The reasons why people are NOT for Eastern Orthodoxy

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

i know this is a weird title and probably discussion and i mean no disrespect to any of you.

in my prayer request thread here, i mentioned that this saturday i'm going to go a parish about 20-25 min. away from me.

i'm changing churches. been in the process for quite awhile now, and i have to admit, i got rather stalemate with it...until today. i didn't realize there was a parish this close to me. the other one was over an hour and with gas prices i have to budget somewhat reasonable so before i found this parish my church switch kind of went into stalemate to be honest.

i've been a Christian for 13 years now but i was never really raised with anything. it wasn't until my parents divorced that i was brought into religion.

to make a long story short, i have a growing disdain towards Protestant theology. i'm not going into my liberal perspectives or anything but suffice it to say i have a huge growing disdain towards Protestant theology as a whole now.

so what i'm curious about is, from your perspectives what have you seen as the anti-reasons why people are against Eastern Orthodoxy? it's an odd question i know but since my faith started in the Protestant theological manners, i know i'll be coming towards a complete different faith. so i'm just trying to prepare myself some. not prepare myself for conflictions or anything. i'm open to the faith, i'm just curious what possible areas that may catch me off guard with theological stuff.

thank you to all that get into this discussion.

Jacob4707 · Apr 30, 2007

Well, you won't find any fans of John Shelby Spong here.

I don't know why people are against Eastern Orthodoxy - it probably varies with the individual. I was originally against it because it seemed too foreign/different a choice for me. If I was rejecting non-denominational and much denominational Evangelical and/or Charismatic Protestantism, it would be easier to become Catholic or Episcopalian/Anglican - more churches to choose from, more "Western" in its behavior and attitudes and theology, etc. But when all these other avenues seemed to close to me, and I continued to feel drawn to the EO Church, then my reasons "against" didn't matter as much.

eoe · Apr 30, 2007

The reason that people are "not for Orthodoxy" is because they hate God and want to do things their own way. They feel that they have the truth themselves and do not want the real truth that forces them to actually repent and conform God's plan. That is why people do not like Orthodoxy.

Christianity is an ascetic faith and they despise that. They do not want to deny themselves anything at all. They want to be able to use moral relativism to explain away thier own weaknesses and say that they are OK. They want to think that salvation is a simple matter of remission of guilt and not a process of renewal. They want to instantly be suddenly perfected without ever having to work for it.

If you want to hit homeruns you have to go out and hit baseballs. If you want to shoot 3 pointers - you have to go out and pick up a basketball. If you want to be the type of fellow who is long suffering - you have to suffer. If you want to be the type of person that Christ wants you to be you have to actually do what he says.

If any man says he knows Christ and does not follow his commandments then they are a liar and the truth is not in them.
What does Christ say that any person must do in order to even begin to follow him?
Deny himself.
Pick up a cross.
Follow him.

People hate Orthodoxy because they do not want to put any effort into anything at all. They are lazy. Their hearts are hard and cold. They are complacent and satisfied. They do not want to deny themselves. They do not want to pick up a cross. They do not want to follow Christ's commandments. They do not want to suffer.

That is why people are not "for Orthodoxy". It removes moral relativism. It removes delusion. It leads to repentance and obedience to Christ.

People hate God. They do not love their brothers and they serve only themselves.

I am the worst of them all.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner.

tel0004 · Apr 30, 2007

I think most people are never really exposed to Eastern Orthodox. I'll be honest and just say I dont know enough about it to like it or dislike it. I'm still working on studying Catholicism, while it has some merits there are things I disagree with.

One of the things with protestantism I disagree with is the (general) thought that nobody really knows what Christ said. Seems kind of odd for somebody who promised the gates of hell would not prevail.
I also tend to believe in Transubstantiation, which protestants reject.

I grew up with a lot of misinformation about Catholics, and when I learned about EO, I kind of grouped the two in the same bunch. I dont know enough to accept or reject EO, but I know enought to know I would like to learn more. Hope that helps some.

In essence, lack of information is probably the biggest thing (I think for protestants). I think lack of information on EO is better than people believing false information for Catholics.

In the end, I've decided to open up my heart and mind and if Jesus did in fact establish a church on Earth, than I'm going to find it.

