The Midas Touch by Hagin?

[KM Richards]

Anybody read "The Midas Touch" by Kenneth E. Hagin?

Somebody was telling me it was a good, balanced book on prosperity so I thought I'd ask to see if it's a good read and worth getting.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Anybody read "The Midas Touch" by Kenneth E. Hagin?

Somebody was telling me it was a good, balanced book on prosperity so I thought I'd ask to see if it's a good read and worth getting.

It was a very good read. It deals with many of the prosperity gospel's extremes. It is worth the read just for the balanced teaching concerning prosperity.

 

[pk4yahweh]

I agree - very good. It really helped me with some of the extremes I wasn't comfortable with. And coming from such a great man made the truth within it's pages that much more solid.

 

[KM Richards]

There's a rumor goin round (I can't find it on Hagin's website) that Kenneth Hagin called a meeting with numerous WOF ministers and rebuked them and warned them that this book was going to be publically "correcting" some sort of "extreme" doctines concerning material wealth.

But, I don't see anywhere that this can be verified...the anti-WOF websites have all sorts of stuff so that's not a good source.

I guess I need to read the book...

 

[KM Richards]

OK, so apparently...Hagin claims the 100 fold return is not biblical for finances...which is really odd...

Mark 10:29,30
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Seems Jesus is actually saying that whatever you "leave" for His sake and the sake of the Gospel... you shall receive 100 fold now in this time (sure seems like He's talkin 'bout while we're living on earth)...the same things you left.

I guess the question is...is donating money to support the gospel the same as "leaving money for Jesus sake and the Gospel"....

This has to be related to Mark 4:14-20...cause it was God that tells us to give to Him!

Mark 4:14-20
The sower soweth the word.
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

And, if it is...then the rate of return is going to be dependent on how we receive (and keep the devil's junk OUT) and walk in the Word that is sown in to us conncering God's desire to bless me and increase my seed sown (2 Corinthians 9:10)...is not that talking about the seed I sow growing up and bearing fruit??? I think it is actually...

Not sure why Hagin would not like this...although I'm sure such large houses and mega expensive cars are a little overkill.

I could live wonderful in a 200k home and a 50k pickup truck...I'd be good!...so I could give all my millions in to the Gospel...so I'm going to continue running my spreadsheet where I actually keep track of how much a 100 fold return is for me based on what I've given.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Anybody read "The Midas Touch" by Kenneth E. Hagin?

Somebody was telling me it was a good, balanced book on prosperity so I thought I'd ask to see if it's a good read and worth getting.

Yes, excellent and balanced book. I should be read for understanding; some, even in WoF, who embrace mammon and pride actually teach against this book.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

OK, so apparently...Hagin claims the 100 fold return is not biblical for finances...which is really odd...

Mark 10:29,30
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

So have you done this (or known anyone who has actually done this)? I mean done what this verse literally says, since we are talking about a literal 100 fold return. Did they get 100 fold sisters back? Fathers? Mothers? Do they have 100 fold the number of wives than they had before?

Seems Jesus is actually saying that whatever you "leave" for His sake and the sake of the Gospel... you shall receive 100 fold now in this time (sure seems like He's talkin 'bout while we're living on earth)...the same things you left.

Yes, here and there: "now in this time....and in the world to come eternal life."

Note He also promises persecutions with it. :o

I guess the question is...is donating money to support the gospel the same as "leaving money for Jesus sake and the Gospel"....

First answer would be: is it listed?
Followup answer would be: if we could extend this verse logically to giving then we are back to what really is the 100 fold return? Fred K.C. Price once taught at our church that if the 100 fold return was literally that, then with his wealth he could, through giving, bankrupt the world in a relatively short time.

From the first post in this sub-thread:

There's a rumor goin round (I can't find it on Hagin's website) that Kenneth Hagin called a meeting with numerous WOF ministers and rebuked them and warned them that this book was going to be publically "correcting" some sort of "extreme" doctines concerning material wealth.

