The heavenly temple of 2 Thes 2.4

[RandyPNW]

I could easily have posted this in Eschatology--not Theology. But this question is bigger than just Eschatology. It involves the struggle we have against Satanic condemnation. He appears in heaven before God to condemn us. And on that basis Antichrist assumes a posture within God's heavenly domain, or temple, proclaiming his verdict against the Church more powerful than God's.

So I'm posting here a letter I just sent to my brother. He was questioning whether the temple in 2 Thes 2.4, where Antichrist will sit, will be an actual literal, physical temple or a heavenly one? Dispensationalists commonly see this as a rebuilt, Jewish Temple, but I see it as an heavenly Temple, and I explain to my brother why I take this position.

My brother, like me, attends a Dispensationalist church, but my brother and I are both independent thinkers, and don't automatically agree with the "group think" in our denomination. However, I wish no offense to Dispensationalists, among whom I name many of my friends and brothers. Here is what I wrote him--try to keep an open mind!....

Dan 7.21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
...26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

Here is the main point. When Paul writes 2 Thessalonians, he is clearly referencing Daniel 7. He doesn't say this, but he has indicated this has been a previous Bible Study, so to speak. I feel it has to be Daniel 7 that he is referencing because...
1) Daniel 7 is the only passage in the Bible that deals in any detail with the Antichrist, or "Man of Sin." Paul is *not* giving a prophecy!
2) All of the elements in Daniel 7 are also referenced in 2 Thessalonians.

I will go a step farther and suggest that all of the NT eschatological references to Christ's Return are based on Daniel 7, as well. And that's because ...
1) Daniel 7 is the predominant passage that provides a framework for the 2nd Coming.
2) Some of the elements in Daniel 7 are at least partly referenced in all of these NT passages.

a. For example, whenever a NT eschatological passage references the Son of Man coming, it is, I believe, a reference to Dan 7, where the Son of Man is viewed as coming.
b. Another example would be a reference to Christ coming from heaven, or with the clouds. That also is a reference to Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven with the clouds.
c. Another example would be a reference to the establishment of Christ's Kingdom. That also is a reference to Dan 7, where God's Kingdom is established at the time the Son of Man descends from heaven.
d. Finally, any NT reference to the Antichrist is also a reference to Dan 7, since that is where the Lawless One, the Little Horn, originates in the Bible.
e. Incidentally. we also have peripheral references to being dressed as white as snow, thrones, and fire. These are all derived from Dan 7!

So, when Paul states in 2 Thes 2.4 that the Antichrist assumes a seat in God's Temple, we would naturally look back to Dan 7, to see how this concept originated. There, we see that God assumes a seat in heaven, where the Son of Man appears before Him, while the Lawless One boasts before God, appearing to usurp God's place on his throne. He stands in opposition to the Son of Man, and is thus called the "Antichrist" by the Apostle John.

The main idea here is that God's People want God's Kingdom to be established permanently on earth, since in Israel's history they failed to maintain His Kingdom time after time. And so, the Son of Man appears before the court of heaven on our behalf, while Antichrist boasts of his ability to destroy God's Kingdom on earth repeatedly.

Ultimately, the Son of Man descends from heaven, to deliver God's People from their failures, and to establish God's Kingdom permanently among them. And in the process, the Man of Sin is defeated.

The point is, the Antichrist is attempting to usurp God's seat in a *heavenly temple* before the Son of Man descends from heaven. This is a heavenly temple, and not an earthly one, and forms the core of Paul's teaching about this. Paul's idea is entirely derived from the passage in Dan 7 concerning God's throne in heaven before which the Son of Man appears, followed by the boasting of the Antichrist.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

15 “I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.

“So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. 18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’

So, if we're going to find a basis for Paul's claim that the Man of Sin will sit in God's temple, proclaiming himself God, it is here, in Dan 7. The "temple," we might assume, is this court in heaven where the Son of Man appears and where God's judgment and ruling against the Man of Sin takes place.

And it is Antichrist who boasts in this place that God's People have been disqualified from God's eternal Kingdom. He is thus "taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself God." He is ruling in place of God's judgment.

