before him in this manner.
6 Then he came down toward the sea coast, both he and his army, and set garrisons in the high cities, and took out of them chosen men to assist them.
7 And they and all the surrounding country received them with garlands, with dances, and with timbrels.
8 Yet he cast down their barriers and cut down their sacred groves: for he had decreed the destruction of all the gods of the land, so that all nations should worship Nebuchadnezzar only, and so that all tongues and tribes should call upon him as god.
9 He also came across Esdraelon near Dothaim, across the great strait of Yhudah.
10 And he pitched camp between Yogbehah and Ebel-Shiyttim, and abode there a whole month to gather together all the carriages of his army.

Judith 4:1-5
1 And those of bnei Yisrael living in Yhudah had heard all that Holofernes the chief captain of Nebuchadnezzar king of the Assyrians had done to the nations, and in what manner he had pillaged all their temples, and had brought them to nothing.
2 Therefore they exceedingly feared him, and were troubled for Yerushalem, and for the House of YHWH their Elohim.
3 For they were newly-returned from captivity, and all the people of Yhudah had only recently gathered together: moreover the vessels and the altar and the House had recently been sanctified after the profanation.
4 They therefore sent word into all the coasts of Samaria and their villages, and to Bethoron and Belmen, and to Yericho and Hobah and Hatzor and the valley of Shalem:
5 to fortify all the tops of the high mountains in advance, and to fortify the villages which were among them, and to store up food as provisions for war, for their fields had recently been harvested.

The place in Yhoshua where Rahab tells the spies to hide themselves in the mountain is the same place, and it is on the left hand side just a little north of Yericho, and is now well known as the traditional location of the mount of the temptation. The side of the mountain facing east is full of caves and holes, the perfect hiding place for the spies in the side of the mountain.

Joshua 2:15-16 KJV
15 Then she let them down by a cord through the window: for her house was upon the town wall, and she dwelt upon the wall.
16 And she said unto them, Get you to the mountain, lest the pursuers meet you; and hide [H2247 chabah] yourselves there three days, until the pursuers be returned: and afterward may ye go your way.

Herein we have a pursuit, (just as in Genesis 14 where Abraham pursues the kings of the east), and the pursuers follow the Yarden to the (multiple) crossings while the two spies are hiding in the mountain immediately west, behind, and just a little north of Yericho. This is the Hiding Place, Hobah, for the word highlighted in the above, the verb H2247 chabah, (to hide), is the root for Hobah.

Most of the commentators verify the place but do not make the connection with Hobah:

Pulpit Commentary:
Verse 16. - Get you to the mountains. No hint is given why the mountains were to be so safe a refuge. But a reference to the geography of the district will supply the reason. Any mountain district is usually less accessible and less thickly inhabited than the plains. But within five miles of Jericho lay the remarkable range called Quarantania, or Kuruntul, which is literally honeycombed with caves, so that a man might be concealed for months in the immediate neighbourhood of Jericho with a very slight risk of discovery. It is obvious how strongly this fact confirms the accuracy of the narrative. An inventor would have been certain in some way or other to draw attention to a statement intended to give an air of probability to his narrative. But there is nothing of the kind here, and yet the narrative displays a thorough acquaintance with the geographical features of the neighbourhood. Canon Tristram ('Land of Israel,' p. 207, sqq.) carefully explored the caverns. On one face of the rock, which is perpendicular, he found "some thirty or forty habitable caves," and on the southern face, towards Jericho, he supposed there were a good many more than this. The scouts of the king of Jericho might be excused a very diligent search, for we are told that the "foot hold was hazardous and the height dizzy." From the days of the spies till long after the Christian era, these caves have been in existence. They have been tenanted by Greek, Syrian, and even Abyssinian monks, and Canon Tristram found many Greek and Ethiopic inscriptions, as well as figures of our Lord and the saints. The Abyssinian Christians make a yearly pilgrimage there even now. The reason of the reverence in which the place is held, is the tradition (not, however, eight hundred years old, see Bitter, 3:37) that, as the name Quarantania implies, the forty days' fast of our Lord took place there. As a specimen of the mystical interpretations in which the Fathers indulged, we find Origen expounding the advice, "Get you to the mountains," as follows: "Humilia et dejecta refugite, quae excelsa sunt et sublimia, praedicate." Joshua 2:16

Joshua 2:16 Commentaries: She said to them, "Go to the hill country, so that the pursuers will not happen upon you, and hide yourselves there for three days until the pursuers return. Then afterward you may go on your way."

