The little season in Revelation 6 and 20, two different ones, or one and the same?

[DavidPT]

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


If anyone can undeniably prove these are referring to the same little season in both accounts, this would undeniably prove Amil in that case. What this means of course, if they are one and the same, the little season recorded in Revelation 20 involves the martyring of saints since the little season recorded in Revelation 6 obviously involves the martyring of saints.

My position is this. They are not meaning the same little season. The little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 is meaning prior to the thousand years and explains the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 involving the following saints---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. IOW, per my view, the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13, and that it is also meaning what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 for another.

No matter how one looks at it, it is unreasonable to think the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 does not involve the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13. It is also unreasonable to think that this 42 months does not precede the 2nd coming. This 42 months involve both the beast and the false prophet, where they need to be active in the earth in the end of this age in order to be cast alive into the LOF recorded in Revelation 19 which involves the 2nd coming. Obviously, both are active during the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13. Plus, 42 months compared to an even greater period of time, such as a thousand years, it would not be unreasonable to view 42 months as a little season.

 

[Bob_1000]

Revelation 6:11 - Souls before the resurrection waiting a little season for God to avenge their blood.
Revelation 20:4 - The same souls after the resurrection and the start of the 1000 years still waiting for God to avenge their blood.
Revelation 20:7 - End of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:9 - Satan is loosed for a little season to avenge the blood of the saints.

So the answer is, both little seasons are point to the avenging of the blood of the saints but the little season for the saints starts just prior to the resurrection while the little season of Satan starts at the end of the 1000 years.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 6:11 - Souls before the resurrection waiting a little season for God to avenge their blood.
Revelation 20:4 - The same souls after the resurrection and the start of the 1000 years still waiting for God to avenge their blood.
Revelation 20:7 - End of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:9 - Satan is loosed for a little season to avenge the blood of the saints.

So the answer is, both little seasons are point to the avenging of the blood of the saints but the little season for the saints starts just prior to the resurrection while the little season of Satan starts at the end of the 1000 years.

This is interesting the way you have reasoned this. I need to chew on this for a bit before I try and address your post. You said a thing or two that never crossed my mind before, thus I need time to consider it.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi phrases like this are bracketing the event and if you look at the rest of the context in both cases you can see the term little season is not an equal amount of time for both incidents. 1st the beheading of the saints begins and ends prior to the best being thrown into the lake of fire and they are also to reign with Jesus. Now it starts in Rev and by chapter 13 we see 42 months is left until the LORD comes. This would perhaps indicate that the seals are opened at the beginning of Daniels 7oth week. So this season is relatively short. As far as Satan being bound that little season 1000 years is mentioned as the duration 6 times in that passage and when it is over you have the great white throne judgment. The linear literal sense makes sense.

 

[Bob_1000]

Hi phrases like this are bracketing the event and if you look at the rest of the context in both cases you can see the term little season is not an equal amount of time for both incidents. 1st the beheading of the saints begins and ends prior to the best being thrown into the lake of fire and they are also to reign with Jesus. Now it starts in Rev and by chapter 13 we see 42 months is left until the LORD comes. This would perhaps indicate that the seals are opened at the beginning of Daniels 7oth week. So this season is relatively short. As far as Satan being bound that little season 1000 years is mentioned as the duration 6 times in that passage and when it is over you have the great white throne judgment. The linear literal sense makes sense.

The thousand years is something that I would really like to understand better. I think the thousand years can be understood by understanding when the saints were given white robes (at the cross in my opinion) and when the battle of Gog and Magog is/was. Those two are the brackets of the 1000 years.

 

[DavidPT]

The thousand years is something that I would really like to understand better. I think the thousand years can be understood by understanding when the saints were given white robes (at the cross in my opinion) and when the battle of Gog and Magog is/was. Those two are the brackets of the 1000 years.

As to Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 39 has them dead and buried once God executes His judgment on them. Revelation 20 still has them alive and well following the thousand years. This presents a problem if what is recorded in Revelation 20 is meaning future still, but that one has the judgment concerning Gog/Magog involving the past.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.


But then there is this verse.

