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"The Unseen World" – The Story of Angels and Demons in Scripture & Tradition

Is the view outlined here consistent with a Christian angelology and demonology?

  • This view of angelic & demonic history is consistent with Christian theology.

    Votes: 3 100.0%
  • Parts of it are tenable, but there are significant errors (if so, please suggest corrections).

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
  • Poll closed .

Reader Antonius

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Pax, Ειρήνη, שלום!

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who participated in my early post on multiple angelic falls. It was an extremely helpful discussion for me, and, I hope, for others as well. Being a theological thinker prone to synthesis of data, I pondered greatly on this question with the help of numerous theological manuals, books, and, of course, Holy Scripture & the Catechism of my Church. In the process of that, I have formulated what I hope and believe will be a basic synthesis for understanding the historical progression of angelic life in primarily the antediluvian period, but also post-Flood too. Some of what I will write here is established dogma for the vast majority of Christians, but other things are theologumena based on Jewish tradition & early Christian concepts. I would greatly appreciate helpful criticisms of this synthesis so that I might arrive closer to the Truth, insofar as we humans can grasp this mystery (much of it not covered by Divine Revelation). Keep in mind this is basic for brevity, and I'll also divide it in sequence. So here goes nothing!

I. The Creation of the Rational Spirits

Purely rational & bodiless spirits are created on the Second Day (Gen. 1:8). They are formed into a hierarchy, probably based on the successive "emanations" from the Shekhinah (שְׁכִינָה), which Plato theorized. Traditionally, these are the "Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; and Principalities, Archangels, and Angels," all in descending order (cf. Eph. 1:21, Col. 1:16). Naturally, this hierarchy is tentative; we simply don't know for sure, but it is based on Biblical insights in both the OT & NT – not to mention Jewish tradition (cf. Yad ha-Chazakah: Yesodei ha-Torah by Rav Moshe ben Maimon).

It seems apparent that, at the pinnacle of this hierarchy, stands the one we traditionally call "Lucifer." This is more a description than a name ("light-bearer"), and it is entirely possible we no longer know his true name...even he may have forgotten it. The Jewish tradition suggests he was likely a seraphim, the mighty & fiery creatures who endlessly surround God's throne praising him (Isa. 6:2-3). Yet, Jews also note that "Lucifer" had twelve wings, which is double that the seraphim. This indicates a unique creature with greater power and authority. Thus, it seems reasonable that "Lucifer" is the greatest created spirit in will, intellect, and might. According to Christian teaching over many centuries, it seems that all these created angels were in a state of pilgrimage (Christian Latin: “statu viae”) towards their destined goal: the Vision of God's Essence. Before they arrived at that goal for which they were created however, they were tested.

II. The Creation of Adam & the Test

On the last day of Creation, mankind is made in the person of Adam. According to the Aggadic Midrashim & Christian tradition over many centuries, the making of mankind – a hybrid being seamlessly integrating both spiritual and material reality – probably was the test of the angels. The Aggadic Midrashim (and, oddly enough, the Qur'an), as well as other Christian sources note that Mankind is God's most beloved creation; and this drew the envy of some angels. As the account goes, God commands all the angels to bow to Adam in recognition that he was made in the Divine Image (Ps. 8:5-6). "Lucifer" scoffs at this, the Aggadah putting into his mouth: "Thou didst create us angels from the splendour of the Shekhinah, and now Thou dost command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which Thou didst fashion out of the dust of the ground!?"

Thus, in his pride in his own glory, he refuses to bow in honor at God's command. Apparently, a number of other angels felt likewise. The Archangel Michael, reproaches him vehemently for this, threatening that if "Lucifer" does not bow, the wrath of God will blaze against him. This seems to be the trigger, as "Lucifer" responds: "If He breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High!" This leads to the Fall of Satan and those angels – now demons – that follow him. They are cast out from both Heaven but also their eternal destiny as God desired it. The remaining angels faithful to God "pass" the test and are able to find their end as God willed. This, in part, is why the choice of both angels & demons is an irrevocable one. Moreover, enmity between demons and men begins in earnest, and sin makes its entrance into Creation. Hell, as a state of being in which communion with God is no longer possible, also probably dates to this moment.

III. Demons Attack Mankind & Bring Abominations

By the permissive Will of God, demons begin meddling in human affairs out of their hatred to mankind. We are all familiar with the Fall of Mankind, due in large part to Satan himself in Genesis 3, so I will not belabor this point. Yet, Genesis 6:1-8 provides an extremely important polemic of Mesopotamian paganism, and, far more crucially(!), is an ancient Jewish & Christian understanding of what provoked the Flood (cf. Jude 1:14-16, 2 Pet. 2:4-5). I cannot go into great detail here why I believe Enochian literature & tradition plays a crucial role in exegeting Gen. 6:1-8, so forgive that lacuna; time does not permit me in this brief treatise. Yet, I am convinced of this reality – despite believing the uninspired writers of 1 Enoch made a crucial mistake. Despite this, many Church Fathers such as Sts. Justin Martyr, Athenagoras of Athens, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Father Origen, Tertullian, and Lactantius all speak highly of 1 Enoch; sometimes even quoting it as Scripture. Hence, while I do not accept 1 Enoch as inspired, I think it provides helpful clues to properly understanding both Gen. 6:1-8, especially, and the Noachic Account in Gen. 6-8.

