The rapture in the Torah

[Johan2222]

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The ordinances that were against us was the law and the law dealt with meat and drink and holy days and new moons and sabbath days and Paul says that these revealed prophecy (they are a shadow of things to come).

Seeing many people today dispute the doctrine of the rapture, would anyone here therefore like to explain the prophecy of the rapture which is revealed in the law?

 

[RandyPNW]

Colossians 2:16-17 KJV
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Seeing that Paul is speaking in verse 16 of the law and things pertaining to the law, is the rapture revealed in foreshadowing prophecy in the law?

The "Rapture," or the seizure of the living Church up into glorification is only implied in the Law in the sense that the Temple represents an objective for Israel that is only achieved when the High Priest, once a year, enters into God's Presence in the Holy of Holies.

The Tabernacle was constructed after the pattern of this structure in heaven. And so, the Temple presented a heavenly reality by which Israel could find atonement before God through which to enter into His presence in heaven.

The word "Rapture" today, in popular parlance, represents a Pretribulational disappearance of Christian bodies from the earth and a translation to the clouds of heaven. When Paul referred to this event, he was not identifying by proper name, the "Rapture." He was just describing what happens to the few living saints remaining at the end of the age after they've been faithful to God.

Jesus said that when he returns he may only find few faithful on the earth. This is in contrast to the modern films and books indicating the disappearance of millions upon millions of Christians from the earth. Most Christians today are not "born again," but only attend church, pray to God, read the Bible, and don't understand the abundant life of the Spirit.

They will, I think, have to enter into the Millennial Age and get born again, if they will? But those who go up in the "Rapture" at Christ's Coming will likely be few and far between, and take place in the midst of an international nuclear war. When the dust settles relatively few will be gone in this way.

Remember that Enoch alone departed for heaven amidst the people of his day. And the world was becoming so corrupt afterwards that only Noah's family survived the Flood.

Remember also that only Elijah was "raptured" to heaven in his day, at a time after he had just fought against Baal worship in Israel, when so many in Israel had capitulated to Baal worship. Elijah had thought only he was left in Israel to serve God faithfully.

Only Jesus ascended to heaven in his day, at a time when nearly all Israel rejected him as Messiah. Similarly, as we approach the end of the age, there will be a sudden shift away from Christianity, and all of those nominal Christians will be exposed as less than "born again." May God have mercy!

 

[Clare73]

The "Rapture," or the seizure of the living Church up into glorification is only implied in the Law in the sense that the Temple represents an objective for Israel that is only achieved when the High Priest, once a year, enters into God's Presence in the Holy of Holies.

The Tabernacle was constructed after the pattern of this structure in heaven. And so, the Temple presented a heavenly reality by which Israel could find atonement before God through which to enter into His presence in heaven.

The word "Rapture" today, in popular parlance,

Popular parlance, but not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16) in 1 Th 4:16-17 (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles--Nu 12:6-8), where the catching up (harpazo) occurs at the resurrection at the second coming at the end of time.

represents a Pretribulational disappearance of Christian bodies from the earth and a translation to the clouds of heaven. When Paul referred to this event, he was not identifying by proper name, the "Rapture." He was just describing what happens to the few living saints remaining at the end of the age after they've been faithful to God.

Jesus said that when he returns he may only find few faithful on the earth. This is in contrast to the modern films and books indicating the disappearance of millions upon millions of Christians from the earth. Most Christians today are not "born again," but only attend church, pray to God, read the Bible, and don't understand the abundant life of the Spirit.

They will, I think, have to enter into the Millennial Age and get born again, if they will? But those who go up in the "Rapture" at Christ's Coming will likely be few and far between, and take place in the midst of an international nuclear war. When the dust settles relatively few will be gone in this way.

Remember that Enoch alone departed for heaven amidst the people of his day. And the world was becoming so corrupt afterwards that only Noah's family survived the Flood.

Remember also that only Elijah was "raptured" to heaven in his day, at a time after he had just fought against Baal worship in Israel, when so many in Israel had capitulated to Baal worship. Elijah had thought only he was left in Israel to serve God faithfully.

Only Jesus ascended to heaven in his day, at a time when nearly all Israel rejected him as Messiah. Similarly, as we approach the end of the age, there will be a sudden shift away from Christianity, and all of those nominal Christians will be exposed as less than "born again." May God have mercy!

