The Lazarus timeline

[Always in His Presence]

The death of Lazarus​

A word study.​

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You will note that there is no individual doctrine expressed here, but a plain line by line study of the Word of God concerning the death of Lazarus.

The first step in interpreting or “rightly dividing” a scripture is to determine which of the three literary styles it is written in. The three literary styles of writing found in both the Old and New Testament are:

[FONT=&quot]□[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]Poetic – The Word of God written in prose. Example would be the Davidic Psalms which were written, but also sung.

[FONT=&quot]□[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]Allegory – A symbolic representation of a truth – Example would be parables.

[FONT=&quot]□[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]Literal/Historic – a literal account of an historical event.

Because the account of the death of Lazarus is about the actual events surrounding a real person, we can see that these verses are literal/historic. As such, they have to be taken and interpreted literally. For the purpose of this study, I will use literal dates to illustrate what is being spoken about.

John 11:1 (NKJV) Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
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Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, got sick.

3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” 4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
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July 1, - The messengers Mary and Martha send to Jesus arrive and tell Him that Lazarus is sick. Jesus’ immediate reply is that the sickness is not unto death, but for the Glory of God and that He might be glorified through it. ( See underlined above)

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. ​

The same day Jesus heard that Lazarus was sick, and then said the sickness was not unto death, Jesus stayed in the same place two more days.

Two more days would be July 2nd and July 3rd

7 Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”
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The disciples were not excited about going back to a place where they tried to stone Jesus, but Jesus corrected them.

11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” 12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
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Jesus knew on July 3 – day three that Lazarus was physically dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there,
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Again Jesus knows before ever leaving that Lazarus died when He was not there.

that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.” 16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
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Now look at the last two verses here:

17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away.
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On day three – July 3 Jesus made the 2 mile trip to raise Lazarus and Lazarus had been in the grave for four days. That means that Lazarus was buried on June 30th – the day BEFORE Jesus was told of his sickness.

Jesus was in no hurry to get back to Lazarus because Lazarus was already dead.






If you have something from scripture that shows this time line is incorrect - please cite chapter and verse.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Hi Balance, you probably remember I got confused about this before. I dropped it then, but since you're obviously happy to discuss it, I would like to understand.



Jesus was not in Jerusalem at the time the messengers came to Him.
In fact the text states He was not even within the land of Judea:

6 Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days.

7 Then he said to his disciples, Let us go back to Judea. 8 But Rabbi, they said, a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?


Looks like Jesus may have been several days' travel away from Jerusalem and Bethany, which are only about a mile and a half (less than an hour's stroll) apart.

So the sisters sent word as soon as Lazarus looked dangerosuly ill, it took several days for the message to arrive "where He was" and Jesus knew Lazarus was already dead or would be dead even if He ran all the way at that stage.


I suggest that Jesus waited because He knew that A/ it was too late for healing - resurrection from the dead would be required now, and B/ having decided that, He now waited to ensure the resurection would take place after the body was in the grave 4 days, because the Jews of the time believed the spirit lingered by the body until that time, and so a resurrection as late as that, when the spirit had most certainly left the body, was going to be extra specially impressive to them.

 

[JimB]

If all this were true (which it isn’t) it would be moot because …

It overlooks one important point. Jesus knew things about the situation that could have only come by special revelation. He knew, for example, the purpose behind the sickness and death of Lazarus …

4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
​

And He knew that Lazarus had already died by the time the message reached Him, something His disciples did not know and something that He could not have known except by revelation.

11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” 12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
​

So, is too much for you to believe that Jesus already knew Lazarus was sick unto death way before first word of his illness ever arrived and that Jesus’ presence to heal Lazarus would be needed and sent to Him? In fact, Jesus knew about the coming request long before the request ever arrived!! Didn’t He say that the Father knows what we have need of even before we ask Him (Matt. 6.8)and that the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does (John 5.20)?

Apparently, Jesus did not have to be in Bethany to be well aware of what was happening in Bethany.