In essence, then, demonic activity begins not long after the Fall of Mankind. It seems that, in the days of Jared (Gen. 5:15-18), a number of demons began truly wicked activity among mankind. Through methods we don't understand, it appears that they "interfered" with human reproduction, specifically by targeting human women. This isn't surprising considering that even the Satan himself, with all his great power, cannot create from nothing. He and the demons can only warp what is already created. Thus, many theologians have concluded that a major source of hate for mankind on the part of the demonic is envy at our ability to procreate with God. This "interference" (however it took place) led to the abomination of the Nephilim (which contrary to desperate attempts to force it to be a Hebrew word, is really an Aramaic borrowing which means, simply, "Giants").

As 1 Enoch and Jubilees tells it, these demonic giants first make slaves of humanity and force them to provide them food. When humanity's production cannot keep up with the giants' voracity, they begin eating humans. Moreover, the demons living among mankind begin teaching us knowledge we were not ready to know. Weapons, astronomy, how to appear more sexually appealing, etc. This leads to great wickedness among mankind: violence, robbery, idolatry, human sacrifice, and rampant fornication & sexual debauchery. This expanded view of Gen. 6 helps explain the verse: "And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." (Gen. 6:6). It was not merely the sin of mankind that was so great (for are we not now utterly corrupt in our own age?), but also the activity of the demonic working with us to create unspeakable evils.

IV. God Intervenes to Save the World & Mankind

If we take into account both the inspired Genesis narrative, and the Jewish tradition regarding Gen. 6:1-8 that is reflected in 1 Enoch, we have a very fascinating look into how God deals with the veritable catastrophe. Jewish & Early Christian tradition holds that God deals with the demons first. Azazel, one of the leaders, is cast out into the deep desert and imprisoned by stones until Judgment Day (this also helps explain Lev. 16 & the Biblical rituals of Yom Kippur). The rest of the demonic culprits are, mostly, cast into Hell and chained until their own judgment. This is what St. Jude seems to be referring to in Jude 1:6-7 (note St. Jude connects these “angels” with sexual immorality; a probable reference to the "creation" of the giants). Then, God moves to deal with both the wickedness of mankind and the threat of the Nephilim (נפילים – ܢܦܗܝܠܝܡ). This, incidentally, is why the Flood must cover all the mountains; not only does this deny safety to any humans, it also deals with the height of the giants. None will survive outside the Ark. Demons, being non-material, are not affected by the Flood, but their many works in the antediluvian world are totally "washed away" (a symbol of Baptism). The earth, now being cleansed, is able to start again with the righteous St. Noah and his family as the "glimmer of Adam again" as one of my favorite movies puts it.

V. Demonic Domination Continues Until Christ's Victory

Unfortunately, of course, the Great Flood is only a temporary fix. Not long after St. Noah, mankind slips again into idolatry and wickedness. The Tower of Babel, the dispersing of the tribes & tongues, and history as we know it moves forward. Demons seem to take positions as "gods" over various nations, luring them into worshipping them (Deut. 32:8-9; Dan. 10:12-14; etc.). St. Justin the Philosopher, writing in 155 A.D., notes: "For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself." (First Apology Ch. 5). This demonic activity, which seems to have only been limited here and there (as opposed to the Age of the Church wherein demons are heavily limited), may also explain the Nephilim encountered in Num. 13:33.

Yet, God is not finished with His Salvific Will. Beginning with St. Abraham our Father all the way to the Paschal Mystery of Christ and the establishment of His Church, He has effectively defeated the demons and stripped them of the majority of their freedom & power. Any subsequent demonic activity must now be invited by humans – whether via occult activity or horrendous sins. Moreover, Heaven has now been opened by the Blood of Christ, and Hell is only now for those who would choose it over God rather than an inescapable destiny. Death is transformed, for the Christian, into the birth into eternal life. And, of course, at the Second Coming, the fullness of the Kingdom will come. Satan and all his followers, men or demon, will be forever confined to darkness and fire. They will never again disrupt the Thrice-Holy God's renewed Creation.

Unsurprisingly, all this might seem weird and strange to modern Christians. Yet, this was widely believed (in part or in whole) by both Second Temple Jews & the earliest Christians. This type of supernatural worldview is more in keeping with the Christian ethos than many modern believers might like to think. There are mysteries to the "invisible" world that Christian theology, however rigorous, cannot easily categorize.