 

[Johan2222]

Colossians 2:16-17 KJV
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Seeing that Paul is speaking in verse 16 of the law and things pertaining to the law, is the rapture revealed in foreshadowing prophecy in the law?

Here is one place where it is revealed.

THE DOVE IN TWO EIGHTS OF GENESIS

The number 8 in scripture represents (amongst other things) “new beginnings” and the prophecy of Christ’s first advent is revealed in the first double eight in Genesis, chapter 8 verse 8.

Noah was man’s first new beginning and Christ was man’s second new beginning and in the beginning of chapter eight “God remembers Noah”.

Christ (man’s second new beginning) is revealed in a foreshadowing prophecy which begins in Genesis 8.8, saying;

Genesis 8:

[8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

The first time the dove (the symbol of the Holy Spirit in which Christ walked and which revealed Christ at his baptism) is sent forth from the ark in Genesis 8.8, she finds no rest for the sole of her foot. SINGULAR.

The first time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven He finds no rest for the sole of ONE foot.

One of the symptoms of a victim of crucifixion was the heel of the lower foot (which stood directly on the nail) would turn black from the extreme bruising.

Four verses earlier In Genesis chapter 8 verse 4 the ark comes to rest on the 17th day of the seventh month.

The seventh month in the Jewish religious calendar is Nisan and the 17th day is three days after Passover which is the 14th day of Nisan.

Christ was crucified on Passover and three days later rose from the dead on the 17th day of the seventh month to begin new life for mankind on the same day that the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat to begin new life for mankind.

The second time the dove is sent forth she returns to the ark with an olive leaf in her mouth.

The second time Christ is sent forth from heaven He returns to the ark of heaven with the church (His bride). The olive tree in scripture is the symbol of the church.

Only one leaf of the whole tree is carried back to the ark.

Matthew 7:14 NKJV

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Hebrews 12: KJV
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. . . . .[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

John 12:25 KJV
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The third time the dove is sent forth from the ark she does not return to Noah.

The third time Christ is sent forth from the ark of heaven he does not return to God but remains and rules on earth for a thousand years.

Considering the numbers were only added to scripture some four hundred years ago only adds meaning to the verse.

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[RandyPNW]

Popular parlance, but not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching of 1 Th 4:16-17 (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles--Nu 12:6-8), where the catching up (harpazo) occurs at the resurrection at the second coming at the end of time.

Not what I said or either meant. The word "Rapture" is jus a translated word that is popularly used, regardless of what meaning you attach to it. So whether it is popularly referred to as "Rapture" or not, the word for it is there in the Greek. That cannot be questioned.

But how it is *popularly applied* is a different matter and something that can be questioned, as you suggested. It

 

[Dan Perez]

Because , their is NO Greek word for RAPTURE , PERIOD

Check the Greek text or check Vine's or STRONG'S CONCORDANCE and see !!

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

Because , their is NO Greek word for RAPTURE , PERIOD

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

Because , their is NO Greek word for RAPTURE , PERIOD

Check the Greek text or check Vine's or STRONG'S CONCORDANCE and see !!

dan p

You have a point in a sense. Certainly the word "rapture" could be, for some, an acceptable translation from the Greek word "harpazo." The Latin translation of the word "harpazo" is "rapturo," from which we get "rapture" in English.

But as you seem to indicate, the word "rapture" is not chosen by English translators to represent the Greek word "harpazo." And why would they, when the idea is more of a "seizing" than a "rapturous experience of being taken away?" To be "seized" seems to indicate something violent, whereas a "rapturous experience" is the opposite.

It may be that whereas Christ could ascend to heaven without being seized, because he was the Son of God, we may have to be "seized" somewhat violently to get us out of our carnal bodies?

I'm not a language person, but when I get into the thicket I can always call upon my brother, who is very interested in translation work. So I'm just giving my penney's worth here.

I think the word "rapture" has been seized upon by Dispensationalists because they want to turn a simple fact or instance into a major event. It is a fact those who survive until Christ comes will be "caught up" or "seized" out of our carnal existence to join with departed saints to assume new immortal bodies.

