The Problem is "Out There" or is it?

[All Becomes New]

It has become common to blame things on other entities other than personal responsibility.

I can imagine people blaming church attendance on who is president or Covid or whatever else.

I can see people blaming the lack of charity on it being an election year or the economy or church programs or whatever else.

I can see people blaming not reading their Bibles on the church not being relevant or yoga or whatever else.

And on it goes.

When are we going to wake up? When will we realize that the reason for a lot of the moral problems we are having today is not because of external things, but because our society in the West (and elsewhere) is just not Christian? We don't have a Christian mindset in the West. Maybe we used to years and years ago, but we certainly do not any longer. If you want to blame something, blame the rising demographic of "spiritual but not religious" or the "nones" or the cancer of individualism (everyone has a tattoo today).

The Truth is that we do not live in a Christian society. We live in a post-Christian society as Barak Obama has said.

Do you want to make a difference? Of course, you do. So get on your knees and pray for revival. Pray for a move of the Holy Spirit in our society like the Asbury Outpouring. That is the only thing that is going to save our country.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It has become common to blame things on other entities other than personal responsibility.

I can imagine people blaming church attendance on who is president or Covid or whatever else.

I can see people blaming the lack of charity on it being an election year or the economy or church programs or whatever else.

I can see people blaming not reading their Bibles on the church not being relevant or yoga or whatever else.

And on it goes.

When are we going to wake up? When will we realize that the reason for a lot of the moral problems we are having today is not because of external things, but because our society in the West (and elsewhere) is just not Christian? We don't have a Christian mindset in the West. Maybe we used to years and years ago, but we certainly do not any longer. If you want to blame something, blame the rising demographic of "spiritual but not religious" or the "nones" or the cancer of individualism (everyone has a tattoo today).

The Truth is that we do not live in a Christian society. We live in a post-Christian society as Barak Obama has said.

Do you want to make a difference? Of course, you do. So get on your knees and pray for revival. Pray for a move of the Holy Spirit in our society like the Asbury Outpouring. That is the only thing that is going to save our country.

Mr. J, with all that has been transpiring in the world, not just today, but always, do you think it is possible that in addition to our own personal moral failures there could be entities "out there" who are also at fault for prompting and facilitating those same failures?

I'm just asking because where the application of criticism and analysis is a part of discerning what's "really going on" in the West on a spiritual level, I keep coming back to C.S. Lewis,' The Screwtape Letters.

Moreover, in analyzing what you've suggested here, would it be fair for me to say that Western society is an "external" thing to what I'm experiencing and perceiving between me and the Lord and within the interior of my mind? If Western society is on the outside of me, and I live in it, then how is it not external things that are tempting us and demoralizing us each and every day and ruining our morality and ethics?

By the way, I think you OP is a thought provoking post, so I hope you don't take it that I'm attempting to undermine it. I'm not. I think it's a good discussion topic for this forum.

 

[All Becomes New]

Mr. J, with all that has always been transpiring in the world, not just today, but always, do you think it may possible that in addition to our own personal moral failures there could be entities "out there" who are also at fault for prompting and facilitating those same failures?

I'm just asking because where the application of criticism and analysis are a part of discerning what's "really going on" on a spiritual level, I keep coming back to C.S. Lewis,' The Screwtape Letters.

Moreover, in analyzing what you've suggested here, would it be fair for me to say that Western society is an "external" thing to what I'm experiencing and perceiving between me and the Lord within the interior of my mind? If Western society is on the outside of me, and I live in it, then how is it not external things that are tempting us and demoralizing us each and every day and ruining our morality and ethics?

By the way, I think you OP is a thought provoking post, so I hope you don't take it that I'm attempting to undermine it. I'm not. I think it's a good discussion topic for this forum.

The question is whether there has ever been a strong Christian presence in the West. I think the evidence for that is overwhelming in the affirmative. I agree with you that Satan tries to keep people from living the life they should for Christ. I agree that Satan blinds the world, which is his dominion.

It is important for us to realize from whence we have fallen in the West. The West is built upon Christian principles. That is no longer a thing. I am reminded of this verse which shows the current state of Christianity in the West.

1 Peter 2:11-12
"Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."

That is the emphasis of my post.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The question is whether there has ever been a strong Christian presence in the West. I think the evidence for that is overwhelming in the affirmative. I agree with you that Satan tries to keep people from living the life they should for Christ. I agree that Satan blinds the world, which is his dominion.

It is important for us to realize from whence we have fallen in the West. The West is built upon Christian principles. That is no longer a thing. I am reminded of this verse which shows the current state of Christianity in the West.

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not sure if I agree. Maybe I do, but I'd like some clarification that may help me understand. From what you know about the West, how is it built upon Christian principles?

1 Peter 2:11-12
"Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."

That is the emphasis of my post.

That's a very pertinent emphasis you're bringing to our attention here. It's definitely something for all of us to think thoroughly about. Prayer is important in the midst of whatever thinking on this matter we each need to do, too.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

People who suggest that the answer is not to build a Christian society, but a society where freedom of the individual to behave in ways counter to Christianity is the path forward are simply not being serious. People by in large are moved by incentives and all the incentives of the modern secular societies we live in are to live in a way which is not in accordance with Christianity. We act baffled at why Christianity is declining but it's obvious, education is thoroughly secular, our media and the stories we tell are thoroughly secular, when Christians try to get involved in power they are counter signaled by fellow Christians and establishment Churches follow the world instead of the Gospel.

