The revised Old Covenant

[Xeno.of.athens]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

 

[Clare73]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

The New Covenant commandments are given in Mt 22:37-40 and Ro 13:8, 10.

 

[BobRyan]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

Jer 31:31-34 is the New Covenant - quoted verbatim in Heb 8 - exactly as it was in the OT.

The terms "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" have two contexts.

The context of system of worship and form of evangelism

1. OLD Covenant
a. Symbol of Covenant basis of Eternal life (Obey and Live -- Gen 2) perfect sinless obedience. See also Gal 3:10
-- everyone who is lost - is lost under the "obey and live" system of the spiritual Old Covenant
b. The Old Covenant system of worship was based in animal sacrifice types pointing forward to Christ.
c. The Old Covenant priests, ceremonies etc
d. Evangelism in the form of pointing the nations of Earth to the one true God that blesses Israel and prospers it.

2. New Covenant

Spiritual - basis for salvation OT and NT

Jer 31:31-34​

-- Each one with a new heart, God's Law written on the heart​

-- Each one taught by God​

-- Each one adopted into God's family​

-- Each one forgiven of sins through faith in Jesus' name Acts 10:43 says this is what all OT prophets taught​

Evangelism based on persectuted church model​

​

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel​

Gal 3:8 that ONE Gospel "preached to Abraham"​

========================================
In all ages -- All the lost are still under the Old Covenant system/basis for eternal life
In all ages -- All the saved are under the New Covenant

 

[BobRyan]

The New Covenant commandments are given in Mt 22:37-40 and Ro 13:8, 10.

All of which are found in the Law of Moses

Marriage between one man and one woman - Gen 2 - is pure old covenant, Law of Moses.
It was given under the "obey and live" conditions of Gen 2. And is still valid today as part of the moral law of God

Mat 22 quotes from Law of Moses exclusively
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Those are the two greatest commandments in the Law of Moses according to both Christ and the Jews.

Rom 13 quotes from Law of Moses Exclusively
Quotes from the TEN having to do with Love your neighbor
Quotes from Lev 19:18 - Love your neighbor.

But no NT command quotes "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- even though this too applies to us even today

 

[fhansen]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

The NC is the authentic means to fulfill the old, which is the reason that the old is made obsolete. The new is fulfiiled by the Spirit, by virtue of man now being reconciled with and in communion with God. This relationship is how man is meant to be, even if it won't be fully realized and consummated until the next life. Some of Jesus' commands are new but the OT law summed up in the ten commandments is still in force, as we see in Jesus' and Paul's teachings even if it can be authentically fulfilled only by life in the Spirit, under grace, and not by means of being under the law.

To understand this more fully would be to say that the the law can only be fulfilled by our love, the love that God begins to cultivate in us as we draw near to Him.

 

[RandyPNW]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

The Old Covenant is called "old" for a reason--it has aged and has died. But the Law of God preceded the Old Covenant and cannot always be considered synonymous with the Old Covenant.

The "Law of God" is a term that can easily be confused with the term "Law of Moses." They are synonymous terms in one context but very different terms in another context. Before the Law of Moses the "Law of God" was not synonymous with the Law of Moses. After the Law of Moses the "Law of God" is no longer synonymous with the Law of Moses. During the time of the Law of Moses it can be viewed as the "Law of God" in the land of Israel.

The Law of God is generally what God requires of Man, and existed from the creation of Man, requiring him to obey God, to live in God's image, and to carry out the instructions of God's word. But after the Law of Moses came into effect, it was also called the "Law of God" because it had become, for Israel, some of the requirements God was requiring of Man under that covenant.

So as long as the Law of Moses remained in effect, the "Law of God" for Israel was viewed by Israel as synonymous with that Covenant. The fact Moses' Law ultimately failed in Israel indicated it had served as a temporary mode for Israel until those hardened by it could be expelled and those softened by it could be led to a "New Commandment," or a "New Covenant."

Both Old Covenant and New Covenant are viewed today as instructive--we have both Old and New Testament Bibles. And that's because they in their own context represented God's Law and God's Nature, even if the Old Covenant of Moses' Law was intended by God to be fulfilled in its failure and its progression to a New Covenant and New Commandment.

Why would God intend to use the Old Covenant as a "failure" and as only a temporary tool? It held Israel in a relationship with God, while recognizing that some in Israel would be hard-hearted and not use it properly. It was a system tainted by human contact, and was used until a new system could be employed that is not tainted by human contact.