What else is critical and necessary to be explained on the following map?

דן, Gen 14:14, should it be pointed as Dan or din, (judgment)?
And where is the well-watered land of Damasek?
I must reserve these for another post.

 

[daq]

דן, Gen 14:14, Dan or diyn?

There are some places in the scripture where diyn is missing the yod/yud but still means judgment, in several different forms such as also to contend, or to plead, as in pleading a cause, to execute judgment, to requite, to vindicate, etc., etc. Remarkably one of those instances may be found in the very next passage, in the same location in that passage, (verse number fourteen), and this is Genesis 15:14, where the Most High says to Abram that the nation whom Yisrael shall serve, He will judge, (דן). Thus diyn does not always have the yod/yud and the context must therefore be the ultimate determiner of the meaning, whether it be the proper noun, Dan, or whether it should be understood as diyn.

The second reason we may take issue with the reading of Dan, in Gen 14:14, is the blatant fact that there was no city named Dan in the time of Abram, (I've already heard all the excuses for why Dan may still be the correct rendering).

The third reason we may take issue with the reading of Dan in Gen 14:14 is the fact that the word for pursue in this instance is not the correct form for what is most commonly rendered, "he pursued them unto Dan"... The form, (וירדף), does not include them, which is why decent translators will place the word them in italics here, (such as in the KJV). Yet the form of this same word in the next verse, (with a mem suffix), does indeed say "and he pursued them", (וירדפם). Therefore the statement strongly implies that Abram was pursuing something other than them, which can really only mean he was pursuing judgment, (דן), and thus Abram gave chase unto the judgment, to the contest, to plead his cause, to execute judgment, to requite, to vindicate, etc., etc., and to deliver Lot and the people and their goods which were robbed, plundered, and taken captive.

דּוּן / דִּין
dı̂yn / dûn
BDB Definition:
1) to judge, contend, plead
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to act as judge, minister judgment
1a2) to plead a cause
1a3) to execute judgment, requite, vindicate
1a4) to govern
1a5) to contend, strive
1b) (Niphal) to be at strife, quarrel
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root [comp. H113]

Genesis 14:1-18
[01] And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations,
[02] that these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela which is Zoar.
[03] All these were joined together by Emek haSiddim, which is the Salt Sea.
[04] Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer: and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
[05] And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzim in Ham, and the Emim in Shaweh Kiriathaim,
[06] and the Horim in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is in the wilderness.
[07] And they returned, and came to Ein Mishpat, which is Qadesh, and smote all the country of the Amaleki, and also the Amori that dwelt in Hatzetzon Tamar [which is Ein Gedi (2Chr 20:2)].
[08] And the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, (which is Zoar), went forth and joined battle with them by Emek haSiddim:
[09] with Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar, four kings against the five.
[10] And Emek haSiddim was full of bitumin pits: and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell [in] there, and the remnant fled to the mountain.
[11] And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their food, and went their way.
[12] And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
[13] And there came an escapee, and told Abram the Hebrew, and he abode in Eloni Memra the Amari, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were Baali-Briyth with Abram.
[14] And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his initiates born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and gave chase unto the judgment [to plead a cause, to contend, execute judgment, requite, vindicate].
[15] And he divided himself and his servants against them by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand [north] of Damaseq.
[16] And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again Lot his brother, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
[17] And the king of Sodom went forth to meet him after his return from having struck Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him, at Emek Shaweh, which is Emek haMelek.
[18] And Melki-Tzedek king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine: and he is Kohen of El Elyon.

Note that the text plainly tells us that Emek haSiddim is the Salt Sea, and yet emek is certainly a valley as opposed to a plain, and Siddim likely comes from the word for a field, (sadeh), so it means something like Valley of the Salt Fields or Salt Flats, and plainly tells us that this same Emek haSiddim was pitted with bitumin (tar) pits. How can this also be the Salt Sea?