We may very well refer to this as an event. But the idea, in Paul's teaching, assumes the form not so much of an "event," but rather, a fact. He is teaching that the departed saints will not be left behind in this glorification event, which is already assumed by Paul that Christians understand will happen.

Paul does not have to re-create an "event" to be named with a proper noun like "Rapture" in order to deliver this teaching. He is just assuming it is already fact in the mind of the Thessalonians, and then assure them that their departed friends and loved ones will not be left behind in the glorification process.

If anything, I think the more important "event" will be our glorification, which will not be denied from the departed saints. Rising up in the air is hardly Paul's focus, in my judgment, nor is what has been "left behind."

 

[Dan Perez]

You have a point in a sense. Certainly the word "rapture" could be, for some, an acceptable translation from the Greek word "harpazo." The Latin translation of the word "harpazo" is "rapturo," from which we get "rapture" in English.

But as you seem to indicate, the word "rapture" is not chosen by English translators to represent the Greek word "harpazo." And why would they, when the idea is more of a "seizing" than a "rapturous experience of being taken away?" To be "seized" seems to indicate something violent, whereas a "rapturous experience" is the opposite.

It may be that whereas Christ could ascend to heaven without being seized, because he was the Son of God, we may have to be "seized" somewhat violently to get us out of our carnal bodies?

I'm not a language person, but when I get into the thicket I can always call upon my brother, who is very interested in translation work. So I'm just giving my penney's worth here.

I think the word "rapture" has been seized upon by Dispensationalists because they want to turn a simple fact or instance into a major event. It is a fact those who survive until Christ comes will be "caught up" or "seized" out of our carnal existence to join with departed saints to assume new immortal bodies.

We may very well refer to this as an event. But the idea, in Paul's teaching, assumes the form not so much of an "event," but rather, a fact. He is teaching that the departed saints will not be left behind in this glorification event, which is already assumed by Paul that Christians understand will happen.

Paul does not have to re-create an "event" to be named with a proper noun like "Rapture" in order to deliver this teaching. He is just assuming it is already fact in the mind of the Thessalonians, and then assure them that their departed friends and loved ones will not be left behind in the glorification process.

If anything, I think the more important "event" will be our glorification, which will not be denied from the departed saints. Rising up in the air is hardly Paul's focus, in my judgment, nor is what has been "left behind."

You says that Paul was NOT ever FOCUS in his ministry and remember that ANGELS are watching at us !!

1Cor 4: 9 check and see !!

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

You says that Paul was NOT ever FOCUS in his ministry and remember that ANGELS are watching at us !!

1Cor 4: 9 check and see !!

dan p

Yes, I believe that angels can be "watchers." But I did not say Paul never had "focus." He was always focused on the ministry.

 

[Dan Perez]

You have a point in a sense. Certainly the word "rapture" could be, for some, an acceptable translation from the Greek word "harpazo." The Latin translation of the word "harpazo" is "rapturo," from which we get "rapture" in English.

But as you seem to indicate, the word "rapture" is not chosen by English translators to represent the Greek word "harpazo." And why would they, when the idea is more of a "seizing" than a "rapturous experience of being taken away?" To be "seized" seems to indicate something violent, whereas a "rapturous experience" is the opposite.

It may be that whereas Christ could ascend to heaven without being seized, because he was the Son of God, we may have to be "seized" somewhat violently to get us out of our carnal bodies?

I'm not a language person, but when I get into the thicket I can always call upon my brother, who is very interested in translation work. So I'm just giving my penney's worth here.

I think the word "rapture" has been seized upon by Dispensationalists because they want to turn a simple fact or instance into a major event. It is a fact those who survive until Christ comes will be "caught up" or "seized" out of our carnal existence to join with departed saints to assume new immortal bodies.

We may very well refer to this as an event. But the idea, in Paul's teaching, assumes the form not so much of an "event," but rather, a fact. He is teaching that the departed saints will not be left behind in this glorification event, which is already assumed by Paul that Christians understand will happen.

Paul does not have to re-create an "event" to be named with a proper noun like "Rapture" in order to deliver this teaching. He is just assuming it is already fact in the mind of the Thessalonians, and then assure them that their departed friends and loved ones will not be left behind in the glorification process.