The New Commandment is issued by the perfect Man, Christ. He has within himself a means of redemption that cannot be disqualified unless a person chooses to remain outside of his God-oriented system. Those who wish to rely on their own qualifications will clearly fail, since it was only one sin that disqualified Man in the beginning.

 

[Clare73]

All of which are found in the Law of Moses
Mat 22 quotes from Law of Moses exclusively
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Those are the two greatest commandments in the Law of Moses according to both Christ and the Jews.
Rom 13 quotes from Law of Moses Exclusively
Quotes from the TEN having to do with Love your neighbor
Quotes from Lev 19:18 - Love your neighbor.
But no NT command quotes "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- even though this too applies to us even today

If you love God with all your heart, will you disrespect his name. . .or worship other gods?

According to Jesus, love covers all the bases (Mt 22:37-40), repeated by Paul (Ro 13:8, 10).

 

[RandyPNW]

The NC is the authentic means to fulfill the old, which is the reason that the old is made obsolete. The new is fulfiiled by the Spirit, by virtue of man now being reconciled with and in communion with God. This relationship is how man is meant to be, even if it won't be fully realized and consummated until the next life. Some of Jesus' commands are new but the OT law summed up in the ten commandments is still in force, as we see in Jesus' and Paul's teachings even if it can be authentically fulfilled only by life in the Spirit, under grace, and not by means of being under the law.

To understand this more fully would be to say that the the law can only be fulfilled by our love, the love that God begins to cultivate in us as we draw near to Him.

I cannot agree that the Ten Commandments are still in force and equal to NT teaching because although they are based upon similar principles the Ten Commandments contain a requirement to observe the Sabbath Day, which is not part of the New Covenant. NT mandates do not include observance of the Sabbath Day at all.

When NT instruction appears to endorse the Ten Commandments what it is actually endorsing is the moral principles that transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant, and they would exclude the requirement to observe the Sabbath Day.

That being said, the Ten Commandments are often used as a group to show that NT Christianity utilizes the same moral system as that employed under the Old Covenant of Law. It simply does not need to explain that the Sabbath Law requirement is an exception.

 

[fhansen]

I cannot agree that the Ten Commandments are still in force and equal to NT teaching because although they are based upon similar principles the Ten Commandments contain a requirement to observe the Sabbath Day, which is not part of the New Covenant. NT mandates do not include observance of the Sabbath Day at all.

When NT instruction appears to endorse the Ten Commandments what it is actually endorsing is the moral principles that transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant, and they would exclude the requirement to observe the Sabbath Day.

That being said, the Ten Commandments are often used as a group to show that NT Christianity utilizes the same moral system as that employed under the Old Covenant of Law. It simply does not need to explain that the Sabbath Law requirement is an exception.

Maybe, but as the 10 are holy, spiritual, and good as Paul tells us in Romans 7 and as Jesus isn't against saying in Matt 19 that the 10 are necessary in order to enter life, and as the 10 are simply reflections of the two greatest, based on love as they are, and as the early churches always upheld them as necessary even while acknowledging that true obedience of them is only authentic and possible by the Spirit, and, finally, since the early churches saw Sunday, the Lord's Day, as fulfilling the Sabbath obligation for rest and worship, still recognizing the need to set aside a day for acknowledgment and devotion to God, I kind of think It's good to understand that they are speaking of a true righteousness, while one that the law and the prophets testify to without being able to accomplish in us, and that we still must live up to but in a new way, and with a new day centered on the resurrection, now.

 

[Clare73]

Maybe, but as the 10 are holy, spiritual, and good as Paul tells us in Romans 7 and as Jesus isn't against saying in Matt 19 that the 10 are necessary in order to enter life, and as the 10 are simply reflections of the two greatest, based on love as they are, and as the early churches always upheld them as necessary even while acknowledging that true obedience of them is only authentic and possible by the Spirit, and, finally, since the early churches saw Sunday, the Lord's Day, as fulfilling the Sabbath obligation for rest and worship, still recognizing the need to set aside a day for acknowledgment and devotion to God, I kind of think It's good to understand that they are speaking of a true righteousness, while one that the law and the prophets testify to without being able to accomplish, that we still must live up to to but in a new way, and with a new day centered on the resurrection, now.