Eusebios · Apr 30, 2007

TS,
It seems to me, that if you are speaking of the primary objections that Evangelical Protestants have in dealing with Orthodoxy, I'd say that they are, in no particular order:
-The veneration of icons
-the use of incense, candles etc.
-The high esteem for The Theotokos (God Bearer, Mother of God, The Virgin Mary)
-Prayers for the departed
-Prayers "to" the Saints (in actuality asking the Saints to pray for us)
I know that I had a real hang up on the issue of the Theotokos, howver God let me know, in no subtle way, that I was wrong and The Church right on this issue. Ihope this is what you were driving at
Peace,
Don

Jacob4707 · Apr 30, 2007

tel0004 said:
I think most people are never really exposed to Eastern Orthodox. I'll be honest and just say I dont know enough about it to like it or dislike it. I'm still working on studying Catholicism, while it has some merits there are things I disagree with.

One of the things with protestantism I disagree with is the (general) thought that nobody really knows what Christ said. Seems kind of odd for somebody who promised the gates of hell would not prevail.
I also tend to believe in Transubstantiation, which protestants reject.

I grew up with a lot of misinformation about Catholics, and when I learned about EO, I kind of grouped the two in the same bunch. I dont know enough to accept or reject EO, but I know enought to know I would like to learn more. Hope that helps some.

In essence, lack of information is probably the biggest thing (I think for protestants). I think lack of information on EO is better than people believing false information for Catholics.

In the end, I've decided to open up my heart and mind and if Jesus did in fact establish a church on Earth, than I'm going to find it.

You are right about one thing: Most people - at least in this country - don't know anything about Orthodoxy. Less than 3 years ago, I thought the Orthodox were just like the Catholics, minus the Pope and plus icons. That's all I knew after nearly 30 years of being a non-denominational/Evangelical/Charismatic Protestant in many churches in 2 different States. That, and THE DEER HUNTER and MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING were what I knew about Orthodoxy.

Ask, read, pray, study, and most of all VISIT a good Orthodox Church in your area so you can attend the Liturgy several times, as well as Vespers, and talk with the priest and people. (Depending on where you live, the church may have a bunch of converts who also used to be inquirers and relatively clueless.) That's the best way to learn.

eoe · Apr 30, 2007

Get to a service as soon as is possible and wear comfortable shoes.. That is the best advice that there is. Go as soon as you can.

repentant · Apr 30, 2007

Why people aren't into Eastern Orthodoxy, is because Satan has been trying to decieve mankind since man was created. Christ Himself even said that when He returns, will He find faith on earth. So it is obvious that the majority of people would not be in the correct Faith. I mean there are many reasons why people aren't EO or don't want have anything to do with. Most of it is misconception, and also relying on the Scripture alone dogma. Problem with that is that not only do they make their own interpretation, but they are using a version that is not correct. And when you try to tell them, the Greek does not say this, they fail to listen. There are many other reasons, but it all boils down to the first two sentences^^

Hoankan · Apr 30, 2007

I would agree on most people not knowing Orthodoxy or if they do know, it is more exotic way of worship. When I began inquiring, my mother wasn't against it, she just felt that it'd be too exotic for me and that maybe a Catholic church would be better.

Before I seriously looked into the Orthodox Church, I only knew some things about it historically, but nothing about what it stood for and why she was not apart of the Catholic Church. I really don't think hatred is apart of it, just misinformed or ignorance.

The comfortable shoes are a must and keep an open mind.

Akathist · Apr 30, 2007

Eusebios said:
TS,
It seems to me, that if you are speaking of the primary objections that Evangelical Protestants have in dealing with Orthodoxy, I'd say that they are, in no particular order:
-The veneration of icons
-the use of incense, candles etc.
-The high esteem for The Theotokos (God Bearer, Mother of God, The Virgin Mary)
-Prayers for the departed
-Prayers "to" the Saints (in actuality asking the Saints to pray for us)
I know that I had a real hang up on the issue of the Theotokos, howver God let me know, in no subtle way, that I was wrong and The Church right on this issue. Ihope this is what you were driving at
Peace,
Don

I think this is the best list of most problems people have.