Following the example of Fra. Nicholas of Lyra, I quote for myself also:

"I protest that I do not intend to assert or determine anything that has not been manifestly determined by Sacred Scripture or by the authority of the Church. Wherefore I submit all I have said or shall say to the correction of Holy Mother Church and of all learned men."
 
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Fallen angels are not demons, so not sure how that goes with your beliefs.
Curious. The definition of a fallen angel in Christian theology is precisely equivalent to demon. They are synonyms. What do you think distinguishes a fallen angel from demon, substantively (as opposed to accidentally)? I find this proposal fascinating.
 
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timothyu

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This vid by Dr. Heiser covers it all and clears up any misconceptions, especially those posted here as truths. It is always nice to stumble across those who agree with scripture rather than theologists or worse yet, tradition.

 
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Curious. The definition of a fallen angel in Christian theology is precisely equivalent to demon. They are synonyms. What do you think distinguishes a fallen angel from demon, substantively (as opposed to accidentally)? I find this proposal fascinating.

Demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim from Genesis 6. A nephilim is the offspring of the union of the sons of God (fallen angles) and the daughters of men. They were half human and half angel, satan brought this about to try and corrupt humanity's seed so The Messiah could not come into the world.
 
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Reader Antonius

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Demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim from Genesis 6. A nephilim is the offspring of the union of the sons of God (fallen angles) and the daughters of men. They were half human and half angel, satan brought this about to try and corrupt humanity's seed so The Messiah could not come into the world.

Not quite. The Jewish understanding is the disembodied demons of the Nephilim were equivalent to the Jewish demonological "shedim" (שדים). [It's also questionable how "human" the giants really were, but that's another issue...]. These are indeed demons, but not quite the same as Ha-Satan, Belial, and others. The Aggadic Midrashim, among other Jewish sources, clearly demonstrate that distinction. So if one too rigorously divides fallen angels with shedim, it's not a viable way to process the Judaic data. My point is simply that I reject 1 Enoch's claim that the 200 of Hermon were angels who fell; on the contrary, due to their behavior and what we know from the rest of Divine Revelation, they are clearly already demonic. 1 Enoch, mind you, was written before the Coming of the Messiah, who completed Revelation.
 
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Blade

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Thanks but much of this is not in the word of God so its nothing more then speculation. Like demons if were going to run with Jewish understanding that again is allot of speculation. So if we play with speculation we know angels fallen or not have bodies superior to mans where as demons are disembodied spirits always seeking a home/host as Christ said. What no one knows is before the flood were there 1000 or billions of people? We know the fallen angels took women had kids which were giants and how many? No one knows again could have been thousands or billions yet we do know they were never meant to be. We do know every thought intent of the heart was evil.

See we know what God gives He does not take back so how He made every angel and ever gift or what ever He gave them they still have. Its man that thinks Satan has horns and is red carrying some pitch fork. He looks exactly as he did as every angel did before the fall. They are not in some time bubble like us. They do not age blah blah blah. This.. again if we go out side the word of God then anything can be said and mine is just as true as anyone else. But I have no problem saying I can be wrong.. Father Change me first. Yet I don't dive into this don't want to give the enemy any glory. Don't want to listen talk to them.. in JESUS name ..praise GOD GLORY GLORY GLORY TO THE FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST! YES!

So the OP's post is not more true then this. If we go out side the word/Torah/NT we can say anything we want. If we know Jewish understanding (ops words) they all don't agree :) gets left out.

So what really mattes is Christ came we have all power/authority over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt us. Greater is He CHRIST in us then he thats that's in the world. What matters is how Christ GOD looked at this told them don't rejoice the demons are subject unto you but that your names are written in heaven. Most have never seen the spiritual realm and theres a reason for this.
 
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BobRyan

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Pax, Ειρήνη, שלום!

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who participated in my early post on multiple angelic falls. It was an extremely helpful discussion for me, and, I hope, for others as well. Being a theological thinker prone to synthesis of data, I pondered greatly on this question with the help of numerous theological manuals, books, and, of course, Holy Scripture & the Catechism of my Church. In the process of that, I have formulated what I hope and believe will be a basic synthesis for understanding the historical progression of angelic life in primarily the antediluvian period, but also post-Flood too. Some of what I will write here is established dogma for the vast majority of Christians, but other things are theologumena based on Jewish tradition & early Christian concepts. I would greatly appreciate helpful criticisms of this synthesis so that I might arrive closer to the Truth, insofar as we humans can grasp this mystery (much of it not covered by Divine Revelation). Keep in mind this is basic for brevity, and I'll also divide it in sequence. So here goes nothing!