 

[All Becomes New]

From what you understand about the West, how is it built upon Christian principles?

Philaphropic principles came largely from the Church. Hospitals, mass education, colleges, help for the poor, ending slavery, the current plight against abortion, and LGBTQ+ agenda. All these things help build up a society that flourishes. But hospitals and colleges are becoming (or have been for some time) businesses and institutions that are actually anti-Christian. The West has flourished for a good amount of time. This is because of Christianity, not in spite of it. So when you take a fundamental thing like belief in God away, society crumbles. That is one way of seeing the impact of Christianity on the West.

 

[All Becomes New]

People who suggest that the answer is not to build a Christian society, but a society where freedom of the individual to behave in ways counter to Christianity is the path forward are simply not being serious. People by in large are moved by incentives and all the incentives of the modern secular societies we live in are to live in a way which is not in accordance with Christianity. We act baffled at why Christianity is declining but it's obvious, education is thoroughly secular, our media and the stories we tell are thoroughly secular, when Christians try to get involved in power they are counter signaled by fellow Christians and establishment Churches follow the world instead of the Gospel.

Those influenced so easily by these things do not love the Truth. As such, it is hard to see that they were ever saved in the first place.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Philaphropic principles came largely from the Church. Hospitals, mass education, colleges, help for the poor, ending slavery, the current plight against abortion, and LGBTQ+ agenda. All these things help build up a society that flourishes. But hospitals and colleges are becoming (or have been for some time) businesses and institutions that are actually anti-Christian. The West has flourished for a good amount of time. This is because of Christianity, not in spite of it. So when you take a fundamental thing like belief in God away, society crumbles. That is one way of seeing the impact of Christianity on the West.

I think I generally agree with what you're saying here. Christianity has historically injected some positive, humanitarian innovations into the European world, like those you've listed, and you're right that these things have enabled the West to flourish.

But from the rest of what you've said, it almost sounds like you're implying that people are sort of falling away from all that was previously established within the boundaries of Christian ideals. Would you say this is true, or are you thinking there's something else amiss in the West, causing us to head into anti-Christian social marshes?

 

[All Becomes New]

Would you say this true, or are you thinking there's something else amiss in the West, causing us to head into anti-Christian social marshes?

To be frank, I am not God and so I do not know what the root cause is for the fall of the Christian ideals in the West. It is very well possible that Satan was able to get a foothold in the West sometime in the past. I do not blame this all on politics or cultural norms like the sexual revolution and such which simply kicks the can down the road and doesn't answer why. So God has allowed this to happen, no doubt through Satan. Why? IDK.

 

[eleos1954]

It has become common to blame things on other entities other than personal responsibility.

I can imagine people blaming church attendance on who is president or Covid or whatever else.

I can see people blaming the lack of charity on it being an election year or the economy or church programs or whatever else.

I can see people blaming not reading their Bibles on the church not being relevant or yoga or whatever else.

And on it goes.

When are we going to wake up? When will we realize that the reason for a lot of the moral problems we are having today is not because of external things, but because our society in the West (and elsewhere) is just not Christian? We don't have a Christian mindset in the West. Maybe we used to years and years ago, but we certainly do not any longer. If you want to blame something, blame the rising demographic of "spiritual but not religious" or the "nones" or the cancer of individualism (everyone has a tattoo today).

The Truth is that we do not live in a Christian society. We live in a post-Christian society as Barak Obama has said.

Do you want to make a difference? Of course, you do. So get on your knees and pray for revival. Pray for a move of the Holy Spirit in our society like the Asbury Outpouring. That is the only thing that is going to save our country.

cancer of individualism

Individualism in itself is not a cancer .... selfishness is.

The Bible teaches forms of individualism

The Bible places an extremely high value on the individual. It particularly highlights the need for individual moral reasoning and culpability (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 2:6).

If we don't have individualism then by default we have collectivism. The extreme versions of collectivism is that it completely discards individual rights and responsibility in service of the so-called “greater good.”

The battle between individualism and collectivism is between human beings and their own sin nature. If we were able to follow God perfectly and abide in perfect unity, we’d find that what is good for the individual is also good for the many.

Individualism is not necessarily a bad thing (a cancer)

 

[All Becomes New]

Individualism in itself is not a cancer .... selfishness is.

The Bible teaches forms of individualism

The Bible places an extremely high value on the individual. It particularly highlights the need for individual moral reasoning and culpability (Ezekiel 18:20; Romans 2:6).

If we don't have individualism then by default we have collectivism. The extreme versions of collectivism is that it completely discards individual rights and responsibility in service of the so-called “greater good.”

The battle between individualism and collectivism is between human beings and their own sin nature. If we were able to follow God perfectly and abide in perfect unity, we’d find that what is good for the individual is also good for the many.

Individualism is not necessarily a bad thing (a cancer)

The Church is all about community, not my individual rights.