I would add what someone else said too in this thread. There is not a lot of information out there, and lots of wrong information about Catholics... so that we get categorized as a "type of" Catholic in so many people's mind and then all that false propaganda that the Catholic Church has against it gets dumped on us too.

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

Eusebios said:
TS,
It seems to me, that if you are speaking of the primary objections that Evangelical Protestants have in dealing with Orthodoxy, I'd say that they are, in no particular order:
-The veneration of icons
-the use of incense, candles etc.
-The high esteem for The Theotokos (God Bearer, Mother of God, The Virgin Mary)
-Prayers for the departed
-Prayers "to" the Saints (in actuality asking the Saints to pray for us)
I know that I had a real hang up on the issue of the Theotokos, howver God let me know, in no subtle way, that I was wrong and The Church right on this issue. Ihope this is what you were driving at
Peace,
Don

yes this is what i was driving more at. thank you don.

i have seen the difference between the EOC and the RCC with the Theotokos. and there is quite a big difference from what i've researched.

the veneration of icons may be an interesting one for me. the rest including the Theotokos don't seem like major stumbling blocks but the veneration of icons may be a little stumbling block...even tho it was a Roman Catholic priest that i talked to about Roman Catholicism about this issue changed my "stumbling block" with this. so what is the Eastern Orthodox perspective on this topic?

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

Jacob4707 said:
Well, you won't find any fans of John Shelby Spong here.

I don't know why people are against Eastern Orthodoxy - it probably varies with the individual. I was originally against it because it seemed too foreign/different a choice for me. If I was rejecting non-denominational and much denominational Evangelical and/or Charismatic Protestantism, it would be easier to become Catholic or Episcopalian/Anglican - more churches to choose from, more "Western" in its behavior and attitudes and theology, etc. But when all these other avenues seemed to close to me, and I continued to feel drawn to the EO Church, then my reasons "against" didn't matter as much.

thank you for your post, but my OP had nothing in regards to searching for Spong fans

MariaRegina · Apr 30, 2007

Interesting, who is the man in your Avatar?

I have the Theotokos for my avatar so she can remind me to post gently.

Pray for me a sinner.

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

Aria said:
Interesting, who is the man in your Avatar?

I have the Theotokos for my avatar so she can remind me to post gently.

Pray for me a sinner.

John Shelby Spong

MariaRegina · Apr 30, 2007

I guess that is why Spong came up. He is in your avatar.

What attracts you to Spong?

Prodigal7 · Apr 30, 2007

Dear Tattedsaint,

I can relate to your spiritual search. I was baptized Orthodox but my family rarely went to church. My mom was Catholic, my dad was Orthodox, and they sent me to a Protestant based Christian school twice as a kid (4th grade and 6th grade). In other words, my early exposures to Christianity were all over the map.

I don't know why people are against Orthodoxy but I know why I drifted. I am currently exploring Orthodoxy and may return to it. I have a lunch scheduled with a priest Wednesday and am looking forward to it. I just hope I don't get nervous and forget all my questions.

I drifted because;

I was an Americanized Ukranian/Russian and didn't speak the language of my Dad and grandparents. I enjoyed the services but sometimes felt like an outsider. I learned how to do stuff by watching others and always felt awkward and clumsy in church.

We went to church so infrequently that I didn't experience the faith. Sure, I respected the icons and the pictures. God didn't seem real to me at the time so most of my time in church was spent wondering if God was real or not.

I got caught up in the culture that said, "Whatever is right for you is right for you." I had no idea that the Orthodox faith was as rich as it was or that it was full of the spirituality I craved. Back then I was more shy so I never picked up the phone and called a priest. I just isolated with my doubts and became a spiritual drifter.

Because my knowledge of Christianity was rudimentary at best things like apostolic succession or tradition had no meaning to me. You can't write a poem if you don't speak the language.

I had anger and rebellion in me so not only did I leave Orthodoxy but I almost became a Buddhist. This ties back into not having experienced God. I am of the belief that God reveals himself if you sincerely seek him. At that point I hadn't experienced God. I had experienced a series of calamities which in my mind pointed to their being no God.