If anything, I think the more important "event" will be our glorification, which will not be denied from the departed saints. Rising up in the air is hardly Paul's focus, in my judgment, nor is what has been "left behind."

But the Greek word in 1 Thess 4:17 is SHALL BE CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , a verb , in the FUTURE TENSE

PASSIVE VOICE , meaning it is Christ doing the action , and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , meaning you better believe it , and

in the PLURAL

And there are word to describe it , Like COMING // PAROUSIA in 1 Thess 3:13 and in 2 Thess 2:1

and in Gal 1:4 the Greek word EXAIREO // meaning to DELIVER , in the SUBJUNCTIVE MOOD !!

dan p

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

But the Greek word in 1 Thess 4:17 is SHALL BE CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , a verb , in the FUTURE TENSE

PASSIVE VOICE , meaning it is Christ doing the action , and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , meaning you better believe it , and

in the PLURAL

And there are word to describe it , Like COMING // PAROUSIA in 1 Thess 3:13 and in 2 Thess 2:1

and in Gal 1:4 the Greek word EXAIREO // meaning to DELIVER , in the SUBJUNCTIVE MOOD !!

Dan, I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not denying a future Rapture of the Church. I just don't think the Bible calls it "the Rapture." It is a fact more than a named event. The Church that survives until the Coming of the Lord will be glorified. Paul's point is that the departed saints will not be left behind in this glorification event.

 

[Dan Perez]

The "Rapture," or the seizure of the living Church up into glorification is only implied in the Law in the sense that the Temple represents an objective for Israel that is only achieved when the High Priest, once a year, enters into God's Presence in the Holy of Holies.

The Tabernacle was constructed after the pattern of this structure in heaven. And so, the Temple presented a heavenly reality by which Israel could find atonement before God through which to enter into His presence in heaven.

The word "Rapture" today, in popular parlance, represents a Pretribulational disappearance of Christian bodies from the earth and a translation to the clouds of heaven. When Paul referred to this event, he was not identifying by proper name, the "Rapture." He was just describing what happens to the few living saints remaining at the end of the age after they've been faithful to God.

Jesus said that when he returns he may only find few faithful on the earth. This is in contrast to the modern films and books indicating the disappearance of millions upon millions of Christians from the earth. Most Christians today are not "born again," but only attend church, pray to God, read the Bible, and don't understand the abundant life of the Spirit.

They will, I think, have to enter into the Millennial Age and get born again, if they will? But those who go up in the "Rapture" at Christ's Coming will likely be few and far between, and take place in the midst of an international nuclear war. When the dust settles relatively few will be gone in this way.

Remember that Enoch alone departed for heaven amidst the people of his day. And the world was becoming so corrupt afterwards that only Noah's family survived the Flood.

Remember also that only Elijah was "raptured" to heaven in his day, at a time after he had just fought against Baal worship in Israel, when so many in Israel had capitulated to Baal worship. Elijah had thought only he was left in Israel to serve God faithfully.

Only Jesus ascended to heaven in his day, at a time when nearly all Israel rejected him as Messiah. Similarly, as we approach the end of the age, there will be a sudden shift away from Christianity, and all of those nominal Christians will be exposed as less than "born again." May God have mercy!

And the Greek used , RAPTURE is not found in the BIBLE , PERIOD

But do believe that Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA to take up to the CLOUDS .

Then in 1 Thess 4:17 is CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

Also in 2 Thess 2:1 we see that Paul , is the same word , COMING // PAROUSIA .

Next is in 2 Thess 2:3 No one should deceive you in NOT // ME , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE which means

one because EXCEPT the DEPARTURE should first ( what is called a rapture ) and the man of SIN should be REVEALED

the son of DESTRUCTION , and he FEAD verse 4 !!

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

And the Greek used , RAPTURE is not found in the BIBLE , PERIOD

But do believe that Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA to take up to the CLOUDS .

Then in 1 Thess 4:17 is CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

Also in 2 Thess 2:1 we see that Paul , is the same word , COMING // PAROUSIA .

Next is in 2 Thess 2:3 No one should deceive you in NOT // ME , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE which means

one because EXCEPT the DEPARTURE should first ( what is called a rapture ) and the man of SIN should be REVEALED

the son of DESTRUCTION , and he FEAD verse 4 !!

dan p

I've answered this, Dan, and I'm not going to "beat a dead horse." The word harpazo is there. To some it means "to seize." To others it means "to be raptured."

