The meaning of Jeremiah 8:8

[Wisdom's Child]

Here is a verse which has caused me to do much research today.
It has me abit troubled to be honest.
What do you make of it?

Jeremiah 8:4-9
"You shall say to them, Thus says the LORD: When men fall, do they not rise again? If one turns away, does he not return?
Why then has this people turned away in perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit; they refuse to return.
I have paid attention and listened, but they have not spoken rightly; no man relents of his evil, saying, 'What have I done?' Everyone turns to his own course, like a horse plunging headlong into battle.
Even the stork in the heavens knows her times, and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming, but my people know not the rules of the LORD.
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?

Jeremiah 8:8
You say, "We are wise because we have the teachings and laws of the LORD." But I say that your teachers have turned my words into lies!

Jer 8:8 "'How can you say that you are wise and that you have the LORD'S teachings? The scribes have used their pens to turn these teachings into lies.

It appears to me that The Lord is informing Jeremiah that certain Old Testament teachings have been tainted with error and lies because of corrupt scribes making changes to suit themselves.
And it is because of this that men have gone their own ways, backsliding and not returning because they believe that they have the truth when instead they have lies.


How does this apply to today's denominational chaos?

 

[plum]

I don't see it that way, but I can understand how it could be read that way.

i was curious about what word was used for scribe... so in case it helps the discussion, here's the Hebrew in the lexicon: here

 

[BarbB]

I see that you caught that also eirene.

Wisdom's Child - there's a good chance that the word "law" was Torah which is more properly translated "teaching". Also at the time of Jeremiah, a tradition of Oral Torah was beginning whereby a "fence" was being put around Torah to insure that no law would be broken. I.e. Do not boil a kid in his mother's milk became do not mix meat and dairy. Jesus preached against this adding on to Torah also.

My sense of the passage is that God is telling Jeremiah that the additions to his (God's) Torah are not pleasing to him. Not that his Torah is not pleasing. Remember that we are not to add or take away from his word!

 

[Wisdom's Child]

I don't see it that way, but I can understand how it could be read that way.

i was curious about what word was used for scribe... so in case it helps the discussion, here's the Hebrew in the lexicon: here

It definitely applies to my knowledge, The hebrew written language has both a spoken and a numeric quality. One of the ways (I was told) that the scribes would discover if an error existed in a document by adding up the numeric value of all the letters and comparing the result to the known value. (the inspiration behind what is known to today's computer programers as the "check sum").

 

[plum]

It definitely applies to my knowledge, The hebrew written language has both a spoken and a numeric quality. One of the ways (I was told) that the scribes would discover if an error existed in a document by adding up the numeric value of all the letters and comparing the result to the known value. (the inspiration behind what is known to today's computer programers as the "check sum").

that's interesting. I was aware of the aleph-bet being numerical, but hadn't heard about the checking of it through the numbers. pretty nifty. i should ask some folks about that.

I do agree with Barb on this one... that this may have something to do with someone adding to the Torah or subtracting from it.

 

[a_ntv]

It appears to me that The Lord is informing Jeremiah that the Scriptures of The Old Testament, presumably the 5 Books of Moses have been tainted with error because of corrupt scribes making changes to suit themselves.
And it is because of this that men have gone their own ways, backsliding and not returning because they believe that they have the truth when instead they have lies. How does this apply to today's denominational chaos?

IMO the verse is extremly clear.
It is the same teaching of Jesus against pharisees.
Againt who consider the written law more important than the love (for God, for the others) that is on base of the Law.

When the written Law is a value for itself, it becames a lie.

And this can be applicated also to us: who considers a baptism valid from the level of water, who excludes sinners from the sunday service, who condamn monks because the word monk is not in the Bible....

 

[BarbB]

I had heard about the numerical checking of the handwritten copies - it's actually one of the reasons that I'm so certain that what we study is what was written - well except for translation differences, that is. It bolsters my faith to know that the scroll of Isaiah found with the Dead Sea Scrolls is essentially identical to the one used today!

 

[BarbB]

IMO the verse is extremly clear.
It is the same teaching of Jesus against pharisees.
Againt who consider the written law more important than the love (for God, for the others) that is on base of the Law.

When the written Law is a value for itself, it becames a lie.....

If you study carefully, you will see that Jesus was condemning the Pharisees for the way they had added to Torah for Jesus himself followed Torah perfectly, which we are unable to do.

I do agree pretty much with your embolded sentence. I won't say a lie, but rather worthless. Jesus is what drives us to live a holy life which is following the law for love of him. The law will not save. Only Jesus saves! But he said "if you love me you will follow my commandments".

 

[Carey]

would God allow men to taint it and it get widely distributed....LOL

If he can make the Universe he can control what gets widely distributes as his word.

 

[Teke]

Here is a verse which has caused me to do much research today.
It has me abit troubled to be honest.
What do you make of it?








It appears to me that The Lord is informing Jeremiah that certain Old Testament teachings have been tainted with error and lies because of corrupt scribes making changes to suit themselves.
And it is because of this that men have gone their own ways, backsliding and not returning because they believe that they have the truth when instead they have lies.


How does this apply to today's denominational chaos?

It's interesting that you ask about verse 8, but start with verse 4.
Here is a bit of info on verse 4 and "he turn away, and". The Massorah (vol II p54 Ginsburgs edition) calls attention to the fact tht of the two words represented by "turn" and "and", the first letter of the second word belongs to the first word; so that this latter will read "shall they return [to Him], and He not return [to them]?
It is the same word (in Hebrew) in both clauses.

So it applies to todays denom chaos by wrong messages being given.

 

[Wisdom's Child]

It's interesting that you ask about verse 8, but start with verse 4.
Here is a bit of info on verse 4 and "he turn away, and". The Massorah (vol II p54 Ginsburgs edition) calls attention to the fact tht of the two words represented by "turn" and "and", the first letter of the second word belongs to the first word; so that this latter will read "shall they return [to Him], and He not return [to them]?
It is the same word (in Hebrew) in both clauses.

So it applies to todays denom chaos by wrong messages being given.

It is a habit of mine to go back to the beginning of the paragraph when referencing a particular verse. It helps to keep it within it's original context.
That is why I went to verse 4 in asking about verse 8.
To frame the inquiry in the context used.

 

[INRI2]

The meaning of Jeremiah 8:8


Here is a verse which has caused me to do much research today.
It has me abit troubled to be honest.
What do you make of it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by English Standard Version
Jeremiah 8:4-9
"You shall say to them, Thus says the LORD: When men fall, do they not rise again? If one turns away, does he not return?
Why then has this people turned away in perpetual backsliding? They hold fast to deceit; they refuse to return.
I have paid attention and listened, but they have not spoken rightly; no man relents of his evil, saying, 'What have I done?' Everyone turns to his own course, like a horse plunging headlong into battle.
Even the stork in the heavens knows her times, and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming, but my people know not the rules of the LORD.
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Contemporary English Version
Jeremiah 8:8
You say, "We are wise because we have the teachings and laws of the LORD." But I say that your teachers have turned my words into lies!



Quote:
Originally Posted by God's Word Bible
Jer 8:8 "'How can you say that you are wise and that you have the LORD'S teachings? The scribes have used their pens to turn these teachings into lies.



It appears to me that The Lord is informing Jeremiah that certain Old Testament teachings have been tainted with error and lies because of corrupt scribes making changes to suit themselves.
And it is because of this that men have gone their own ways, backsliding and not returning because they believe that they have the truth when instead they have lies.


How does this apply to today's denominational chaos?

There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit."The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said. 38 "But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" 41 "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."

I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."


For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.

I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever

Then the eleven apostles went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."