Lately I've been scouring the Bible and I'm noticing the Church of Antioch pops up all over the place in Acts. I was also reading about the Church in Jerusalem. It is fascinating to think that the traditions the early Apostles practiced are alive and well.

I still run into some roadblocks which I will discuss with the priest. In particular I think of how the early Christians didn't want to admit non-Jews. I think of Peter's visit to Cornelious (The Roman Centurian). I still struggle with the concept that one group of Christians can be right and everyone else is wrong. This I will discuss with the priest.

Overall though I think I agree with Orthodox positions more than Protestant positions.

Though some Orthodox and Catholics may scoff at what they call the cheap grace of the Protestants, the inclusiveness of some of the evengelical Churches has introduced a lot of people to the basics of Christianity. The reeled me in when I was convinced that I tried Christianity and it didn't work. At that point I thought that the bible was a great book but somebody left the "how to" part of it out.

In that sense I appreciate the ascetic side of Orthodoxy because I am convinced for me, that I have to actively participate. I can't just sit back, recite a simple prayer and think everythings ok. My heart tells me I have to strive to be better which I am trying to do. I'm not saying it's all through works but I think striving to be better is part of it.

That's my ramble as a fellow seeker.

Prodigal 7

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

Aria said:
Interesting, who is the man in your Avatar?

I have the Theotokos for my avatar so she can remind me to post gently.

Pray for me a sinner.

Aria said:
I guess that is why Spong came up. He is in your avatar.

What attracts you to Spong?

his honesty. chapter 2 in his book A New Christianity for a New World was such a painful realistic eye opener to the world around us and myself.

now i don't agree with him on every little issue. but his blatant honesty and seek for truth and the Divine attracts me. critical understanding and critical research with seeking truth with God is of high importance to me and i'm attracted to people's thoughts whether i agree with the entirity of everything they say or not attracts me.

and while i'm at it, obviously i don't agree with him on every little issue. why would i be interested in searching out the most ancient/pre-modern/pre-medieval expression of the faith in the "world" of Christianity if i believed every little aspect of what Spong teaches?

Photios · Apr 30, 2007

One thing that I had trouble with at first was the fact that I was not to receive Communion. That and Forgiveness Vespers weirded me out.

Given your reasons for having a Spong avatar, you could just as easily have Nietzsche.

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

Prodigal7 said:
Dear Tattedsaint,

I can relate to your spiritual search. I was baptized Orthodox but my family rarely went to church. My mom was Catholic, my dad was Orthodox, and they sent me to a Protestant based Christian school twice as a kid (4th grade and 6th grade). In other words, my early exposures to Christianity were all over the map.

I don't know why people are against Orthodoxy but I know why I drifted. I am currently exploring Orthodoxy and may return to it. I have a lunch scheduled with a priest Wednesday and am looking forward to it. I just hope I don't get nervous and forget all my questions.

I drifted because;

I was an Americanized Ukranian/Russian and didn't speak the language of my Dad and grandparents. I enjoyed the services but sometimes felt like an outsider. I learned how to do stuff by watching others and always felt awkward and clumsy in church.

We went to church so infrequently that I didn't experience the faith. Sure, I respected the icons and the pictures. God didn't seem real to me at the time so most of my time in church was spent wondering if God was real or not.

I got caught up in the culture that said, "Whatever is right for you is right for you." I had no idea that the Orthodox faith was as rich as it was or that it was full of the spirituality I craved. Back then I was more shy so I never picked up the phone and called a priest. I just isolated with my doubts and became a spiritual drifter.

Because my knowledge of Christianity was rudimentary at best things like apostolic succession or tradition had no meaning to me. You can't write a poem if you don't speak the language.

I had anger and rebellion in me so not only did I leave Orthodoxy but I almost became a Buddhist. This ties back into not having experienced God. I am of the belief that God reveals himself if you sincerely seek him. At that point I hadn't experienced God. I had experienced a series of calamities which in my mind pointed to their being no God.

Lately I've been scouring the Bible and I'm noticing the Church of Antioch pops up all over the place in Acts. I was also reading about the Church in Jerusalem. It is fascinating to think that the traditions the early Apostles practiced are alive and well.