Job 1.6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

In conclusion, I don't believe Paul infers a literal, physical temple will exist that the Antichrist will take a seat in in order to declare himself God. He is posturing himself as God, judging men and declaring them ineligible for God's Kingdom, just as he is ineligible for God's Kingdom. The Antichrist, in a sense, appears before God's heavenly throne to plead disqualification for the Church. He is *posturing* as if he is in God's heavenly temple, in my opinion, based on Dan 7.

Since Paul is referring to Dan 7, he is identifying the "temple" with the place in heaven where the Son of Man appears before descending from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on earth. This is therefore God's heavenly temple, and not a temple on earth, in my opinion.

This is how the heavenly court, which I see as God's heavenly temple, relates to the temple Antichrist will take his seat in. And I think this heavenly court in Dan 7 also relates to the book of Revelation, which contains the exact same framework, the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven, his appearance on our behalf before the throne of God in heaven, the defeat of Antichrist, and the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. There are other shared images, such as God's clothing appearing white as snow, and the fires of judgment.

I hope this clarifies my position, or is it still vague. My communication skills are lacking!

These things aren't expressly stated as such in Dan 7, that Daniel's heavenly throne room is God's heavenly Temple. But the relationship between them seems strong to me. What say you?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I could easily have posted this in Eschatology--not Theology. But this question is bigger than just Eschatology. It involves the struggle we have against Satanic condemnation. He appears in heaven before God to condemn us. And on that basis Antichrist assumes a posture within God's heavenly domain, or temple, proclaiming his verdict against the Church more powerful than God's.

So I'm posting here a letter I just sent to my brother. He was questioning whether the temple in 2 Thes 2.4, where Antichrist will sit, will be an actual literal, physical temple or a heavenly one? Dispensationalists commonly see this as a rebuilt, Jewish Temple, but I see it as an heavenly Temple, and I explain to my brother why I take this position.

My brother, like me, attends a Dispensationalist church, but my brother and I are both independent thinkers, and don't automatically agree with the "group think" in our denomination. However, I wish no offense to Dispensationalists, among whom I name many of my friends and brothers. Here is what I wrote him--try to keep an open mind!....

Dan 7.21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
...26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

Here is the main point. When Paul writes 2 Thessalonians, he is clearly referencing Daniel 7. He doesn't say this, but he has indicated this has been a previous Bible Study, so to speak. I feel it has to be Daniel 7 that he is referencing because...
1) Daniel 7 is the only passage in the Bible that deals in any detail with the Antichrist, or "Man of Sin." Paul is *not* giving a prophecy!
2) All of the elements in Daniel 7 are also referenced in 2 Thessalonians.

I will go a step farther and suggest that all of the NT eschatological references to Christ's Return are based on Daniel 7, as well. And that's because ...
1) Daniel 7 is the predominant passage that provides a framework for the 2nd Coming.
2) Some of the elements in Daniel 7 are at least partly referenced in all of these NT passages.

a. For example, whenever a NT eschatological passage references the Son of Man coming, it is, I believe, a reference to Dan 7, where the Son of Man is viewed as coming.
b. Another example would be a reference to Christ coming from heaven, or with the clouds. That also is a reference to Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven with the clouds.

I appreciate that you at least recognize that the temple of God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not referring to a physical temple on earth, but I disagree that the verse has any direct relationship to Daniel 7. You said here that there is "a reference to Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven with the clouds.". There is no such reference in Daniel 7. Please read the following passage very carefully.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This is not describing Jesus descending from heaven. It has Him coming not from heaven, but rather to heaven. Where else would "the Ancient of days", which represents God the Father, be than in heaven? This is referring to Jesus's ascension to heaven after His resurrection and not His second coming. Notice the similarities between Daniel 7:13-14 and the following passage that speaks about His resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

After His resurrection and ascension, Jesus had been placed at the right hand of the Father and had been given authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with God the Father putting "all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church". That lines up with what is described in Daniel 7:13-14. Christ was given a kingdom long ago and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords who has authority over all. His kingdom did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36). He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-24).