I. The Creation of the Rational Spirits

Purely rational & bodiless spirits are created on the Second Day (Gen. 1:8). They are formed into a hierarchy, probably based on the successive "emanations" from the Shekhinah (שְׁכִינָה), which Plato theorized. Traditionally, these are the "Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; and Principalities, Archangels, and Angels," all in descending order (cf. Eph. 1:21, Col. 1:16). Naturally, this hierarchy is tentative; we simply don't know for sure, but it is based on Biblical insights in both the OT & NT – not to mention Jewish tradition (cf. Yad ha-Chazakah: Yesodei ha-Torah by Rav Moshe ben Maimon).

It seems apparent that, at the pinnacle of this hierarchy, stands the one we traditionally call "Lucifer." This is more a description than a name ("light-bearer"), and it is entirely possible we no longer know his true name...even he may have forgotten it. The Jewish tradition suggests he was likely a seraphim, the mighty & fiery creatures who endlessly surround God's throne praising him (Isa. 6:2-3). Yet, Jews also note that "Lucifer" had twelve wings, which is double that the seraphim. This indicates a unique creature with greater power and authority. Thus, it seems reasonable that "Lucifer" is the greatest created spirit in will, intellect, and might. According to Christian teaching over many centuries, it seems that all these created angels were in a state of pilgrimage (Christian Latin: “statu viae”) towards their destined goal: the Vision of God's Essence. Before they arrived at that goal for which they were created however, they were tested.

II. The Creation of Adam & the Test

On the last day of Creation, mankind is made in the person of Adam. According to the Aggadic Midrashim & Christian tradition over many centuries, the making of mankind – a hybrid being seamlessly integrating both spiritual and material reality – probably was the test of the angels. The Aggadic Midrashim (and, oddly enough, the Qur'an), as well as other Christian sources note that Mankind is God's most beloved creation; and this drew the envy of some angels. As the account goes, God commands all the angels to bow to Adam in recognition that he was made in the Divine Image (Ps. 8:5-6). "Lucifer" scoffs at this, the Aggadah putting into his mouth: "Thou didst create us angels from the splendour of the Shekhinah, and now Thou dost command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which Thou didst fashion out of the dust of the ground!?"

Thus, in his pride in his own glory, he refuses to bow in honor at God's command. Apparently, a number of other angels felt likewise. The Archangel Michael, reproaches him vehemently for this, threatening that if "Lucifer" does not bow, the wrath of God will blaze against him. This seems to be the trigger, as "Lucifer" responds: "If He breaks out in wrath against me, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will be like the Most High!" This leads to the Fall of Satan and those angels – now demons – that follow him. They are cast out from both Heaven but also their eternal destiny as God desired it. The remaining angels faithful to God "pass" the test and are able to find their end as God willed. This, in part, is why the choice of both angels & demons is an irrevocable one. Moreover, enmity between demons and men begins in earnest, and sin makes its entrance into Creation. Hell, as a state of being in which communion with God is no longer possible, also probably dates to this moment.

III. Demons Attack Mankind & Bring Abominations

By the permissive Will of God, demons begin meddling in human affairs out of their hatred to mankind. We are all familiar with the Fall of Mankind, due in large part to Satan himself in Genesis 3, so I will not belabor this point. Yet, Genesis 6:1-8 provides an extremely important polemic of Mesopotamian paganism, and, far more crucially(!), is an ancient Jewish & Christian understanding of what provoked the Flood (cf. Jude 1:14-16, 2 Pet. 2:4-5). I cannot go into great detail here why I believe Enochian literature & tradition plays a crucial role in exegeting Gen. 6:1-8, so forgive that lacuna; time does not permit me in this brief treatise. Yet, I am convinced of this reality – despite believing the uninspired writers of 1 Enoch made a crucial mistake. Despite this, many Church Fathers such as Sts. Justin Martyr, Athenagoras of Athens, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Father Origen, Tertullian, and Lactantius all speak highly of 1 Enoch; sometimes even quoting it as Scripture. Hence, while I do not accept 1 Enoch as inspired, I think it provides helpful clues to properly understanding both Gen. 6:1-8, especially, and the Noachic Account in Gen. 6-8.

In essence, then, demonic activity begins not long after the Fall of Mankind. It seems that, in the days of Jared (Gen. 5:15-18), a number of demons began truly wicked activity among mankind. Through methods we don't understand, it appears that they "interfered" with human reproduction, specifically by targeting human women. This isn't surprising considering that even the Satan himself, with all his great power, cannot create from nothing. He and the demons can only warp what is already created. Thus, many theologians have concluded that a major source of hate for mankind on the part of the demonic is envy at our ability to procreate with God. This "interference" (however it took place) led to the abomination of the Nephilim (which contrary to desperate attempts to force it to be a Hebrew word, is really an Aramaic borrowing which means, simply, "Giants").