And Jesus did not have to be in Bethany to heal Lazarus. He was quite adept at healing long distance (remember the Centurion’s sservant and the Nobleman’s son?)

Fact: Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.

Fact: Jesus knew all along that Lazarus was sick, that word would be sent to Him requesting His presence to heal his sick friend, that He would refuse to respond by waiting two more days, that Lazarus would succumb and die from the illness and that a great object lesson concerning the resurrection of the body would take place.

Fact: Had Jesus wanted to He would have already been in Bethany the moment Lazarus got sick so the request would not have taken so long to reach Him. He didn’t because He did not intend to answer the prayer for healing. He chose, instead, to allow Lazarus to die of the illness.

That’s just part of the lesson from John 11.

I think I will borrow your tactic and make a separate thread out of this.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

 

[BenAdam]

□Poetic – The Word of God written in prose. Example would be the Davidic Psalms which were written, but also sung.

prose

/proʊz/ noun, adjective, verb, prosed, pros·ing.
–noun 1.the ordinary form of spoken or written language, without metrical structure, as distinguished from poetry or verse. 2.matter-of-fact, commonplace, or dull expression, quality, discourse, etc.

 

[Always in His Presence]

If all this were true (which it isn’t) it would be moot because … Just saying the time line isn't true - does not prove that it isn't true - you have to provide some scripture to show it isn't true - sorry.

It overlooks one important point. Jesus knew things about the situation that could have only come by special revelation. He knew, for example, the purpose behind the sickness and death of Lazarus …

4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
​

And He knew that Lazarus had already died by the time the message reached Him, something His disciples did not know and something that He could not have known except by revelation.

11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” 12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
​

So, is too much for you to believe that Jesus already knew Lazarus was sick unto death way before first word of his illness ever arrived

Yes, because it would be an assumption, not based in the scriptures. I would have to add that assumption to the account. For me to believe something clearly, it would have to be plainly stated in the Word - which your assumption above is not.

and that Jesus’ presence to heal Lazarus would be needed and sent to Him? In fact, Jesus knew about the coming request long before the request ever arrived!! Didn’t He say that the Father knows what we have need of even before we ask Him (Matt. 6.8)and that the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does (John 5.20)?

Apparently, Jesus did not have to be in Bethany to be well aware of what was happening in Bethany.

And Jesus did not have to be in Bethany to heal Lazarus. He was quite adept at healing long distance (remember the Centurion’s sservant and the Nobleman’s son?)

Again - all great sounding assumptions - even have a scripture reference, but it doesn't negate that they are just that - assumptions. Did Jesus heal all from a distant - or just two based off of an individuals statement of faith?

I could agree with your assumptions better if Mary had said similar to the Centurion - but she didn't - did she?

Fact: Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.

Sub Fact 1: that doesn't change the fact that we're still supposed to ask

Sub Fact 2: There is no scripture that shows that God knows specifically when we will die. another assumption.

Fact: Jesus knew all along that Lazarus was sick,

Fact - there is no place in the Word that Jesus knew all along that Lazarus was sick, before the message got to him - if there is - show the chapter and verse. If there is no chapter and verse than you are ASSUMING it.

that word would be sent to Him requesting His presence to heal his sick friend, that He would refuse to respond by waiting two more days, that Lazarus would succumb and die from the illness and that a great object lesson concerning the resurrection of the body would take place.

Fact: That is based off of the above assumption you made. And NOT scripturally accurate, nor supported. You have to add things to the account to make this fit, and that is not good exegesis.

Fact: Had Jesus wanted to He would have already been in Bethany the moment Lazarus got sick so the request would not have taken so long to reach Him.

Fact: - Yet another assumption not substantiated by the Word.

He didn’t because He did not intend to answer the prayer for healing.

Fact: - Yet another assumption not substantiated by the Word.

He chose, instead, to allow Lazarus to die of the illness.

Fact: - Yet another assumption not substantiated by the Word.

That’s just part of the lesson from John 11.