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


Could this mean that God allows a remnant to survive in order to deal with the remainder of them at a later time? What does---and leave but the sixth part of thee---imply? Apparently, Scholars and Commentators are divided as to the meaning of that.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 6:11 - Souls before the resurrection waiting a little season for God to avenge their blood.
Revelation 20:4 - The same souls after the resurrection and the start of the 1000 years still waiting for God to avenge their blood.
Revelation 20:7 - End of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:9 - Satan is loosed for a little season to avenge the blood of the saints.

So the answer is, both little seasons are point to the avenging of the blood of the saints but the little season for the saints starts just prior to the resurrection while the little season of Satan starts at the end of the 1000 years.

I have had enough time to consider some of this. I don't see it making sense, that if the martyrs under the altar recorded in Revelation 6 are told to rest a little season, until their fellowservents that should be killed are killed, then He will avenge them, that this also includes them resting a thousand years, then resting another little season since it is at the end of that little season, not the beginning of it, when anyone is devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Therefore, what you seem to be proposing is this--they are to rest a little season, then rest for a thousand years, then rest another little season, then God will avenge them. That couldn't possibly be meaning when God avenges them, 2 little seasons and a thousand years later.

I propose that He avenges them before the beginning of the thousand years, thus during the thousand years they are not still waiting to be avenged, they have already been avenged.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi phrases like this are bracketing the event and if you look at the rest of the context in both cases you can see the term little season is not an equal amount of time for both incidents. 1st the beheading of the saints begins and ends prior to the best being thrown into the lake of fire and they are also to reign with Jesus. Now it starts in Rev and by chapter 13 we see 42 months is left until the LORD comes. This would perhaps indicate that the seals are opened at the beginning of Daniels 7oth week. So this season is relatively short. As far as Satan being bound that little season 1000 years is mentioned as the duration 6 times in that passage and when it is over you have the great white throne judgment. The linear literal sense makes sense.

I'm not certain I'm following everything you submitted here. Your position is not yet entirely clear to me. As to the 42 months that has to be meaning the little season in question per Revelation 6. It is during the 42 months when the beast wages war against the saints, and that during this same 42 months saints are being martyred which matches the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 6 involving the little season. 42 months compared to an even greater period of time appears to fit the definition of a little season. For example. A thousand years wouldn't fit the definition of a little season if compared with 42 months. 42 months would fit the def, though.

 

[Bob_1000]

As to Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 39 has them dead and buried once God executes His judgment on them. Revelation 20 still has them alive and well following the thousand years. This presents a problem if what is recorded in Revelation 20 is meaning future still, but that one has the judgment concerning Gog/Magog involving the past.

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.


But then there is this verse.

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


Could this mean that God allows a remnant to survive in order to deal with the remainder of them at a later time? What does---and leave but the sixth part of thee---imply? Apparently, Scholars and Commentators are divided as to the meaning of that.

I'm gonna look at this some more but go read Ezekiel 32 and tell me if you think the people of Ezekiel 32 are part of the armies of Gog and Magog. This is new to me so I'm not sure but I get the impression that the armies of Ezekiel 38 and 39 are people that are alive but I also think many, many of them are the lost dead people that rose along with the saints that rose with Christ.

I'm not saying any of that is true and it may not be but have an idea that it may be. Read Ezekiel 32 and give me your thoughts on that.

 

[Bob_1000]

I have had enough time to consider some of this. I don't see it making sense, that if the martyrs under the altar recorded in Revelation 6 are told to rest a little season, until their fellowservents that should be killed are killed, then He will avenge them, that this also includes them resting a thousand years, then resting another little season since it is at the end of that little season, not the beginning of it, when anyone is devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Therefore, what you seem to be proposing is this--they are to rest a little season, then rest for a thousand years, then rest another little season, then God will avenge them. That couldn't possibly be meaning when God avenges them, 2 little seasons and a thousand years later.

I propose that He avenges them before the beginning of the thousand years, thus during the thousand years they are not still waiting to be avenged, they have already been avenged.

You may be right but I'm looking at it as God pouring out his wrath on all the people from Cain to whoever slew Zacharias son of Barachias and not just those living at the time of his vengeance. I think the battle of Gog and Magog fits that time frame.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have had enough time to consider some of this. I don't see it making sense, that if the martyrs under the altar recorded in Revelation 6 are told to rest a little season, until their fellowservents that should be killed are killed, then He will avenge them, that this also includes them resting a thousand years, then resting another little season since it is at the end of that little season, not the beginning of it, when anyone is devoured by fire from God out of heaven. Therefore, what you seem to be proposing is this--they are to rest a little season, then rest for a thousand years, then rest another little season, then God will avenge them. That couldn't possibly be meaning when God avenges them, 2 little seasons and a thousand years later.