As 1 Enoch and Jubilees tells it, these demonic giants first make slaves of humanity and force them to provide them food. When humanity's production cannot keep up with the giants' voracity, they begin eating humans. Moreover, the demons living among mankind begin teaching us knowledge we were not ready to know. Weapons, astronomy, how to appear more sexually appealing, etc. This leads to great wickedness among mankind: violence, robbery, idolatry, human sacrifice, and rampant fornication & sexual debauchery. This expanded view of Gen. 6 helps explain the verse: "And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." (Gen. 6:6). It was not merely the sin of mankind that was so great (for are we not now utterly corrupt in our own age?), but also the activity of the demonic working with us to create unspeakable evils.

IV. God Intervenes to Save the World & Mankind

If we take into account both the inspired Genesis narrative, and the Jewish tradition regarding Gen. 6:1-8 that is reflected in 1 Enoch, we have a very fascinating look into how God deals with the veritable catastrophe. Jewish & Early Christian tradition holds that God deals with the demons first. Azazel, one of the leaders, is cast out into the deep desert and imprisoned by stones until Judgment Day (this also helps explain Lev. 16 & the Biblical rituals of Yom Kippur). The rest of the demonic culprits are, mostly, cast into Hell and chained until their own judgment. This is what St. Jude seems to be referring to in Jude 1:6-7 (note St. Jude connects these “angels” with sexual immorality; a probable reference to the "creation" of the giants). Then, God moves to deal with both the wickedness of mankind and the threat of the Nephilim (נפילים – ܢܦܗܝܠܝܡ). This, incidentally, is why the Flood must cover all the mountains; not only does this deny safety to any humans, it also deals with the height of the giants. None will survive outside the Ark. Demons, being non-material, are not affected by the Flood, but their many works in the antediluvian world are totally "washed away" (a symbol of Baptism). The earth, now being cleansed, is able to start again with the righteous St. Noah and his family as the "glimmer of Adam again" as one of my favorite movies puts it.

V. Demonic Domination Continues Until Christ's Victory

Unfortunately, of course, the Great Flood is only a temporary fix. Not long after St. Noah, mankind slips again into idolatry and wickedness. The Tower of Babel, the dispersing of the tribes & tongues, and history as we know it moves forward. Demons seem to take positions as "gods" over various nations, luring them into worshipping them (Deut. 32:8-9; Dan. 10:12-14; etc.). St. Justin the Philosopher, writing in 155 A.D., notes: "For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself." (First Apology Ch. 5). This demonic activity, which seems to have only been limited here and there (as opposed to the Age of the Church wherein demons are heavily limited), may also explain the Nephilim encountered in Num. 13:33.

Yet, God is not finished with His Salvific Will. Beginning with St. Abraham our Father all the way to the Paschal Mystery of Christ and the establishment of His Church, He has effectively defeated the demons and stripped them of the majority of their freedom & power. Any subsequent demonic activity must now be invited by humans – whether via occult activity or horrendous sins. Moreover, Heaven has now been opened by the Blood of Christ, and Hell is only now for those who would choose it over God rather than an inescapable destiny. Death is transformed, for the Christian, into the birth into eternal life. And, of course, at the Second Coming, the fullness of the Kingdom will come. Satan and all his followers, men or demon, will be forever confined to darkness and fire. They will never again disrupt the Thrice-Holy God's renewed Creation.

Unsurprisingly, all this might seem weird and strange to modern Christians. Yet, this was widely believed (in part or in whole) by both Second Temple Jews & the earliest Christians. This type of supernatural worldview is more in keeping with the Christian ethos than many modern believers might like to think. There are mysteries to the "invisible" world that Christian theology, however rigorous, cannot easily categorize.

Following the example of Fra. Nicholas of Lyra, I quote for myself also:

"I protest that I do not intend to assert or determine anything that has not been manifestly determined by Sacred Scripture or by the authority of the Church. Wherefore I submit all I have said or shall say to the correction of Holy Mother Church and of all learned men."
It is true that fallen angels are demons - but there are a lot of errors in that post.
Angels (fallen or not) do not engage in any sort of reproduction even with themselves as Christ points out in Matt 22.
 
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Reader Antonius

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Thanks but much of this is not in the word of God so its nothing more then speculation.

I agree that it's speculation to a degree, but certainly not groundless. Genesis 6:1-8 has been a problem for Christian exegetes for centuries upon centuries. And part of that is a failure to recognize Nephilim as an Aramaic borrowing, and a failure to understand the world of St. Moses the Prophet & ancient Mesopotamia. Christians, I suppose, can continue trying worn-out theories like "Sethite" and "divine kingship," which we know now are full of holes Biblically, and just keep trucking on...but does that really show respect for the written Word of God? Genesis 6:1-8 may seem small, but "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16).