I think I will borrow your tactic and make a separate thread out of this.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

That's the problem - you have to take scripture and make assumptions - to make it fit your doctrine of suffering and sickness -

The Word is clear - and it doesn't support your man made doctrine. And never will, no matter how much you add and how much you assume to know what Jesus was thinking or planning.

 

[Always in His Presence]

prose

/proʊz/ noun, adjective, verb, prosed, pros·ing.
–noun 1.the ordinary form of spoken or written language, without metrical structure, as distinguished from poetry or verse. 2.matter-of-fact, commonplace, or dull expression, quality, discourse, etc.

It's a shame you didn't look at the very next definition of prose:

3.Liturgy. a hymn sung after the gradual,

Have a happy day and get a better dictionary.

But I am glad that one little word is the only thing you could take a jab at.

 

[BenAdam]

It's a shame you didn't look at the very next definition of prose:

3.Liturgy. a hymn sung after the gradual,

Have a happy day and get a better dictionary.

But I am glad that one little word is the only thing you could take a jab at.

I just think Psalms are more in line with poetry not prose, that would be proverbs.

I have no horse in this race. I enjoy the discussion.

 

[JimB]

That's the problem - you have to take scripture and make assumptions - to make it fit your doctrine of suffering and sickness -

The Word is clear - and it doesn't support your man made doctrine. And never will, no matter how much you add and how much you assume to know what Jesus was thinking or planning.

You mean, like your assumed “timeline” and the assumption from you side of these endless debates that the sisters of Lazarus failed to “ask” for healing for their brother when they sent word that he was sick, despite her words to the contrary in vs. 21.

And, I did back it up my “assumptions” with scripture (if that makes any difference in this debate).

And what is clear to a man with cataracts and myopia is not clear to someone with 20/20 vision.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

 

[Always in His Presence]

I just think Psalms are more in line with poetry not prose, that would be proverbs.

I have no horse in this race. I enjoy the discussion.

Uh, I wrote:

[FONT=&quot]□[/FONT]Poetic – The Word of God written in prose. Example would be the Davidic Psalms which were written, but also sung.
Notice - both poetic and prose - and David did write his psalms for the liar and harp - IOW to be sung.

 

[LeadWorship]

Good timeline, Balance. It was quite easy to follow, for me.

 

[Always in His Presence]

You mean, like your assumed “timeline” and the assumption from you side of these endless debates that the sisters of Lazarus failed to “ask” for healing for their brother when they sent word that he was sick, despite her words to the contrary in vs. 21.

And, I did back it up my “assumptions” with scripture (if that makes any difference in this debate).

And what is clear to a man with cataracts and myopia is not clear to someone with 20/20 vision.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

And yet you once again feel the need to make this personal and condencending.


Let's stay to the topic not the person

 

[probinson]

You mean, like your assumed “timeline” and the assumption from you side of these endless debates that the sisters of Lazarus failed to “ask” for healing for their brother when they sent word that he was sick, despite her words to the contrary in vs. 21.

John 11:21 (AMP)
Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
​

I'm curious how that is saying to Jesus that she asked for healing. What it shows, quite clearly, is that Martha believed that IF JESUS WAS THERE, her brother would not have died. Mary apparently believed the exact same thing;

John 11:32 (AMP)
When Mary came to the place where Jesus was and saw Him, she dropped down at His feet, saying to Him, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
​

 

[JimfromOhio]

I truly don't believe that the Lazarus of John 11 is not the same Lazarus of Luke 16, who was a beggar. They just happened to have the same name, which was a very common one.

This is not the story of Lazarus; it is the story of Jesus and His resurrection power. Lazarus just happened to be the person who was raised. So the emphasis in the verse is the sickness of Lazarus and Resurrection by Jesus Christ (different form of healing). Lazarus was dying. The Greek word for "sick" implies that his sickness was very serious. The whole point of Lazarus's sickness is not death, but the glory of God. People view "healing" as if God really wanted to be gracious to us, He wouldn't wait so long. The example of Christ who actually WAITED. The Lord knows what's best and He knows the right time, so don't ever interpret His love by time. Faith is waiting on Him and His will. As a Christian, you don't need to fear death if you realize that God is in control of when you die.

