- Aug 21, 2003
- 10,004
- 1,778
- 60
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!
The Man on the Middle Cross Said I Can Come | Alistair Begg
- Thread starter BBAS 64
- Start date
The repentant thief on the cross is complicated, not well understood and takes time to explain, so what did happen?
The repentant thief started out heaping insults on Christ: Mark 15:32 Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Just after these insults by the chief priests, teachers of the Law, soldiers and the both thieves on their crosses Jesus says:
Matt. 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
Mark 15: 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
After this the one thief seems to repent.
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
After the thief’s repentance and really confessing Jesus as the Messiah, Jesus says:
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
This might have all happened in minutes, so what caused the thief to go from heaping insults to believing the Kingdom was His and He was going there after death?
Context, context, context, context and context:
Who is Jesus addressing with: “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” and then maybe right after, who is Jesus addressing with: “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?”?
Why did Jesus say these words?
You do realize if you interpret Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 to mean God forsook Christ while on the cross, you make the author of Psalm 22 out to be a liar?
How do you reconcile Psalms 22: 24 “For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help”, with the beginning of the Psalm 22: 1 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...” ?
Why did Jesus switch from the Greek to the Hebrew and Aramaic language? (we can discuss the differences in Matt and Mark later but both are not Greek and Matt is all Hebrew and Mark is all Aramaic).
Who is Jesus addressing and why waste His limited precious breath at this time?
Jesus seems to be talking to God before and after this, so if God forsook Christ, who is Christ talking to?
Does God leave us when we are wrongly being torture, humiliated and murdered or can we count on God being with us through anything and everything?
These and many more questions can be answered with an understanding of the style used in writing most of the individual lament of Psalms, how Jesus addresses questions, how the first century Jews knew and quoted Psalms, and who was really needing help at the cross.
1, How did Jesus address questions from satan or those wicked Jewish religious leaders:
Jesus always answered the questions (often not spoken) of the wicked Jewish religious leaders, include the one time he kept silent since saying nothing to obvious false accusations everyone knew was false is the best answer.
The question the Jewish religious leaders just asked Christ while on the cross is not best answered with silence, but with Psalm 22.
Jesus is always trying to move the individual or group right near to Him up to their personal next spiritual level and He does not get real philosophical making broad statement for us directly, but is talking to the audience around Himself and we are just listening in.
Jesus will first use what the person already knows, so He is not always teaching something new, but reminding them of what they already know.
Jesus uses scripture heavily and/or their firsthand knowledge.
2. Who needs to be addressed/answered while Jesus is on the cross?
The question asked just before Jesus makes this statement is: Mark 15: 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Matt. 27: 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
The questions of the priests and teachers of the Law are spiteful and mocking, but like other questions by evil people, Jesus will address questions with what they already know from scripture. It will be to help them, but it often shuts them up, also and Psalm 22 would shut them up.
3. What literary style is being used in Psalms 22 that might explain an apparent contrast?
All Jews would be trained in the diatribe writing style, since most individual Psalms Laments are written this way. In Biblical diatribes the author will present an idea as almost a debate with an imaginary adversary, so the adversary’s support for the wrong answer goes first and we will have a list of support for the wrong answer to the question. Thus, it is all woes to begin with and the positive is closer to the end, like you have in Psalms 22. Paul uses the diatribe method heavily in Romans, which might help sell his ideas to the Roman Jewish Christians, who are being somewhat chastised in Romans.
4. Why use Hebrews and quoting the first sentence of Psalms 22?
Jesus has to use “Eli” or “Eloi” and say them twice to quote the first verse of Psalms 22. since it is not “Father” in that verse. Jesus would normally use “Father” if he was addressing God, so the change would be due to his quoting Psalms 22.
The Psalms were not numbered in the first century and most learned Jews had all the psalms memorized, so they would recognize the first verse to any Psalm. So, if Jesus wanted the Priests and teachers of the Law to remember what Psalm 22 said, all He had to do is quote the first verse.
Jesus using Hebrew would let the Priests and teachers know He was talking to them and would cause them to stop and listen as has happened before.
Bringing the words of Psalms 22 to mind, would stop their mocking and virtually prove He was the Messiah.
God is literally at the elbow of every sinner and he was with Christ all through this ordeal as support.
5. If Jesus is addressing the Jewish Spiritual leaders to shut them up, He would quote Psalms 22 in Hebrew for them, but normal Jewish boys would have learned Psalms 22 in Aramaic or Greek and not Hebrew, which is the way the Jewish thieves on the cross would have remembered it. The Jewish leaders probably would have shut their mouths and walked away after being reminded of what Psalms 22 said and seeing and hearing the prophecy of Psalms 22 being played out in front of them, but what about those thieves being reminded of Psalms 22, who were seeing and hearing the exact same thing?
The repentant thief started out heaping insults on Christ: Mark 15:32 Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Just after these insults by the chief priests, teachers of the Law, soldiers and the both thieves on their crosses Jesus says:
Matt. 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
Mark 15: 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
After this the one thief seems to repent.
