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The (Literal) Plagues in Revelation

Achilles6129

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The plagues in Revelation are indeed literal plagues. This is proven simply by looking at the description of some of the plagues and the words of Jesus Christ himself, whose words prove that the plagues must be literal. Let's look at the evidence:

"21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Mt. 24:21-22

These verses alone (and there are more) prove that the plagues in the book of Revelation must be mostly literal. This time of tribulation in the book of Revelation must be even greater than the Holocaust, greater than anything Mao or Stalin did, greater than any war that was ever fought. Indeed, so great is the tribulation that unless those days were shortened (and I believe it is a literal shortening of the 24 hour day) everyone would die. But there is even more evidence that the plagues are literal in the book of Daniel:

"1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. " Dan. 12:1

This must be what Christ is referring to in Mt. 24. Yet there is even more evidence:

"25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Lu. 21:25-26

This verse plainly proves the events in Revelation are not symbolic at all, but are literal. The nations are distressed and "perplexed." It is interesting to study the word "perplexed" in Greek:

Perplexity, #640, aporia, (Thayer) the state of one who is in perplexity. Vine's: "akin to A, No. 1, is translated "perplexity" in Luk 21:25 (lit., "at a loss for a way," a, negative, poros, "a way, resource"), of the distress of nations, finding no solution to their embarrassments; papyri illustrations are in the sense of being at one's wit's end, at a loss how to proceed, without resources."

Obviously they are "at a loss for a way" because of the terrible things that are happening to the planet. The other words are also useful to study: Distress, #4928, synoche, (Thayer)
1) a holding together, a narrowing
2) the contracting part of a way
3) metaph. straits, distress, anguish

Looking after, #4329, prosdokia, (Thayer) 1) expectation (whether good or evil).

So great and terrible will be the events happening to the earth that people will actually die of heart attacks (men's hearts failing them for fear). What could possibly be more literal than that?

However, there is also plenty of evidence from the text itself (in Revelation) that the plagues are indeed literal. Consider:

"3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Rev. 16:3-6

We can clearly see here that if these two plagues are not literal then the irony is lost. The purpose is obvious - they have killed the saints/prophets, so now they are getting blood to drink. More evidence of literal plagues:

"8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory." Rev. 16:8-9

This plague must also be literal - the description of it shows that.

"10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds." Rev. 16:10-11

This shows that their pains and sores are literal, which also refers back to vial 1 in Revelation 16 where a "noisome and grievous sore" falls upon those who have the mark of the beast. That means that vial 1 must be literal as well.

Here's yet another description that shows the plagues are literal:

"4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them." Rev. 9:4-6

The description that men shall "seek death" and "not find it" shows that these plagues are actually literal - something very, very painful is happening to the human race right here. In addition, this affects virtually all of the human race except those that are sealed (which we know = 144,000).

Yet more evidence:

"15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:" Rev. 9:15-20

Obviously, if the fire and smoke and brimstone is "symbolic", we have to wonder how something symbolic could kill 1/3 of men. Therefore, it is obvious from just the very description given, that this plague must be literal - literal fire, smoke, and brimstone goes from their mouths. John must here be describing modern weaponry, and it is my belief that his description of "horses" (which you ride into battle) fits the description of tanks, airplanes, and helicopters.

Some have suggested that the sixth seal is symbolic, and not actually literal at all. This interpretation will be shown to be false:

"12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Rev. 6:12-14

Christ's words show that it is literal:

"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Mt. 24:29

"24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." Mk. 13:24-25

Isaiah's words prove that it is literal:

"10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isa. 13:10

We can see, then, that the sixth seal is actually literal, and that the descriptions given in it are literal. The sun will appear black, the moon blood red (will not give her light) and it will appear as though the stars are falling (probably because something catastrophic happens to the earth's axis).

In conclusion, proof has been given that the plagues in Revelation are indeed literal. When John says the entire ocean turns blood red, he means it (and the angel shows this). This will actually literally happen to the ocean. Anyone who claims that the events in Revelation are symbolic goes against all the Biblical evidence to the contrary.
 

1whirlwind

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All of the above, to me, speaks of spiritual deception.

It is ALL to be seen spiritually. Please select one of your examples...not all at one time....and we can discuss it but, I will warn you...you must put on your spiritual eyes to see what is being taught.

If not, then....you'll be waiting around for big chunks of hail to fall or mountains to be cast into the sea or to go flying off into the atmosphere.


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trialbyfire

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Did the plagues on Egypt actually happen or not?

Why would you assume that Revelation's plagues are not real but symbolic?

Pick the sores on people who took the mark. Pick the darkness. Pick one. Achilles did an excellent job showing the Scriptural evidence that Revelations plagues are real.