Does not Genesis 6:1-8 count as "all Scripture"?

I'm being a tad facetious of course, but my point does remain nonetheless. Many scholars simply dismiss Genesis 6:1-8 as immaterial or without need of good research. And yet, even the smallest passages can alter theology in big ways.

Moreover, I would push back that it's all speculation. I have incorporated a great deal of solid & dogmatic theological truths that are deeply rooted in Scripture; not to mention 2,000 years of Christian theology! So this is much more than merely imagining things or pulling things out of the air. There are significant foundations to all of this that go back to the beginning of God's Revelation to mankind, and much of it has indeed been included in the Scriptures. Simply because you or I might not see it in Scripture at first glance (being 21st century modern Westerners) does not meant that this is not in the (written) Word of God.
 
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It is true that fallen angels are demons - but there are a lot of errors in that post.
Angels (fallen or not) do not engage in any sort of reproduction even with themselves as Christ points out in Matt 22.

This is a poor argument. Christ does not say angelic beings cannot reproduce...it simply implies that they don't. "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Mt. 22:30). If anything, this verse argues that angels don't engage in marriage not anything else. For the record, though, I agree with you that neither angels nor humans reproduce in Heaven.

Moreover, the idea of demons cohabitating with human women is problematic in some ways...but it's not impossible. Many times in the OT we see angels capable of, at the very least, functioning as though they are material. But even if we can dispense of the idea of demonic copulation with human women resulting in giants, there's no reason why creatures as powerful as demons couldn't manipulate the female human reproduction system to create giants (which would be an abomination enough!). As one who studies demonology, the demonic can do things far beyond what many realize. And when we take into account this is the Pre-Messianic Era...the possibilities are disturbing.

In any case, Matthew 22:30 is no proof text against what Genesis 6:1-8 describes. Part of this misunderstanding is, actually, precisely why many Christian exegetes attempted to deny the obvious and develop alternative theories, which, many scholars now grasp, are full of holes.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

It is true that fallen angels are demons - but there are a lot of errors in that post.
Angels (fallen or not) do not engage in any sort of reproduction even with themselves as Christ points out in Matt 22.
This is a poor argument. Christ does not say angelic beings cannot reproduce
It comes directly from scripture and is the most consistent view -- making it the best argument.

In Matt 22 we find this
23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; and the first married and died, and having no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 It was the same also with the second brother, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her in marriage.”​
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, since you do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.​

This is very specifically addressing the question of husband-wife relationships and is asking "whose WIFE ...will she be" in the resurrection.
Jesus' answer is that the issue of husband-wife does not apply to the resurrection because the saints will then be "like the angels" who do not engage in husband-wife relationships at all. No "family" relationships for angels. no such thing then as baby-angels or "angel-daddy" etc.

He basically points to the fact that their question was based on false assumptions , false teaching, false views of marriage in a context where it does not exist.

...it simply implies that they don't. "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Mt. 22:30). If anything, this verse argues that angels don't engage in marriage

It means that God did not make angels with that function so then you never see in scripture "mommy angels" or "mrs Angel" or women angels or female angels. There is no support at all for the idea that God made male and females in any given species but commanded all members of that species to be celebate no matter that the species was designed for reproduction by the Creator. That idea is quite a leap.

The generic term of "he" for Angels is like the generic term for God the Father - it does not mean that God the father is a biological male seeking to mate with a woman-god or anything of the sort.

This is basic.


the idea of demons cohabitating with human women is problematic in some ways
To say the least
But even if we can dispense of the idea of demonic copulation with human women resulting in giants
Indeed we can since Genesis 6 does NOT say that the giants existed AFTER the mixed-marriages between sons-of-God (children of Seth) and the daughters-of-men (daughters of Cain) -- in fact Gen 6 says the giants were there BEFORE that happened and Genesis says the giants existed AFTER the flood ended - meaning - Noah was also a giant.
, there's no reason why creatures as powerful as demons couldn't manipulate the female human reproduction system to create giants
No doubt if God allowed it - humans would be producing babies with fins and scales via genetic manipulation by demons. But God does not allow that.
 
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Reader Antonius

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Indeed we can since Genesis 6 does NOT say that the giants existed AFTER the mixed-marriages between sons-of-God (children of Seth) and the daughters-of-men (daughters of Cain) -- in fact Gen 6 says the giants were there BEFORE that happened and Genesis says the giants existed AFTER the flood ended - meaning - Noah was also a giant.

No doubt if God allowed it - humans would be producing babies with fins and scales via genetic manipulation by demons. But God does not allow that.