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
After the thief’s repentance and really confessing Jesus as the Messiah, Jesus says:
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
This might have all happened in minutes, so what caused the thief to go from heaping insults to believing the Kingdom was His and He was going there after death?
Context, context, context, context and context:
Who is Jesus addressing with: “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” and then maybe right after, who is Jesus addressing with: “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?”?
Why did Jesus say these words?
You do realize if you interpret Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 to mean God forsook Christ while on the cross, you make the author of Psalm 22 out to be a liar?
How do you reconcile Psalms 22: 24 “For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help”, with the beginning of the Psalm 22: 1 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...” ?
Why did Jesus switch from the Greek to the Hebrew and Aramaic language? (we can discuss the differences in Matt and Mark later but both are not Greek and Matt is all Hebrew and Mark is all Aramaic).
Who is Jesus addressing and why waste His limited precious breath at this time?
Jesus seems to be talking to God before and after this, so if God forsook Christ, who is Christ talking to?
Does God leave us when we are wrongly being torture, humiliated and murdered or can we count on God being with us through anything and everything?
These and many more questions can be answered with an understanding of the style used in writing most of the individual lament of Psalms, how Jesus addresses questions, how the first century Jews knew and quoted Psalms, and who was really needing help at the cross.
1, How did Jesus address questions from satan or those wicked Jewish religious leaders:
Jesus always answered the questions (often not spoken) of the wicked Jewish religious leaders, include the one time he kept silent since saying nothing to obvious false accusations everyone knew was false is the best answer.
The question the Jewish religious leaders just asked Christ while on the cross is not best answered with silence, but with Psalm 22.
Jesus is always trying to move the individual or group right near to Him up to their personal next spiritual level and He does not get real philosophical making broad statement for us directly, but is talking to the audience around Himself and we are just listening in.
Jesus will first use what the person already knows, so He is not always teaching something new, but reminding them of what they already know.
Jesus uses scripture heavily and/or their firsthand knowledge.
2. Who needs to be addressed/answered while Jesus is on the cross?
The question asked just before Jesus makes this statement is: Mark 15: 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Matt. 27: 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
The questions of the priests and teachers of the Law are spiteful and mocking, but like other questions by evil people, Jesus will address questions with what they already know from scripture. It will be to help them, but it often shuts them up, also and Psalm 22 would shut them up.
3. What literary style is being used in Psalms 22 that might explain an apparent contrast?
All Jews would be trained in the diatribe writing style, since most individual Psalms Laments are written this way. In Biblical diatribes the author will present an idea as almost a debate with an imaginary adversary, so the adversary’s support for the wrong answer goes first and we will have a list of support for the wrong answer to the question. Thus, it is all woes to begin with and the positive is closer to the end, like you have in Psalms 22. Paul uses the diatribe method heavily in Romans, which might help sell his ideas to the Roman Jewish Christians, who are being somewhat chastised in Romans.
4. Why use Hebrews and quoting the first sentence of Psalms 22?
Jesus has to use “Eli” or “Eloi” and say them twice to quote the first verse of Psalms 22. since it is not “Father” in that verse. Jesus would normally use “Father” if he was addressing God, so the change would be due to his quoting Psalms 22.
The Psalms were not numbered in the first century and most learned Jews had all the psalms memorized, so they would recognize the first verse to any Psalm. So, if Jesus wanted the Priests and teachers of the Law to remember what Psalm 22 said, all He had to do is quote the first verse.
Jesus using Hebrew would let the Priests and teachers know He was talking to them and would cause them to stop and listen as has happened before.
Bringing the words of Psalms 22 to mind, would stop their mocking and virtually prove He was the Messiah.
God is literally at the elbow of every sinner and he was with Christ all through this ordeal as support.
5. If Jesus is addressing the Jewish Spiritual leaders to shut them up, He would quote Psalms 22 in Hebrew for them, but normal Jewish boys would have learned Psalms 22 in Aramaic or Greek and not Hebrew, which is the way the Jewish thieves on the cross would have remembered it. The Jewish leaders probably would have shut their mouths and walked away after being reminded of what Psalms 22 said and seeing and hearing the prophecy of Psalms 22 being played out in front of them, but what about those thieves being reminded of Psalms 22, who were seeing and hearing the exact same thing?
Upvote
0
fhansen
Oldbie
- Sep 3, 2011
- 15,427
- 3,859
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
A bit of ignorance shows through in the video IMO. Either criminal on the cross could’ve turned to Jesus in faith- but only one did. Faith is a gift- of grace-and yet a gift we can reject. So we play a role in that we must say “yes” instead of “no”. We must open the door when He knocks. And that holds true throughout our lives as we choose to pick up our own cross and follow Him daily, doing His will the best we can with the gifts given, showing love as He did, because He did.
The better way to phrase John Newton’s quote IMO BTW:
“God allows us to struggle with sin our whole lives to convince us until our dying breath of our desperate need of grace, of God."
We’ll still struggle with sin and yet that’s not an excuse to remain in or be overcome by or enslaved to it all over again. We now have the grace, the power of the Spirit, to do with Him what we cannot do on our own.
“Apart from Me you can do nothing” John 15:5
“I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.” Phil 4:13
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Similar threads