Oh, I forgot, Shepherd's Chapel-type folk don't believe in an actual mark of the beast, so actual sores would be an actual problem for you, therefore you have to make everything symbolic, even against God's Word and common sense, and attempt to neutralize those who disagree with "you just don't have the 'spritual eyes' to see it.
 
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1whirlwind

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Did the plagues on Egypt actually happen or not?

Why would you assume that Revelation's plagues are not real but symbolic?


Yes, I believe the plagues literally happened (I could be wrong but presently believe they were literal).

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Pick the sores on people who took the mark. Pick the darkness. Pick one. Achilles did an excellent job showing the Scriptural evidence that Revelations plagues are real.


Okay...sores on people. Notice that it doesn't touch God's children but is only on those that fall into apostasy and...take the mark, (believe his deception):

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Is it literal? An actual ulcer such as we see with HIV? Could be. What is being said?


Noisome means an "evil, wicked, bad thing," while "grievous" is very similar...."full of labours, annoyances, hardships, perils, bad nature, in a physical sense or in an ethical sese...evil, wicked, bad."

So the sore is an evil and wicked thing. What is said about sores?

11 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Isaiah 1:4-6 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Are the sores Satan's nasty troops? Those that feast with us (pretending to be so holy), those that are "twice dead," - already condemned to eternal death...fallen angels.

Are they the sores He pours on the deceived?



Achilles did an excellent job showing the Scriptural evidence that Revelations plagues are real.


No, Achilles did an excellent job of quoting Scripture, the letter of the Word but he did not see the spirit of the Word.

11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Oh, I forgot, Shepherd's Chapel-type folk don't believe in an actual mark of the beast, so actual sores would be an actual problem for you, therefore you have to make everything symbolic, even against God's Word and common sense, and attempt to neutralize those who disagree with "you just don't have the 'spritual eyes' to see it.



I can't speak for others. There is no literal mark. It is to believe his deception. It is in one's forehead...not tatooed to it. ;)


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NightHawkeye

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Okay...sores on people. Notice that it doesn't touch God's children but is only on those that fall into apostasy and...take the mark, (believe his deception):
Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Is it literal? An actual ulcer such as we see with HIV? Could be. What is being said?

...

I can't speak for others. There is no literal mark. It is to believe his deception. It is in one's forehead...not tatooed to it. ;)

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Interesting you bring that up, Whirlwind.

I received an e-mail a few years ago which showed pictures of real physical sores on the foreheads of members of a certain religious group who kneel and bring their foreheads to the ground when praying daily. I thought it interesting at the time and only later learned that there was a virus going around which caused that grievous inflammation. Normally, the bump to the forehead would have been no concern, but that repeated bumping multiple times a day was all the virus needed to spring into action.

So, yeah, such a mark can affect a certain religious group, in a very "literal" sense.

Was it the "mark of the beast"? I don't know with certainty, so I refuse to speculate. Just saying that such "literal" phenomena have occurred ...
 
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trialbyfire

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How do you debate someone who continually pulls up scripture that has nothing to do with the topic but insists that it does, coming to errant conclusions and then telling people they are blind if they can't see it?

No, the sores on those who take the actual mark of the beast are actual sores, not "satan's troops".


Rev 16:10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

These people are not gnawing on "satans troops" or "fallen angels" as you suggest. These are actual sores, causing actual pain on the people who have taken the mark of the beast on their body.
 
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1whirlwind

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How do you debate someone who continually pulls up scripture that has nothing to do with the topic but insists that it does, coming to errant conclusions and then telling people they are blind if they can't see it?

No, the sores on those who take the actual mark of the beast are actual sores, not "satan's troops".


Rev 16:10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

These people are not gnawing on "satans troops" or "fallen angels" as you suggest. These are actual sores, causing actual pain on the people who have taken the mark of the beast on their body.


No, that isn't what I'm suggesting. ^_^ These people are gnawing on their tongues BECAUSE of the pains and sores...their tongues aren't the pains and sores.


It's odd but I just looked for the description of tongues. The Blue Letter Lexicon describes tongue as a "member of the body, a poetical and rhetorical usage, a Hebraism for a member of the body engaged in an act."

I have no clue if that relates to anything...just thought it odd.


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1whirlwind

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Interesting you bring that up, Whirlwind.

I received an e-mail a few years ago which showed pictures of real physical sores on the foreheads of members of a certain religious group who kneel and bring their foreheads to the ground when praying daily. I thought it interesting at the time and only later learned that there was a virus going around which caused that grievous inflammation. Normally, the bump to the forehead would have been no concern, but that repeated bumping multiple times a day was all the virus needed to spring into action.

So, yeah, such a mark can affect a certain religious group, in a very "literal" sense.

Was it the "mark of the beast"? I don't know with certainty, so I refuse to speculate. Just saying that such "literal" phenomena have occurred ...