Here you posit the Sethite hypothesis, essentially, which as I said is full of holes. I won't both to poke those holes here because the scholarly research done on this can be easily found on the interwebs. Moreover, the timeline of Nephilim existing after the Flood can be readily explained by the fact that this activity continued, but apparently on a smaller scale. This is also helps explain why God ordered cherem with regard to these Nephilim. But that's outside the scope of Genesis. We fail to recognize something ancient Christianity and Second Temple Judaism understood extremely well: Prior to the Messianic Age, the Evil One and his demons had dominion over mankind. We had sold ourselves to them by both the defect inborn into every human (aka. "original sin") and by our own personal sins, to boot. Only Christ shattered the rule of the Evil One and stripped him of most of his freedom and power. This is abundantly clear in Scripture. Hence, what the demonic is permitted to do now and what God may have permitted then are two animals entirely. Once demons effectively ruled nations; now they are merely influencers and tempters at best.

I am curious with your bold claim: "But God does not allow that." Indeed? Do you know the mind of God, the One whom St. Paul speaks of in Romans 11:33? I urge great caution here. You and I are not privy to the Providence, Will, and Wisdom of God. Even if we were fully Divinized in Christ with Heavenly glory, we would never grasp it fully. It is not a good argument to say so broadly: "God does not allow that." Divine Providence, even now in the Messianic Era, allows suffering on vast scales (e.g. the Shoah), evils multiplied beyond counting, and innocent children to undergoing unspeakable torments even as I type. Does God not allow that either? This is where things start to break down.

I cannot discuss any further unfortunately as the Paschal Vigil fast approaches. But I hope to return to this thread during Bright Week. :) I'm also very grateful for the input. (y)
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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BobRyan said:

In Matt 22 we find this
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, since you do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Noah was also a giant.
Matthew 22:29 brings John 3:6-8 to mind :) Where in scripture does it say that Noakh was a Nephelim in light of Genesis 6:9????
 
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Matthew 22:29 brings John 3:6-8 to mind :) Where in scripture does it say that Noakh was a Nephelim in light of Genesis 6:9????
The OT says that Nephilim existed after the flood - but the text also says that only 8 people survived the flood (also confirmed in the NT 1 Peter 3) -- which means those who survived it - were also of that same phenotype - genetically.

Gen 6 says
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The text says the giants predated the event of mixed marriages between daughters of me and sons of God.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
 
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BobRyan

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. Moreover, the timeline of Nephilim existing after the Flood can be readily explained by the fact that this activity continued, but apparently on a smaller scale.
you are using circular reasoning.

1. Gen 6:4 does NOT say "giants came about after the mixed marriages" between the fallen children of Can and the descendents of Seth "sons of God". Rather it says that giants existed in the days before the flood AND ALSO afterward when mixed marriages were going on. So the mixed marriages were not the cause according to Gen 6.

2. That means that giants before AND after the flood had to be due to the physical traits of those who transit from pre-flood to post-flood.

This is also helps explain why God ordered cherem with regard to these Nephilim. But that's outside the scope of Genesis
outside of scripture is a problem for many reasons.
We fail to recognize something ancient Christianity and Second Temple Judaism understood extremely well: Prior to the Messianic Age, the Evil One and his demons had dominion over mankind.
1., Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glory in Matt 17 - before the cross event happens.
2. The OT saints are held up as examples for NT saints to follow in Heb 11.
3. The "Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Once demons effectively ruled nations; now they are merely influencers and tempters at best.
By contrast they are called "The god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4
I am curious with your bold claim: "But God does not allow that." Indeed? Do you know the mind of God
I know scripture - and Matt 22 says that God did not make angels with the ability to form families furthermore there is not one example in all of the Bible of God creating a species with the function of reproduction yet forbidding that species to reproduce. This is irrefutable.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The OT says that Nephilim existed after the flood - but the text also says that only 8 people survived the flood (also confirmed in the NT 1 Peter 3) -- which means those who survived it - were also of that same phenotype - genetically.

Gen 6 says
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The text says the giants predated the event of mixed marriages between daughters of me and sons of God.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Again, there is no scriptural evidence that Noakh was a giant. In fact, as Genesis 6:9 states, it is just the opposite!
 
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Reader Antonius

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Pax, Ειρήνη, שלום! Christ is Risen!!!

Now that Holy Week has ended and the sweet rest of Bright Week has begun, I can devote myself to greater dialogue here. :) I will try now to address some of your more theological points. Keep in mind we are on the same page regarding angels, demons, and heavenly humans do not engage in marriage or procreate in the ordinary way. For the record, I believe that Gen. 6:1-8 is not literal, but is describing demonic interference in human reproduction out of spite & envy. Although others far more Biblically literate than I think differently. That said, let us continue:


you are using circular reasoning.

1. Gen 6:4 does NOT say "giants came about after the mixed marriages" between the fallen children of Can and the descendents of Seth "sons of God". Rather it says that giants existed in the days before the flood AND ALSO afterward when mixed marriages were going on. So the mixed marriages were not the cause according to Gen 6.