I propose that He avenges them before the beginning of the thousand years, thus during the thousand years they are not still waiting to be avenged, they have already been avenged.

Revelation 6 is describing time for those who have entered into the eternal realm and are looking at it from an eternal perspective. Revelation 20 on the other hand is describing an earthly reality from an earthly perspective.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 6 is describing time for those who have entered into the eternal realm and are looking at it from an eternal perspective. Revelation 20 on the other hand is describing an earthly reality from an earthly perspective.

Does this mean you think both little seasons are one and the same, or does this mean you don't think they are? If they are one and the same we can then expect to encounter major martyring of saints just prior to the 2nd coming since this would have to be involving us if the 2nd coming happens in our lifetime. Granted, martyrdom of saints has been happening throughout history, yet, Revelation 6 the focus involves a little season, not all of earth history, where it indicates, that until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. IMO, as of Revelation 20:4 and this---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--this indicates it has been fulfilled at this point. Thus we are in the next age here and not still in this present age instead, meaning during the thousand years..

 

[sovereigngrace]

Does this mean you think both little seasons are one and the same, or does this mean you don't think they are? If they are one and the same we can then expect to encounter major martyring of saints just prior to the 2nd coming since this would have to be involving us if the 2nd coming happens in our lifetime. Granted, martyrdom of saints has been happening throughout history, yet, Revelation 6 the focus involves a little season, not all of earth history, where it indicates, that until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. IMO, as of Revelation 20:4 and this---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--this indicates it has been fulfilled at this point. Thus we are in the next age here and not still in this present age instead, meaning during the thousand years..

Revelation 6 shows early Church saints in glory (and in eternity). I link Satan's little season on earth with a time of great persecution and subjugation of the Gospel before Jesus comes.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 6 shows early Church saints in glory (and in eternity).

While I do agree with that, the point in time which John sees them under the altar crying out for vengeance is meaning when the little season they are told to rest is taking place back on earth. That little season does not involve them, they weren't martyred during it, nor I'm I implying you think it does, I'm simply reasoning through things, it is their fellowservants who are yet to be martyred, that are martyred during it. This has to be meaning in the end of this age just prior to the 2nd coming then.

If we do some comparing of things we can deduce some of the following, or at least I can, I can't speak for anyone else, though.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


The above has to be referring to the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This has to be meaning once that same little season has been fulfilled, thus no saints will ever be martyred again at this point in time. What follows is the time of them being avenged, thus the wrath of God.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---obviously have to be meaning these---them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name(Revelation 15:2)

This means in Revelation 20:4 John is seeing the martyrs after they have been avenged, not before they are avenged. This is Premil not Amil. None of this that I submitted in this post involves the little season after the thousand years.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I'm not certain I'm following everything you submitted here. Your position is not yet entirely clear to me. As to the 42 months that has to be meaning the little season in question per Revelation 6. It is during the 42 months when the beast wages war against the saints, and that during this same 42 months saints are being martyred which matches the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 6 involving the little season. 42 months compared to an even greater period of time appears to fit the definition of a little season. For example. A thousand years wouldn't fit the definition of a little season if compared with 42 months. 42 months would fit the def, though.

In Rev 6 the saints are being killed the rider on the white horse is coming to conquer. In chapter 13 he is revealed and has dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation and he has 42 months from then. This 42 months would fit with the abomination of desolation occurring in the middle of the week. So 6 comes before 13 and would limit this season to a 7 year maximum. The LORD returns in power and authority and the little season Satan is bound in 1000 years. The loosed for Dog Magog 2. Then the great white throne; new heaven and Jerusalem and all that.
A often missed voice on this is Dan 7 which also describes the kingdom the comes and covers the earth and having no end begins after a pompous one is persecuting the saints for a time times and half a time. This one is put down then the kingdom is given to the son of man who is before the ancient of day (Jesus).

dan 7
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Now when the pompous one is destroyed just like the beast in Rev and the man of sin in 2nd these it says this. “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

These beast now have lost dominion permanently when the dominion changes hands at the 2nd coming. Now their lives are prolonged for a season and a time. This would confine these beast to the demonic and makes sense that it is a 1000 year season to be loosed for a time of last rebellion. They never get their dominion back and the kingdom that has come does not end it; it relocates.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This means in Revelation 20:4 John is seeing the martyrs after they have been avenged, not before they are avenged. This is Premil not Amil. None of this that I submitted in this post involves the little season after the thousand years.