From people I've talked with who claim to have attended that meeting, the rebuking from Hagin was, in part, because some misleading ministries were embracing wealth and dismissing all other Gospel messages. When they would touch on salvation or other topics, it would always come back to the wealth that the congregant could have -- and ultimately the wealth they get back if they give to that misleading ministry.

Hagin's point was that if you are focusing on wealth (or any other prosperity topic), instead of Jesus, then you are perverting the Gospel.

 

[KM Richards]

So have you done this (or known anyone who has actually done this)? I mean done what this verse literally says, since we are talking about a literal 100 fold return. Did they get 100 fold sisters back? Fathers? Mothers? Do they have 100 fold the number of wives than they had before?

It is a seedtime and harvest principle that...what you sow, is what you reap. (notice he said what you leave will be returned)

In this case, Jesus is saying what you lose on account of Him, He is going to make it up to you...so, it's very possible to have 100 dads in the Lord, a mothers in the Lord...

100 wives??? Now c'mon...you can get what amounts to be a wife that is 100 times better than the one a guy might have to leave, but that excludes instructions found in 1 Corinthians 7:27 (the NT does not teach men to leave their wives...but, the wife could leave if she wanted to pursue a life of a non-believer or is a non-believer)

This is also going to have to include the "true riches" of God, which are things money absolutely cannot buy.

Note He also promises persecutions with it.

Jesus said we'd have that in Mark 4:14-20, so that's no biggie...being a WOF guy, you oughtta have some pretty thick skin by now concerning persecution...I know I do.

I just show 'em what the Bible says and tell them: "Congrats! You're now responsible for what you've been shown!"...which usually freaks 'em out, which is what they get for bein smark alecks!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

It is a seedtime and harvest principle that...what you sow, is what you reap. (notice he said what you leave will be returned)

In this case, Jesus is saying what you lose on account of Him, He is going to make it up to you...so, it's very possible to have 100 dads in the Lord, a mothers in the Lord...

Sure. There are places in the Bible that promise a return (even), 7 times what the devil stole, 30-60-100 fold too.

But if we say 100 dads in the Lord, etc., then why not the money too? In other words, the magnified money is not coming to you but is to your account working in the kingdom.

All I'm saying here, like Dr. Price, is don't get too literal with the numbers. Like in the OT where it says God owns the cattle on a thousand hills.....only 1000?? I think He owns it all.

This is also going to have to include the "true riches" of God, which are things money absolutely cannot buy.

Absolute agreement here.






Jesus said we'd have that in Mark 4:14-20, so that's no biggie...being a WOF guy, you oughtta have some pretty thick skin by now concerning persecution...I know I do.

I just show 'em what the Bible says and tell them: "Congrats! You're now responsible for what you've been shown!"...which usually freaks 'em out, which is what they get for bein smark alecks![/quote]

 

[KM Richards]

Well, unless Fred Price has been putting 100s of millions of dollars in to the gospel (his money, not what his church gives), then he's not going to take up all the money in the world anytime soon.

Based on Mark 4:14-20...if I take the promise of God found in 2 Corinthians 9:10 where God will "multiply your seed sown"...how come a fella cannot receive a 100 fold as promised by Jesus concerning getting 100 fold return on the Word that promises the multiplying of my seed sown???

Why doesn't Mark 4:14-20 apply to Luke 6:38 if it's money I'm giving???
Why can't I get a 100 fold return based on Mark 11:24?

And, you'd better be honorable about this because you know Kenneth Copeland is a very strong believer in the 100 fold return as it applies to money and stuff!

Wouldn't want to see you disrespect brother Copeland
since he's the leader of the "movement" you are following....

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Well, unless Fred Price has been putting 100s of millions of dollars in to the gospel (his money, not what his church gives), then he's not going to take up all the money in the world anytime soon.

What Price was saying is that he is wealthy enough to sow a very large amount. When that came back 100 fold, he would immediately sow it again. It shouldn't take long.