That could well be types and shadows, the natural for the spiritual. I put HIV illness into that group as an example for us. Certainly literal pains and sores. The black plague, small pox...all literal but they fell indiscriminately on everyone. The pains and sores of Revelation only hurt those that take the mark. Of course, we have the three Hebrew children standing in the middle of the fire as our example of not being harmed so literal sores could fall on the world, such as the plague, and we wouldn't be harmed.


I think one must take into account the descriptions of the words used in the verses about the sores....

Noisome means an "evil, wicked, bad thing," while "grievous" is very similar...."full of labours, annoyances, hardships, perils, bad nature, in a physical sense or in an ethical sese...evil, wicked, bad."

Those seem very odd adjectives for sores, if they are literal.


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1whirlwind

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One of the ten plagues on Egypt was festering sores, as well as darkness, waters to blood, ...

They are a type/shadow of what is coming on the kingdom of the beast.


Yes, I think they were a type of what is coming. The question is, is it a literal event as was the first?



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trialbyfire

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Yes, I think they were a type of what is coming. The question is, is it a literal event as was the first?



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Of course it is.

Everything in Revelation has an Old Testament counterpart that further describes it, even defines it.

I don't discount the fact that actual things have symbolic meanings. I believe that they do. It is not all or nothing one way or the other.

The mark of the beast, for example. God sealed those who were His in Ezekiel before sending in the destroyers. It was a spiritual mark. But the devil can't put a spiritual mark on people. He can't cause people to receive a spiritual mark so that they can't buy or sell without it. He can force people to accept a physical mark so that they can't buy or sell without it.


Revelation 13:16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In order to buy and sell, others who are also buying and selling have to see that mark to know who it's ok to buy from or sell to.
 
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1whirlwind

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Of course it is.

Everything in Revelation has an Old Testament counterpart that further describes it, even defines it.

I don't discount the fact that actual things have symbolic meanings. I believe that they do. It is not all or nothing one way or the other.

The mark of the beast, for example. God sealed those who were His in Ezekiel before sending in the destroyers. It was a spiritual mark. But the devil can't put a spiritual mark on people. He can't cause people to receive a spiritual mark so that they can't buy or sell without it. He can force people to accept a physical mark so that they can't buy or sell without it.


His weapon is deception. He deceives people and that is the mark IN their foreheads, in their minds...their thoughts.

The buying and selling is also spiritual in nature.


Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
No one can literally buy a soul. It is spiritual.




Revelation 13:16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In order to buy and sell, others who are also buying and selling have to see that mark to know who it's ok to buy from or sell to.



If it was literal buying and selling then the mark would also be literal. Neither are.


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trialbyfire

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His weapon is deception. He deceives people and that is the mark IN their foreheads, in their minds...their thoughts.

The buying and selling is also spiritual in nature.

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
No one can literally buy a soul. It is spiritual.








If it was literal buying and selling then the mark would also be literal. Neither are.


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It IS literal. It is an actual, physical mark. People will have to receive the mark in order to actually buy and sell, just as it says.

It doesn't say anything in Revelation 13 about taking the mark in order for people to buy and sell the souls of other men. It just says that they have to take a mark in order to buy and sell.
 
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1whirlwind

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It IS literal. It is an actual, physical mark. People will have to receive the mark in order to actually buy and sell, just as it says.

It doesn't say anything in Revelation 13 about taking the mark in order for people to buy and sell the souls of other men. It just says that they have to take a mark in order to buy and sell.


Yes and He also tells us what is bought and sold in chapter 18.

Ask yourself...Trial, just how could he force Christians that love the Lord, have heard all their lives about taking the mark...to actually line up and take the mark? He can't. He passes out the mark with deception. They will believe he is Christ...that is the mark.


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trialbyfire

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Yes and He also tells us what is bought and sold in chapter 18.

Ask yourself...Trial, just how could he force Christians that love the Lord, have heard all their lives about taking the mark...to actually line up and take the mark? He can't. He passes out the mark with deception. They will believe he is Christ...that is the mark.


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Uh, whirlwind? He doesn't force Christians to take the mark in worship of the devil - it says people take it or they are killed or imprisoned.


Rev 14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 
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1whirlwind

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Uh, whirlwind? He doesn't force Christians to take the mark in worship of the devil - it says people take it or they are killed or imprisoned.


Rev 14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
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:doh: So you don't consider forcing folks as telling them...take the mark or you're killed? That isn't forcing?

Come on now. It would be forcing and how many Christians would do that knowing it would cause damnation? Not many, so....you must see that the mark is a voluntary thing. It is IN someone's forehead which means IN their minds.

No one can be forced to worship someone, such as the beast. They could make you bow down but not worship. Love and worship is something we feel, not an outward sign.


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trialbyfire

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:doh: So you don't consider forcing folks as telling them...take the mark or you're killed? That isn't forcing?