 

[JimfromOhio]

double posted. CF is still messed up

 

[JimB]

John 11:21 (AMP)
Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
​

I'm curious how that is saying to Jesus that she asked for healing. What it shows, quite clearly, is that Martha believed that IF JESUS WAS THERE, her brother would not have died. Mary apparently believed the exact same thing;

John 11:32 (AMP)
When Mary came to the place where Jesus was and saw Him, she dropped down at His feet, saying to Him, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
​

True, but Jesus could have healed Lazarus long distance. He did not have to be there. And He obviously knew, through revelation or whatever, what was happening in Bethany before He ever received word from Martha and Mary (v.4) and before He ever left for Bethany (v.14). Had He wanted to heal Lazarus--had it been in God's will--before he died He would have done it.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

 

[Svt4Him]

Fact: Jesus knows we are going to ask before we ask. He even knows when we are going to be sick before we get sick. He even knows when we are going to die before we die.

Jesus knows this when He was a man? Seems to be making a bit of a jump to give Jesus omniscience as a man, as I never see He had all knowledge, I see Him relying totally on the Father. So while it's a fact Jesus as God knows everything, I don't think it's a fact to say when He became lower than the angels He still knew everything. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it said Jesus grew in wisdom, not had it all.

As for the time line, I'm not sure what's being argued there.

 

[KleinerApfel]

*Ahem!*


I appear to have wandered into a "men only" thread again. Sorry guys, have at it and enjoy your quarrelling, just ignore my input and question, which evidently don't fit the agenda.

 

[JimB]

Jesus knows this when He was a man? Seems to be making a bit of a jump to give Jesus omniscience as a man, as I never see He had all knowledge, I see Him relying totally on the Father. So while it's a fact Jesus as God knows everything, I don't think it's a fact to say when He became lower than the angels He still knew everything. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it said Jesus grew in wisdom, not had it all.

As for the time line, I'm not sure what's being argued there.

Nope. Like the OP, it is largely based on assumption. But it is a valid assumption since the context of John 11 (esp. vs.4 & 14) clearly shows that Jesus was somehow well aware (apparently, by revelation) of what was going on in distant Bethany. He knew (apparently, by revelation) Lazarus was sick and (apparently, by revelation) he would die but (apparently, by revelation) that his sickness and death was for the glorify of God (v. 4) and later He knew (apparently, by revelation) when Lazarus died (v. 14), even though He was miles away and without His cell phone. It is not too much for me to believe that He knew other details about the events in Bethany, enough to have healed Lazarus and spared him and his sisters of the death.

As for the timeline—it doesn’t matter. Jesus did not need to go to Bethany to heal Lazarus.

~Jim

The Bible is so simple you have to have help to misunderstand it.​

 

[probinson]

Jesus did not need to go to Bethany to heal Lazarus.

Mary and Martha didn't seem to believe that.

I mean, you and I may believe that Jesus didn't need to go to Bethany to heal Lazarus, but Mary and Martha both said "...if you had been here..."

 

[dkbwarrior]

Mary and Martha didn't seem to believe that.

I mean, you and I may believe that Jesus didn't need to go to Bethany to heal Lazarus, but Mary and Martha both said "...if you had been here..."

This is a really good point, I noticed it your other thread on this also that I repped you for.

Jesus went to the sick girl to raise her from the dead. Jesus went to Lazarus to raise him from the dead. The only long distance healings I can remember are the ones where those receiving believed He didn't need to be there.

In the story of the centurions servant, Jesus answered him, "I will come and heal him", to which the centurion replied with that great statement of faith, saying that Jesus didn't need to go there to heal the servant, but that His Word would be enough, just like when he spoke to a servant.

It appears that if the ones receiving believed that Jesus had to be there, then Jesus had to be there.

Peace...