Based on Mark 4:14-20...if I take the promise of God found in 2 Corinthians 9:10 where God will "multiply your seed sown"...how come a fella cannot receive a 100 fold as promised by Jesus concerning getting 100 fold return on the Word that promises the multiplying of my seed sown???

Why doesn't Mark 4:14-20 apply to Luke 6:38 if it's money I'm giving???
Why can't I get a 100 fold return based on Mark 11:24?

No one ever said that God does not multiply your seed. He returns it pressed down, shaken together, and running over:

Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
​

But the amount that comes back is up to God and His view of your stewardship.

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
​

You see if God knows that you can't handle the millions, He won't give it to you. When He knows you can handle it, then it will come. Once He give you much, He then expects much from you.

And, you'd better be honorable about this because you know Kenneth Copeland is a very strong believer in the 100 fold return as it applies to money and stuff!

I've not been dishonorable with any answer I've given you. And I agree with you here because I know that Cope understands and preaches the 100 fold return correctly -- not as a mathematical formula.

Wouldn't want to see you disrespect brother Copeland
since he's the leader of the "movement" you are following....

I honor brother Copeland, not simply because he is the leader, but because he is an anointed man of God.

1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
​

 

[KM Richards]

But the amount that comes back is up to God and His view of your stewardship.

If that's true then, Jesus has a serious problem with Mark 4:14-20, as well as with Matthew 13:8, Matthew 13:23, Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:30, Luke 8:8

Jesus has put His Word out that 100 fold return is available concerning God's promises...what are you suggesting here???

Are you recommending that we ignore what Jesus said, or count what He said as being a lie!

You can't have it both ways...

You've dug yourself a hole on this...now you must show us what's going on with this 100 fold return thing...that is IF you even know...you sound like you are confused and unsure on this...

You see if God knows that you can't handle the millions, He won't give it to you. When He knows you can handle it, then it will come. Once He give you much, He then expects much from you.

BUT...you said the 100 fold was not ture???....You can't have it both ways...

I know that Cope understands and preaches the 100 fold return correctly -- not as a mathematical formula.

How would that be??? He says if I give $100, then I will receive $10,000

What "formula" do you claim he is using??? 100 fold, is 100 fold...that's 100 times over what you give!

I honor brother Copeland, not simply because he is the leader, but because he is an anointed man of God.

Well, you'd better get him down from that pedistal...he's no more anointed than you or me in the eyes of Jesus Christ...and he's not THE supreme leader of anything, He's just one of many ministers teaching the Gospel...he puts his pants on oine leg at a time just like anybody else does.

 

[KM Richards]

Concerning the 100 fold return...I've also heard Copeland talk about shooting for 100 in all that we do with God...and even if we don't make the 100, we will most likely be far above those that shoot for much lower expectations.

A big problem amongst word of faith people, ministers mostly, is of course the lavish lifestyles (like who really needs a $7 million house to live in when it's being paid for by donations???) which is holding back more from God's work that what should be (Proverbs 11:24) in favor of one's personal lifestyle.

This is actually a big turn off for "the movement" that pushes people away from this message that is very biblical....and very much needed to properly promote the Kingdom of God.

For me personally, I'd have no problem with having millions...cause I'd live on about 500k a year (spend 200k, save 300K...not counting tithing and giving Caesar what is his...as Jesus instructed), and the rest would go into supporting the Gospel of Jesus Christ....(course, many would have a problem with me keeping that much and would say I need to live on 50k a year like normal folk)

To me, this is what money is for...to put in to that which God is doing. Sure, we can eat out of our own garden, but why are so many taking so much out of their garden for their own personal use???

It's hard to justify a lavish lifestyle like 'ol Donald Trump when your're a preacher...it might be different if you were a business man and earned millions and millions...but even then, why not give most of that to the Gospel?

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 is directly related to Matthew 6:19-21

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I think the time is coming that God is going to start trusting those that are more mature in handling money...to have access to big money, so they can put their money where their mouth is!

Sure seems like some changes are coming...by the hand of the Lord!
But, I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time and potentially not the last...