That is not true. Where does it show before Revelation 20:11-15 that the redeemed are avenged? Nowhere! You force that upon the inspired text. The righteous are simply reigning now in victory until Jesus comes. The second coming and the resurrection/judgment does not come until after Satan's little season. Check out the actual text! Instead of forcing your own bias upon the text, let it speak for itself. It is strongly Amil!

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

The text above shows Christ returning enthroned in glory, whereupon the general resurrection/judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20).

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

 

[DavidPT]

In Rev 6 the saints are being killed the rider on the white horse is coming to conquer. In chapter 13 he is revealed and has dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation and he has 42 months from then. This 42 months would fit with the abomination of desolation occurring in the middle of the week. So 6 comes before 13 and would limit this season to a 7 year maximum. The LORD returns in power and authority and the little season Satan is bound in 1000 years. The loosed for Dog Magog 2. Then the great white throne; new heaven and Jerusalem and all that.
A often missed voice on this is Dan 7 which also describes the kingdom the comes and covers the earth and having no end begins after a pompous one is persecuting the saints for a time times and half a time. This one is put down then the kingdom is given to the son of man who is before the ancient of day (Jesus).

dan 7
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Now when the pompous one is destroyed just like the beast in Rev and the man of sin in 2nd these it says this. “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

These beast now have lost dominion permanently when the dominion changes hands at the 2nd coming. Now their lives are prolonged for a season and a time. This would confine these beast to the demonic and makes sense that it is a 1000 year season to be loosed for a time of last rebellion. They never get their dominion back and the kingdom that has come does not end it; it relocates.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it seems we are pretty much on the same page in regards to the majority of this since I tend to agree with most of what you submitted here. I'm not entirely convinced that the NHNE can only start after the GTWJ, though. Pretty much all Premils agree some of Isaiah 65 involves the thousand years. In those same verses we are told it is meaning during the NHNE. How then can the NHNE only begin after the GWTJ if Isaiah 65 has it already beginning prior to the GWTJ?

 

[DavidPT]

That is not true. Where does it show before Revelation 20:11-15 that the redeemed are avenged? Nowhere! You force that upon the inspired text. The righteous are simply reigning now in victory until Jesus comes. The second coming and the resurrection/judgment does not come until after Satan's little season. Check out the actual text! Instead of forcing your own bias upon the text, let it speak for itself. It is strongly Amil!

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

The text above shows Christ returning enthroned in glory, whereupon the general resurrection/judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20).

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

It's nothing to do with bias on my part, I'm simply agreeing with the text involved and what they lead one to conclude.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

If these are meaning during the little season after the thousand years, that contradicts Revelation 20:4-6. The martyrs recorded in that verse live and reign with Christ a thousand years. No one could be living and reigning with Christ a thousand years during satan's little season after the thousand years, then on top that, be martyred during satan's little season. No saints are being martyred during satan's little season after the thousand years, nor are any saints being martyred during the thousand years. All martyrdom of saints take place before the thousand years begin.

Do or do not these get victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)?

If this answer is yes, which it obviously has to be, this means these are meaning the same ones meant in Revelation 15:2. In Revelation 15:2 John is seeing them at the end of the little season mentioned in Revelation 6:11, and prior to them being avenged. In Revelation 20:4, the fact John is seeing these same martyrs during the thousand years, thus satan's little season still lies ahead, this means John is now seeing them after they have been avenged, not before they are avenged instead. The only way I could be wrong, none of the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 are meaning any of the martyrs recorded in Revelation 15:2. But if they are meaning the same martyrs, Revelation 20:4 proves that Revelation 15:2 is meaning prior to the thousand years, not after it instead.

Can Amils undeniably prove with Scripture that the martyrs recorded in Revelation 15:2 are not meaning any of the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 which did not worship the beast, etc?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


If anyone can undeniably prove these are referring to the same little season in both accounts, this would undeniably prove Amil in that case. What this means of course, if they are one and the same, the little season recorded in Revelation 20 involves the martyring of saints since the little season recorded in Revelation 6 obviously involves the martyring of saints.