So, I believe 2 Thess 2:4 is referring to the church when it refers to the temple of God just as Paul referred to the church as the temple of God in other verses like 2 Corinthians 6:16 and Ephesians 2:21. Paul indicated that a mass falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin had to occur first before Jesus comes and we're gathered to Him. I think the falling away and the man of sin being revealed go hand in hand. Many in the church fall away from the faith and start thinking they don't need God anymore and that results in them being their own God. That's what I think Paul is alluding to in a figurative way in 2 Thessalonians 2 and I don't think he's referring to a literal temple at all, whether on earth or in heaven.

 

[RandyPNW]

I appreciate that you at least recognize that the temple of God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not referring to a physical temple on earth, but I disagree that the verse has any direct relationship to Daniel 7. You said here that there is "a reference to Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven with the clouds.". There is no such reference in Daniel 7. Please read the following passage very carefully.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This is not describing Jesus descending from heaven. It has Him coming not from heaven, but rather to heaven. Where else would "the Ancient of days", which represents God the Father, be than in heaven? This is referring to Jesus's ascension to heaven after His resurrection and not His second coming. Notice the similarities between Daniel 7:13-14 and the following passage that speaks about His resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

After His resurrection and ascension, Jesus had been placed at the right hand of the Father and had been given authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with God the Father putting "all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church". That lines up with what is described in Daniel 7:13-14. Christ was given a kingdom long ago and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords who has authority over all. His kingdom did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36). He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-24).

So, I believe 2 Thess 2:4 is referring to the church when it refers to the temple of God just as Paul referred to the church as the temple of God in other verses like 2 Corinthians 6:16 and Ephesians 2:21. Paul indicated that a mass falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin had to occur first before Jesus comes and we're gathered to Him. I think the falling away and the man of sin being revealed go hand in hand. Many in the church fall away from the faith and start thinking they don't need God anymore and that results in them being their own God. That's what I think Paul is alluding to in a figurative way in 2 Thessalonians 2 and I don't think he's referring to a literal temple at all, whether on earth or in heaven.

Well, at least we agree that the Temple Antichrist will sit in is not a literal, physical building. In reality, I can't say that it isn't--it's just that as I interpret things, this is not being alluded to.

Rather, what is alluded to is the court room with God on His throne in Dan 7. You see that as the Ascension, and I'm aware of that position. You're certainly welcome to your own opinion.

But thanks for respectfully reading my post because it is a bit cumbersome. I go to great lengths to show the relationship of Daniel 7 to NT Eschatology--not just to 2 Thessalonians 2.

From my perspective, Christ, before he comes, meets with his Father in heaven, where the court rules in favor of his Kingdom, as opposed to the Antichristian Kingdom. Christ's Coming is mentioned 1st, and the reference to the Meeting in Heaven is inserted, parenthetically, as an explantion for his Coming. Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Christ is not not yet ruling on earth. And so, I don't see the Meeting in Heaven as Christ's Ascension.

Christ's Coming, preceded by his Meeting in Heaven, will take place at the end of this age, when his Kingdom will be established on earth. That reality does not exist yet, even though Christ already rules in Heaven at the right hand of his Father.

Obviously, if the Meeting in Heaven precedes the Coming of the Son of Man, then it could be the Ascension. I just don't feel that it fits the meaning of the passage. God bless...

Let me add this... It is possible that the appearance of Christ before the throne does reflect upon the Ascension. It is just placed in the context of the time directly before the 2nd Coming, when Antichrist will boast before God. Still, Antichrist will be trying to sit in God's place (in heaven), maintaining his Kingdom on earth through his Antichristian rule.

Antichrist does not actually have to be in heaven to pretend to be in God's seat in heaven. He simply has to boast before God that he can act freely without God's interference. That is how the Antichrist will operate, as if he has heavenly authority, or is God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, at least we agree that the Temple Antichrist will sit in is not a literal, physical building. In reality, I can't say that it isn't--it's just that as I interpret things, this is not being alluded to.

I don't believe in an individual Antichrist. John made it clear that there are many antichrists, not just one.