They are simply the moral base for the born again, all being fulfilled simply by love of God and neighbor as self.

 

[RandyPNW]

Maybe, but as the 10 are holy, spiritual, and good as Paul tells us in Romans 7...

Well, anything God has said or done in the past, but which does not apply to us today, is still viewed as "holy, spiritual, and good." That would mean that animal sacrifices under an Aaronic/Levitical priesthood is still viewed as "good" today. It's just that it was "good in the time of its own particular covenant." Temple worship would still be viewed as "good in its time," even though it is no longer applicable today.

We need not find a "NT equivalent" to see it as something we are obeying today. The principles they represent are what we obey today. We don't follow a NT equivalent of a physical temple, as in a church building. We follow Christ as a completely different kind of temple, for example.

Paul is talking about maintaining the same mindset as that Israel had maintained under the Old Covenant, that he should be interested in pursuing whatever is still good for us today, namely the eternal Law of God, as opposed to the temporal Law of Moses.

If it had been good for Israel to obey the Sabbath Law under the Old Covenant, because prior to final redemption God saw fit to cause Israel to acknowledge a need to rest from theior works, then it is equally good today to acknowledge that the need for our works to be "limited" is no longer required due to the work of Christ which has brought us into God's eternal rest.

and as Jesus isn't against saying in Matt 19 that the 10 are necessary in order to enter life, and as the 10 are simply reflections of the two greatest, based on love as they are, and as the early churches always upheld them as necessary even while acknowledging that true obedience of them is only authentic and possible by the Spirit...

Jesus was speaking in Matt 19 while Israel was still under the Law of Moses. Just as today things are to be done by the heart and by the Spirit, so Israel at that time was to obey the commandments of the Law by the heart and by the Spirit.

The difference today, is that we don't see the Sabbath, the Temple worship, the sacrifices, and the Priesthood as the "good" that it was for Israel, pre-Redemption. They were all "good," as you say, at that time. But they are no longer "good" for us today, if it causes us to reject Christ's work in rendering those things unnecessary for our redemption.

, and, finally, since the early churches saw Sunday, the Lord's Day, as fulfilling the Sabbath obligation for rest and worship, still recognizing the need to set aside a day for acknowledgment and devotion to God, I kind of think It's good to understand that they are speaking of a true righteousness, while one that the law and the prophets testify to without being able to accomplish, that we still must live up to to but in a new way, and with a new day centered on the resurrection, now.

I think the replacement of Sabbath observance with Sunday worship was a failure to recognize that the moral principles of the 10 Commandments could be transferred into the New Covenant without transferring the Sabbath requirement as well. It may also have simply been a wish to transfer the Jewish tradition of a weekly rest day with something Christian. This Christians did with pagan holidays, as well, converting them into Christian traditions.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

The New Covenant is not merely a revision of the Old Covenant with the same laws being applied in the same way. Instead, it is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, and while the moral principles behind the Ten Commandments remain relevant, Christians are not bound to the entirety of the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial aspects. The New Covenant shifts the focus to internal transformation through the Holy Spirit and living by faith in Christ, with love for God and neighbor as the heart of Christian ethics.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I cannot agree that the Ten Commandments are still in force because although they are based upon similar principles the Ten Commandments contain a requirement to observe the Sabbath Day, which is not part of the New Covenant. NT mandates do not include observance of the Sabbath Day at all.

When NT instruction appears to endorse the Ten Commandments what it is actually endorsing is the moral principles that transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant, and they would exclude the requirement to observe the Sabbath Day.

That being said, the Ten Commandments are often used as a group to show that NT Christianity utilizes the same moral system as they employed under the Old Covenant of Law. It simply does not need to explain that the Sabbath Law requirement is an exception.

Christians keep resurrection day.

 

[fhansen]

They are simply the moral base for the born again, all being fulfilled simply by love of God and neighbor as self.

And that's why it's still good to be aware of them, as they continue to serve as a tutor when we fail to love.

 

[fhansen]

Well, anything God has said or done in the past, but which does not apply to us today, is still viewed as "holy, spiritual, and good." That would mean that animal sacrifices under an Aaronic/Levitical priesthood is still viewed as "good" today. It's just that it was "good in the time of its own particular covenant."