I still run into some roadblocks which I will discuss with the priest. In particular I think of how the early Christians didn't want to admit non-Jews. I think of Peter's visit to Cornelious (The Roman Centurian). I still struggle with the concept that one group of Christians can be right and everyone else is wrong. This I will discuss with the priest.

Overall though I think I agree with Orthodox positions more than Protestant positions.

Though some Orthodox and Catholics may scoff at what they call the cheap grace of the Protestants, the inclusiveness of some of the evengelical Churches has introduced a lot of people to the basics of Christianity. The reeled me in when I was convinced that I tried Christianity and it didn't work. At that point I thought that the bible was a great book but somebody left the "how to" part of it out.

In that sense I appreciate the ascetic side of Orthodoxy because I am convinced for me, that I have to actively participate. I can't just sit back, recite a simple prayer and think everythings ok. My heart tells me I have to strive to be better which I am trying to do. I'm not saying it's all through works but I think striving to be better is part of it.

That's my ramble as a fellow seeker.

Prodigal 7

thank you so much for your response brother. keep me updated if you want to or if you can with how your sessions with the priest goes. i'd sure like to know how it goes for you. God Bless you!

Im_A · Apr 30, 2007

Prodigal7 said:
Dear Tattedsaint,

I can relate to your spiritual search. I was baptized Orthodox but my family rarely went to church. My mom was Catholic, my dad was Orthodox, and they sent me to a Protestant based Christian school twice as a kid (4th grade and 6th grade). In other words, my early exposures to Christianity were all over the map.

I don't know why people are against Orthodoxy but I know why I drifted. I am currently exploring Orthodoxy and may return to it. I have a lunch scheduled with a priest Wednesday and am looking forward to it. I just hope I don't get nervous and forget all my questions.

I drifted because;

I was an Americanized Ukranian/Russian and didn't speak the language of my Dad and grandparents. I enjoyed the services but sometimes felt like an outsider. I learned how to do stuff by watching others and always felt awkward and clumsy in church.

We went to church so infrequently that I didn't experience the faith. Sure, I respected the icons and the pictures. God didn't seem real to me at the time so most of my time in church was spent wondering if God was real or not.

I got caught up in the culture that said, "Whatever is right for you is right for you." I had no idea that the Orthodox faith was as rich as it was or that it was full of the spirituality I craved. Back then I was more shy so I never picked up the phone and called a priest. I just isolated with my doubts and became a spiritual drifter.

Because my knowledge of Christianity was rudimentary at best things like apostolic succession or tradition had no meaning to me. You can't write a poem if you don't speak the language.

I had anger and rebellion in me so not only did I leave Orthodoxy but I almost became a Buddhist. This ties back into not having experienced God. I am of the belief that God reveals himself if you sincerely seek him. At that point I hadn't experienced God. I had experienced a series of calamities which in my mind pointed to their being no God.

Lately I've been scouring the Bible and I'm noticing the Church of Antioch pops up all over the place in Acts. I was also reading about the Church in Jerusalem. It is fascinating to think that the traditions the early Apostles practiced are alive and well.

I still run into some roadblocks which I will discuss with the priest. In particular I think of how the early Christians didn't want to admit non-Jews. I think of Peter's visit to Cornelious (The Roman Centurian). I still struggle with the concept that one group of Christians can be right and everyone else is wrong. This I will discuss with the priest.

Overall though I think I agree with Orthodox positions more than Protestant positions.

Though some Orthodox and Catholics may scoff at what they call the cheap grace of the Protestants, the inclusiveness of some of the evengelical Churches has introduced a lot of people to the basics of Christianity. The reeled me in when I was convinced that I tried Christianity and it didn't work. At that point I thought that the bible was a great book but somebody left the "how to" part of it out.

In that sense I appreciate the ascetic side of Orthodoxy because I am convinced for me, that I have to actively participate. I can't just sit back, recite a simple prayer and think everythings ok. My heart tells me I have to strive to be better which I am trying to do. I'm not saying it's all through works but I think striving to be better is part of it.

That's my ramble as a fellow seeker.

Prodigal 7

and btw Prodigal7, that is rather odd how you mentioned about you looking into Buddhism. i have done the same as well. thank you again bro.

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