We need to be very careful here. To me, you seem committed to the Sethite hypothesis, so there is a danger we could speak past one another. The issue of giants after the Flood is easily explained as either continued demonic interference, or survivals due to a local Flood (more on that later). It is not as if the Jews reading the Torah in Genesis 6 were unaware of the "and also" clause. Quite the contrary.

Hence, there are a number of ways we can deal with the verse 6:4 (I'm using the ESV-CE here, fwiw):

"The Nephilim (giants) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown."

As I know from my Messianic Jewish roots & my studies as a Reader, in Hebrew the word "when" here is "asher" (אֲשֶׁר). This is a highly multivalent word, as you probably know already. It can easily imply or directly signify the word "whenever," which suggests a repeat of antediluvian demonic activity in the postdiluvian world.

Yet, this is not the only way to interpret 6:4. For example, I reject the idea that the Flood was a worldwide deluge based on reason & the Hebrew & LXX of the Noachic account. I believe it was local to wherever the human population was more or less confined before the great migrations which scientific theory (and Gen. 10) outlines. It is thus not hard at all to see the majority of demonic activity being confined to the same area, nor is it farfetched to assume that the local nature of the Flood wiped out the giants afflicting humans (which was the point anyway), while also affirming that other giants fled or were reduced to local clans (like the Anakim).

Again, this actually works well with the fact that God commands cherem with the Anakim. Such cherem may suggest what many Jews & Early Christians suspected: the Nephilim were demonic abominations of nature and not human. So there's multiple ways to approach this that can't be swept aside.


2. That means that giants before AND after the flood had to be due to the physical traits of those who transit from pre-flood to post-flood.

This is a weak argument it relies on the already assumed Sethite hypothesis and then explains the clause from it. The presence of giants after the Flood can be explained in more than one way, as I said above.

By contrast they are called "The god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4

There is no true contrast here; if anything it undergirds my point. St. Paul is referring to both the prior and current role the demonic plays, but when contextualized with other NT teachings on what Christ has done to demonic power, it harmonizes without contrast at all. The demonic, more specifically Satan, remains "god of this world" in one sense, but the sense is distinct from before the Paschal Mystery of Christ. Greg Boyd, explains it quite well:

"According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (1 Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8)."

Simply because that victory has yet to be fully accomplished does not take away from the fact that the victory is being accomplished, thanks be to God! Christianity has always held to a "now and coming" view of the Messianic Kingdom.

I know scripture - and Matt 22 says that God did not make angels with the ability to form families furthermore there is not one example in all of the Bible of God creating a species with the function of reproduction yet forbidding that species to reproduce. This is irrefutable.

I also know Scripture, friend. ;) I'm an instituted Reader of both the Latin & Greek Catholic churches, and it's literally my job to know the Bible and study it assiduously. You're not alone in that here. Please, do not think me a mere dabbler or newbie when it comes to the Bible. :)

Anyway, your argument only irrefutable if we make the assumptions you're making. But these assumptions do not follow.

As I pointed out earlier, the Gospel does not say angels cannot have sexual intercourse; it merely says they don't. This is important theologically, in fact. Keep in mind the old saying: "a text taken out of context is a pretext." ;) The context here in this chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel is the resurrection on the Last Day. This therefore refers either broadly to the afterlife or, more precisely, to the final universe renewed in Christ.

Either way, the point is the same. In the spiritual world, the realm of angels, demons, and disembodied human spirits, there is no need for procreation (and by extension then, marriage). Procreation is part of the material world and is necessary to maintain the physical population of humanity, who are hybrid beings of matter and spirit. Hence, life in the New Heaven & Earth also does not require maintaining the Children of Adam since everyone has an immortal, glorified body in the general resurrection. Therefore, to be blunt, there'll be no need for sex in the final resurrection, just as there is no need for it in the spiritual realm even now.

Here reading within the overall framework again becomes important. Genesis 6:1-8 doesn't have the spiritual realm or the final renewed creation as its context. So, the argument you posited breaks down, as I mentioned. Matthew 22 simply cannot be used as a prooftext against a literal reading of Gen. 6:1-8.
 
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Fallen angels are not demons, so not sure how that goes with your beliefs.
Demons are nothing but fallen Angels just as Satan is nothing but the fallen Lucifer.

Demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim from Genesis 6. A nephilim is the offspring of the union of the sons of God (fallen angles) and the daughters of men.
Neither of those statements is correct according to the Bible.

In Gen 6 Nephilim predate the event where the sons of God (children of Seth) enter mix-marriage with the daughters of men (descendants of Cain).

No Bible text says that fallen Angels are Nephilim.
They were half human and half angel,
Not true.

In fact in Matt 22 Jesus says that Angels do not even form family units within their own species let alone across different species.
 
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