 

[ARBITER01]

Colossians 2:16-17 KJV
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Seeing that Paul is speaking in verse 16 of the law and things pertaining to the law, is the rapture revealed in foreshadowing prophecy in the law?

No.

Jesus taught about the rapture with the Jewish marriage of the bride.

 

[Johan2222]

No.

Jesus taught about the rapture with the Jewish marriage of the bride.

I realise that, but that has nothing to do with my question.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Colossians 2:14-17 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The ordinances that were against us was the law and the law dealt with meat and drink and holy days and new moons and sabbath days and Paul says that these revealed prophecy (they are a shadow of things to come).

Seeing many people today dispute the doctrine of the rapture, would anyone here therefore like to explain the prophecy of the rapture which is revealed in the law?

First define what you mean by "rapture".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RandyPNW]

Seeing many people today dispute the doctrine of the rapture, would anyone here therefore like to explain the prophecy of the rapture which is revealed in the law?

I watched yet another movie last night in which the "Rapture" was referred to as the hope of the Church. It is usually depicted when named "the Rapture" as an any-moment, Pretribulation Rapture of the Church.

What the Law depicts, with respect to this event, is the need for all men in Israel, and by extention in all the world, to die. The sacrificed animals depict the fact that all Israel deserved to die under the Law, which had been put in place by God to represent the curse that initially was delivered to Adam and Eve as a punishment for disobeying God's command. Since the Law exposes all men as sinners, all must die in accordance with the Law.

And so, the Law was given to foreshadow the hope of Israel to overcome death, which is what Paul meant by reiterating Christ's promise to Return and to have God's angels regather us, both living and dead. The dead will be resurrected, and those still living at this time will probably go through a one second period of leaving the body and ascending into the sky to join Christ in this glorification event.

I think, pretty much, those alive and remaining will go through something like a quick "death," the spirit departing the body just as a person's spirit departs the body at death. Instead of bodies flying into the sky, the bodies will probably be left behind as the angels seize the spirits of surviving Christians across the earth.

This "seizure" is what is commonly called "the Rapture," although it does not take place "at any time," but only at the moment Christ returns to defeat the Antichrist. See 2 Thessalonians 2.

It is a "taking" of our spirits in order to be joined, in the clouds, with new glorified bodies. It is not an escape from a "7 year Tribulation period." The Reign of Antichrist is not called, in the Bible, "the Tribulation Period," nor does his reign last 7 years--it lasts only 3.5 years.

The "Tribulation Period," referred to by Jesus, is actually the "Jewish Diaspora," which had only begun in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. It will end when Christ comes back, delivers Israel, politically, from the nations, and establishes his Kingdom through the reign of the Church on earth.

At that time not just Israel will be restored, but many Christian nations, as well. Those not yet following the Lord fully, including many nominal Christians, will come to know the Lord more fully at this time. Those who had been fully following the Lord will be glorified at Christ's Coming to reign, I believe, over the earth from heaven with Christ.

And no nation on earth will be allowed for a thousand years to disrupt nations of God until a final rebellion from Satan takes place at the end of this thousand year period. Yes, I'm a Premillennialist and a Postribulationist. There are other views, and I would invite any and all to determine for themselves what they believe the Bible actually teaches.

 

[Johan2222]

First define what you mean by "rapture".

-CryptoLutheran

Define it?
No, but here are some scriptures which deal with it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Luke 17:36 KJV
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Hebrews 9:28 KJV
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[RandyPNW]

I am not willing to define it, but here are some of the scriptures which deal with it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Luke 17:36 KJV
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Hebrews 9:28 KJV
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I don't believe the Luke 17.36 passage refers to "the Rapture." The Romans came upon two Jews, who fell upon their fate one way or the other. Either one may go away into exile, or one may be kept working the fields for the Romans and for their own sustenance under captivity. It was entirely a judgment. The one "taken away" was *not* Raptured!

Jesus asked where the place was that they will be essentially "kidnapped?" Jesus indicated it would be at the place where the Romans gathered at Jerusalem.

Luke 17.37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”