I don't think so at all. The ten first of all are focused on love of God and neighbor in most direct and basic ways while animal sacrifices are not, and were only conditional and temporary by their nature. On top of that God wrote the ten on tablets of stone Himself. And secondly Paul named a sample of the ten, only, as being holy, spiritual, and good in Rom 7 and as fufilling the Law in Rom 13 and Gal 5. There's a reason, IOW, why those commandments specifically were continued to be upheld by the early churches who knew full well the freedom that they now possesed in the new life they'd received.

Jesus was speaking in Matt 19 while Israel was still under the Law of Moses. Just as today things are to be done by the heart and by the Spirit, so Israel at that time was to obey the commandments of the Law by the heart and by the Spirit.

That argument never flew. Jesus taught one gospel, one truth regarding man's relationship with God, regardless of where and when.

I think the replacement of Sabbath observance with Sunday worship was a failure to recognize that the moral principles of the 10 Commandments could be transferred into the New Covenant without transferring the Sabbath requirement as well.

We can speculate about it endlessly but, IMO, going by early fathers, for one, it's just what the church, in both the east and west, received and practiced from the beginning.

 

[ARBITER01]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

With the advent of Jesus offering His body upon the cross, it was finished. The old covenant is fulfilled, complete, and extinct.

We are now considered children of Abraham, who was prior to the law of Moses. With the New Covenant, we are under the law of Christ now, and we obey "His" commandments, and we are able to do this because we are born from above and connected to Jesus with our newborn human spirit.

Nothing of the old carries over. For a lot of people, that is a hard saying to understand and accept, but it is true according to many passages of scripture.

When they rebuild the temple over in Israel, GOD will not be in it, no matter what they do.

 

[RandyPNW]

Christians keep resurrection day.

You may or may not keep Resurrection Day--either way it won't affect whether you're "Saved" or not. Eternal Life is a free gift given to those who ask for it and choose to live *in Christ.* Living in Christ does not require conformity to religious tradition, including observance of "Easter."

That being said, yes, most Christians "keep Resurrection Day" by going to church and remembering Jesus' work on the cross and his resurrection from the dead.

Tradition can be a very good thing. In this case I think it is. It is good both to remember Jesus and to recognize that we have a resurrection hope while we live in discouraging fallen world.

 

[BobRyan]

If you love God with all your heart, will you disrespect his name. . .or worship other gods?

we can say that about the first four commandments.
And we can ask a similar question regarding "Love your neighbor" in Lev 19:18 for the last 6 commandments.

If that is all we needed - then they are all "quoted/referenced"

According to Jesus, love covers all the bases (Mt 22:37-40), repeated by Paul (Ro 13:8, 10).

Indeed God is Love.

But that does not mean that we toss out our Bibles.

 

[BobRyan]

I cannot agree that the Ten Commandments are still in force and equal to NT

1. all TEN of them - except for "do not take God's name in vain" are either quoted in full or in part in the NT.

Paul goes out of His way to quote "Honor your father and mother" in Eph 6:1-3 even though he already stated the principle in vs 1... He still went on to go to the TEN and the order in which they appear etc - as "added authority" for his own statement in vs 1 of Eph 6.

teaching because although they are based upon similar principles the Ten Commandments contain a requirement to observe the Sabbath Day

Indeed they do.

And they are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34
"He spoke the ten words (Deut 4:13) ... "and added no more" Deut 5:22 .

, which is not part of the New Covenant

On the contrary - exegesis of Jer 31:31-34 "I will make a new covenant.. THIS IS the covenant..." has the LAW of God written on the heart as its very first precept and Deut 4:13 along with Deut 5:22 "And He added no more" make it clear that you cannot cut out God's Ten Commandments from that Jer 31:31-34 statement

This is irrefutable

. NT mandates do not include observance of the Sabbath Day at all.

Nor "do not take God's name in vain"... it is not mentioned at all in the NT and by contrast the Sabbath commandment is quoted from a number of times in the NT.

What is more "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 we have the gospel preached to gentiles and Jews. No OTHER day of the week has such a feature in the NT.

When NT instruction appears to endorse the Ten Commandments what it is actually endorsing is the moral principles

'The first commandment with a promise" in Eph 6:1-3 is a direct appeal not only the the TEN but to the order in which they appear

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul
[*]many others as well..

 

[Clare73]

And that's why it's still good to be aware of them, as they continue to serve as a tutor when we fail to love.

If we fail to love, we thereby fail all the commandments.