Come on now. It would be forcing and how many Christians would do that knowing it would cause damnation? Not many, so....you must see that the mark is a voluntary thing. It is IN someone's forehead which means IN their minds.

No one can be forced to worship someone, such as the beast. They could make you bow down but not worship. Love and worship is something we feel, not an outward sign.


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Read Daniel, the act of bowing down is a form of worship.

And you don't have scripture on your side. A person has to accept a mark in their right hand or forehead in order to buy and sell. Those who accept the mark are in pain due to sores during the bowls.

It is a physical mark and is likely the implanted "grain of rice" microchip or something similar. A person can't buy and sell with "their minds", whirlwind.
 
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Achilles6129

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All of the above, to me, speaks of spiritual deception.

Then you are simply denying the words of Jesus Christ in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, and Luke 21. And, just simply denying the plain meaning of the text itself.

It is ALL to be seen spiritually. Please select one of your examples...not all at one time....and we can discuss it but, I will warn you...you must put on your spiritual eyes to see what is being taught.

You are going to have to select one of my examples. I presented a ton of evidence that shows that the plagues must be literal.

If not, then....you'll be waiting around for big chunks of hail to fall or mountains to be cast into the sea or to go flying off into the atmosphere.

100 lb. hail will fall at the very return of Jesus Christ. This is also described in the Old Testament with the destruction of Gog (whom I believe is the antichrist), and elsewhere in the Old Testament. It's all literal. In addition, the mountain burning with fire that's cast into the sea is, in my opinion, an asteroid.

The pains and sores of Revelation only hurt those that take the mark. Of course, we have the three Hebrew children standing in the middle of the fire as our example of not being harmed so literal sores could fall on the world, such as the plague, and we wouldn't be harmed.

Indeed. The plague is literal sores - a disease of some sort. There are several diseases which cause ulcers to appear on the skin.

I think one must take into account the descriptions of the words used in the verses about the sores....
Noisome means an "evil, wicked, bad thing," while "grievous" is very similar...."full of labours, annoyances, hardships, perils, bad nature, in a physical sense or in an ethical sese...evil, wicked, bad."

Those seem very odd adjectives for sores, if they are literal.

No, the very description shows that it is literal. They are gnawing their tongues for pain because of their sores. There is simply no reason to believe in a metaphorical interpretation of these verses, particularly considering Jesus Christ's comments in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, and Luke 21.

His weapon is deception. He deceives people and that is the mark IN their foreheads, in their minds...their thoughts.

While indeed their minds are blinded, there is no question that the mark of the beast must be literal. I'll quote a few verses in a couple of minutes, but the physical symbolizes the spiritual. The fact that they're taking the mark of the beast in their right hand or forehead symbolizes their allegiance to the antichrist.

Why the right hand or forehead? It's to convenience amputees - anyone who has had a hand or arm blown off in battle may take the mark in their forehead.

The buying and selling is also spiritual in nature.

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
No one can literally buy a soul. It is spiritual.

Again, you are cobbling together verses that aren't talking about the same thing. While the verse in Rev. 18:13 is speaking spiritually about the souls of men, this verse has no relation to the mark of the beast, which is fully literal. The verse itself is straightforward proof:

"16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Rev. 13:16-17

How much more literal do you want it to get? You cannot buy or sell without the mark. The mark of the beast is something that's taken voluntarily - and anyone who takes it is lost forever.

If it was literal buying and selling then the mark would also be literal. Neither are.

It is literal.

:doh: So you don't consider forcing folks as telling them...take the mark or you're killed? That isn't forcing?

Firstly, nowhere in Revelation does it say take the mark or you're killed. It simply says that the false prophet causes everyone to take the mark of the beast. Obviously, this must be voluntary because some do not take it. They may be killed or imprisoned because of it (and probably are), but the book of Revelation is silent about that.

Come on now. It would be forcing and how many Christians would do that knowing it would cause damnation? Not many, so....you must see that the mark is a voluntary thing. It is IN someone's forehead which means IN their minds.

You're right, it is a voluntary thing. Voluntary as in "take it or go to jail or be killed." Technically, everything you do is voluntary. You don't have to pay money for your food. You don't have to fill up your car with gas. You don't have to obey the law. But you do, because there are consequences if you don't. The same thing applies to the mark of the beast - no one has to take it, but people will because the penalty for not taking it will probably be harsh. The mark of the beast must be something that is viewed as very beneficial to mankind.

No one can be forced to worship someone, such as the beast. They could make you bow down but not worship. Love and worship is something we feel, not an outward sign.

Well obviously they are forced into an outward adoration towards the image of the beast, which probably also indicates their inward adoration for the image of the beast:

"15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Rev. 13:15

Also, everyone will worship the beast. Jesus Christ plainly says this, and the book of Revelation plainly says it. It's not something they will be forced to do, it's something that natural man will simply want to do:

"8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

"24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Mt. 24:24
 
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