Recently scientific investigations have become necessary due to the loss of water from the Salt Sea, for because of an explosion in population, and modern technology, (in this case plumbing, and runnig water inside homes), and because of the overusage of the water source flowing into the Salt Sea, (that is, of course, the Yarden River), the Salt Sea itself is evaporting very rapidly. In the course of some of these studies I found some that show estimates for future estimated levels of the Salt Sea if nothing is done about the water situation. What I found in this, which is the only reason I present this information here, is that the floor of the Salt Sea on the north end is more shallow than it is southward, (until it reaches the Lisan Peninsula). In the following study one may see the researcher's etsimate as to what the level of the Salt Sea will look like by 2070 if nothing is done about the water issues.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Shrinkage-of-the-surface-area-of-the-Dead-Sea-as-a-result-of-the-decline-in-its-water_fig4_339044303

You can see the area which is being spoken about in the scripture, on the north end of the Salt Sea, and if this was indeed dried up it would have likely been a semi-marshy area pitted with bitumin-tar pits, which still today exist on the floor of the Salt Sea, and sometimes even large blobs of bitumin will rise to the surface when they break free from the sea floor because they float in the highly saline waters, (there are numerous image files online).

The only way I can imagine this was true is if at the time of Genesis 14, what are now the evaporation ponds at the southern end of the sea, actually drained out into the arabah southward and continued down to the Gulf of Aqaba. This is indeed quite possible, especially since it was before Elohim destroyed Sodom and the cities of the plain with what is now proven to have been a blast from a meteor or an asteroid as it entered earth's atmosphere and exploded, (fire and brimstone, just as the scripture says).

Moreover, since the Salt Sea is located on a rift where two tectonic plates meet, all of this seems entirely plausible: and yet here it is before our eyes in the Torah. At the time of Genesis 14 the northern end of the Salt Sea was Emek haSiddim, marshy salt flats filled with bitumin pits. Then later, (perhaps with the destruction of Sodom and the cities of the plain?), the southern end of the Salt Sea closed up and the Salt Sea began to rise to levels known in later periods of the scripture and more recent times, which is why the text says of Emek haSiddim, "it (which) is the Salt Sea", (Gen 14:3).

 

[daq]

4 They therefore sent word into all the coasts of Samaria and their villages, and to Bethoron and Belmen, and to Yericho and Hobah and Hatzor and the valley of Shalem:
5 to fortify all the tops of the high mountains in advance, and to fortify the villages which were among them, and to store up food as provisions for war, for their fields had recently been harvested.

Concerning Judith 4:4, I suspect that Hazor, (Hatzor), may have originally been a plural form for walled villages, hatzerot with the article attached, for hatzer is a walled village, (just as I also suspect that there are places in the scripture which are rendered as proper nouns where simply a village or villages is what is intended). If this be the case in verse four above, the highlighted statement, then it would more likely have said "the walled villages in the valley (or plain) of Shalem". This would make perfect sense because it would be describing a wall of defense from the coasts of Samaria all along the territory of the Yarden River down to the northern mouth of the Salt Sea, on the northwestern side of the sea, and this would be directly opposite to the location where the opposing army led by Holofernes was encamped, (between Yogbehah and Abel-Shiyttim on the eastern side of the Yarden River).

The Hatzor in the Galil is out of the picture. The Hatzor of Benyamin was more inland within the national boundaries. The Hatzor of Yhudah was in the area around the southern end of the Salt Sea, (or possibly further south), which was not threatened and therefore needed no defense because it was too far south from where the opposing army under Holofernes was encamped.

These things being the more likely case then, we know of several villages in the area which are spoken of in verse four: Middin, Sekakah, and Ein Eglaim, (modern Ein Feshka), which have been discussed somewhat previously above herein. Middin and Sekakah would likely have been walled villages, (hatzerot), since they were large enough to be mentioned in Jos 15:61, and they were situated on the very same plain spoken of in Judith 4:4 quoted above: the valley or plain of Shalem, which appears to be the plain between the northwestern end of the Salt Sea and the ridge, (shekem), whereon Goren haAtad and the place now called Khirbet Qumran are located.