My position is this. They are not meaning the same little season. The little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 is meaning prior to the thousand years and explains the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 involving the following saints---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. IOW, per my view, the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13, and that it is also meaning what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 for another.

No matter how one looks at it, it is unreasonable to think the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 does not involve the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13. It is also unreasonable to think that this 42 months does not precede the 2nd coming. This 42 months involve both the beast and the false prophet, where they need to be active in the earth in the end of this age in order to be cast alive into the LOF recorded in Revelation 19 which involves the 2nd coming. Obviously, both are active during the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13. Plus, 42 months compared to an even greater period of time, such as a thousand years, it would not be unreasonable to view 42 months as a little season.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Notice that it says regarding "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" that "their fellowservants also and their brethren...should be killed as they were". How can their fellowservants/brethren be killed as they were if only the fellowservants/brethren are killed by the beast, but the souls under the altar were not killed by the beast? What does it mean for their fellowservants/brethren to be killed as they were if it doesn't mean their fellowservants/brethren would be killed by the beast as the souls John saw under the altar were?

Your belief is entirely dependent on the 42 months being a literal 42 months and that believers are only martyred by the beast during that literal short amount of time. But, I don't believe the 42 months is meant to be interpreted literally like that. I believe the 42 months/1260 days referenced in Revelation 11 is the same time period as the 1260 days and "times, time and half a time" of Revelation 12 and the 42 months referenced in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, the 1260 days/times, time and half a time begin after the ascension of Christ when Satan was cast out of heaven. So, the 42 months/1260 days/times, time and half a time cannot be literal and cannot just be a reference to a little season in the future.

During the 42 months/1260 days, the two witnesses, which I believe symbolicaly represent the church, prophesy and give their testimony (preach the gospel) to the world. I see the 42 months as representing the New Testament time period. I would see the 3.5 days mentioned in Revelation 11 as representing Satan's little season rather than the 42 months/1260 days.

I do believe that the little season of Revelation 6:11 is the same as Satan's little season. I believe the seals, trumpets and vials are all generally parallel to each other. At the fifth trumpet, the bottomless pit/abyss is opened and it portrays demons symbolically as locusts coming out of the bottomless pit at that time. Their king is the angel of the bottomless pit. What other king do demons/fallen angels have except for Satan (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41)? No one. Satan has other names and I believe Abaddon/Apollyon is one of them. I believe he is referred to by that name in Revelation 9 because it means Destroyer and his time to wreak havoc and cause destruction without restraint will be during his little season. So, if the fifth trumpet is parallel to the fifth seal, as I believe, and Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit/abyss at the fifth trumpet, then it only follows that the little season that will occur following the opening of the fifth seal matches up with Satan's little season.

To me, one of the keys to this discussion is determining whether or not the 42 months is a literal 42 months. If it is, then you equating that with the little season of Revelation 6:11 would be a viable possibility since a literal 42 months would obviously qualify as being a little season. But, like I said, I believe it refers to the New Testament time period.

Another key is to determine who or what the beast is. I've asked you to tell me who or what you believe the beast is before and I never get a response. How can I take your understanding of things relating to the beast seriously if you can't even tell me who or what you think the beast is?

To me, the beast represents this evil world which has Satan as its god (2 Cor 4:4). So, it represents the kingdom of Satan at any given time in history. At times in the past, this evil world has been dominated by world empires like the ancient Babylonian, Media-Persia, Greek and Roman empires. But, the beast generally represents the kingdom of Satan regardless of what that may look like at any given time in history. So, the beast has been opposing and killing believers for a long time already and not just during a 42 month little season in the future as you believe. I believe the souls John saw in Revelation 6:9 were killed by the beast and the ones who were yet to be killed during a little season that occurs after the opening of the fifth seal are killed by the beast as well.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Can Amils undeniably prove with Scripture that the martyrs recorded in Revelation 15:2 are not meaning any of the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 which did not worship the beast, etc?

Why would we want to do that when we believe that all martyrs refused to worship the beast? We don't need to prove anything according to YOUR understanding of the beast because we believe your understanding of the beast is wrong.