 

[Alive_Again]

And, if it is...then the rate of return is going to be dependent on how we receive (and keep the devil's junk OUT) and walk in the Word that is sown in to us conncering God's desire to bless me and increase my seed sown (2 Corinthians 9:10)...is not that talking about the seed I sow growing up and bearing fruit??? I think it is actually...

Not sure why Hagin would not like this...although I'm sure such large houses and mega expensive cars are a little overkill.

Hagin drove by me in the parking lot at Rhema (in his Jaguar). I know he didn't have a problem with the love of money.

The 30-60-100 fold harvest is not a financial one. When you plant the seed of the Word in your heart, their is life in the seed, but it is not a harvest. After a period of time and maintenance, a harvest is formed. This is not money. These are the promises of God in your heart. Of course, knowing them experientially can and no doubt will affect the quality of your life. Particularly the ability to ask and receive. The ability to believe in your heart and not doubt concerning specific promises.

No matter how you live your life or desire prosperity, God won't give you anything that would take you from Him. So, how this translates in the financial realm might only be (for a long time) you being able to believe God will provide supernaturally.

In the Old Covenant, your financial prosperity was a sign of your obedience. In the new, God may prove you extensively and His priority if for your Christ character to be developed first.

 

[KM Richards]

The 30-60-100 fold harvest is not a financial one. When you plant the seed of the Word in your heart, their is life in the seed, but it is not a harvest. After a period of time and maintenance, a harvest is formed. This is not money.

OK, so you believe seedtime and harvest doesn't mean every seed produces after it's own kind?
WOF teachers always claims that it does in other areas...why are things suddenly different when it comes to money?

Does this mean you considser Copeland to be a false teacher???
He's been teaching this for years...and so far, has not backed off of it.

No matter how you live your life or desire prosperity, God won't give you anything that would take you from Him.

Agreed. According to Proverbs 1:32, prosperity will destroy those living as fools.

 

[KM Richards]

In the new, God may prove you extensively...

How does this relate to the first Ch of James that states God does not not test and try men with evil?

James 1:12-15
Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

I mean, God knows exactly what we are going to do and He allows us to have free will and chose our own direction (the smart ones choose to follow the Word / Holy Ghost of course)...so, He doesn't need to test or try us for any reason and if He did it could not be any situation that could result in evil coming upon us.

That basically leaves only the theory of God trying man...for man's own benefit....

I think most of the time when people think that are being "tested" or "tried" by God...it's nothing more than God moving you to a higher level and the enemy throws up resistance, and it only looks like God is testing us, when in reality it's God needing things done and the devil is always in resistance.

I do know that if someone thinks God is testing them...they are much more likely to just lay down and let whatever happen..happen, which is a dangerous place to be in.

 

[Philothei]

Mod hat on
Please do not debate! Discussion is allowed but not debate and posting against the Statement of faith of this congregation forum.

If you have to debate please do so by placing a thread in the General Thelogy.

Thank you!


Mod hat off​

 

[Alive_Again]

Let's see if we can stay within the realm of comments without debate. I think holding things up against the Word looking for the more narrow path is a good one worthy of inquiry.

OK, so you believe seedtime and harvest doesn't mean every seed produces after it's own kind?

The seed is the Word not money, right? I believe you can plant the seed of God as your provider and get a harvest of your needs being met by faith. God sets the standard of what our needs are.

I would never call Copeland a false teacher. I have found though that the "give and it shall be given" is not really talking about money directly. It's talking more about reaping what you sow. If you're liberal, you won't lack.

Giving to get is not really scriptural. We receive by grace, right?

I agree that God sent Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, not God. God tests, tries, and proves. The Israelites were in the desert and had to believe the promise before they entered in. God "proved" them in the wilderness and they learned by man lives by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. We have the trial of our faith, by fire. These could be seen as adverse circumstances often brought on by the enemy.

God's not trying to overcome us, but for the sake of the blessing He allows us to be tested, so we rebuke the devil, not God.