Rather, what is alluded to is the court room with God on His throne in Dan 7. You see that as the Ascension, and I'm aware of that position. You're certainly welcome to your own opinion.

But thanks for respectfully reading my post because it is a bit cumbersome. I go to great lengths to show the relationship of Daniel 7 to NT Eschatology--not just to 2 Thessalonians 2.

From my perspective, Christ, before he comes, meets with his Father in heaven, where the court rules in favor of his Kingdom, as opposed to the Antichristian Kingdom. Christ's Coming is mentioned 1st, and the reference to the Meeting in Heaven is inserted, parenthetically, as an explantion for his Coming. Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Honestly, I think that's a huge stretch to see it that way, but I'll just leave it at that. The similarities between Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-23, are very obvious, in my opinion. And Ephesians 1:19-23 clearly refers to His resurrection and acension.

Christ is not not yet ruling on earth. And so, I don't see the Meeting in Heaven as Christ's Ascension.

Of course, you know I, as an amil, disagree with the idea of Him ruling on earth since His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

Let me add this... It is possible that the appearance of Christ before the throne does reflect upon the Ascension. It is just placed in the context of the time directly before the 2nd Coming, when Antichrist will boast before God. Still, Antichrist will be trying to sit in God's place (in heaven), maintaining his Kingdom on earth through his Antichristian rule.

I don't see that in the context of Daniel 7:13-14 at all.

 

[RandyPNW]

I don't believe in an individual Antichrist. John made it clear that there are many antichrists, not just one.


Honestly, I think that's a huge stretch to see it that way, but I'll just leave it at that. The similarities between Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-23, are very obvious, in my opinion. And Ephesians 1:19-23 clearly refers to His resurrection and acension.


Of course, you know I, as an amil, disagree with the idea of Him ruling on earth since His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).


I don't see that in the context of Daniel 7:13-14 at all.

Yes, we have some major differences in our eschatology. Thanks anyway...

 

[Diamond72]

He appears in heaven before God to condemn us.

Job 1:6 is not that clear that Satan is actually IN Heaven. We are told. In Rev 12:4 4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. I always thought that Satan was thrown out of Heaven even if he is still accusing the people of God. As he did with Job.

Hebrews 4:16 says: "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace,". In the Bible, the "prayers of the saints" are symbolized as incense in Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3–4. We do not actually go to Heaven. It sounds like the angels take our prayers and communicate what God wants to tell us.

 

[RandyPNW]

Job 1:6 is not that clear that Satan is actually IN Heaven. We are told. In Rev 12:4 4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. I always thought that Satan was thrown out of Heaven even if he is still accusing the people of God. As he did with Job.

Hebrews 4:16 says: "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace,". In the Bible, the "prayers of the saints" are symbolized as incense in Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3–4. We do not actually go to Heaven. It sounds like the angels take our prayers and communicate what God wants to tell us.

We are told that even today Satan is the prince of the power of the air. That is "heaven." He may have been removed from his heavenly position before God, but he still exists in the atmosphere, along with millions of demon angels. He impacts our world with his deceptions and evil motivations.

I think that Satan appearing before God is a good case for him appearing "in heaven" before God. You disagree, and that's okay.

The Bible seems to use stars as symbols of angels in heaven and even as religious rulers on earth. The idea is that though they operate in the sphere of man, they are sitll acting before God in heaven, with the sanction of heaven.

So when Israel offered incense to God via the priesthood, they were actually worshipping God *in heaven.* The same goes with our prayers today. In the Lord's Prayer we address "our Father who art in heaven." Though we are still on the earth, we can approach God in a sense "in heaven"

Sure, I know we don't actually visit the sky. But I think this is one way of looking at it. The book of Revelation seems to place events in heaven alongside events on the earth, showing how God is orchestrating events on earth in accordance with His overall plan.

I think Jacob's Ladder shows this, as well. It is not so much reflecting on space travel as much as showing the connection between God in heaven and events on the earth. If we are to serve God we must conform to His word in heaven.

I think the real Temple of God is in heaven, and the Tabernacle of the Law was only patterned after it.

Heb 8.1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”