The Disciples on Thrones in Heaven; Doing What?

[AnticipateHisComing]

Jesus said his disciples will sit on thrones and judge Israel.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

Such a strange text; so I have some questions.

1) When will they be sitting on thrones?
2) Who are the 12 tribes of Israel?
3) What does this judging entail?

1) I think I found the answer for the first question in Revelation. In three places it mentions 24 elders who sit on thrones surrounding God. If the disciples were given special positions in heaven for serving God on earth, this same reward could also apply to additional great prophets. In Revelation John has a glimpse into heaven and sees the elders on thrones around God. The image is repeated throughout the book of Revelation as the description of the unraveling of God's wrath on the world and the time of tribulation for the church is told. I believe the disciples were placed on thrones as soon as they died and went to heaven.

2) I have to go with a symbolic reading of Israel, the elect/saved. This taken from the ALL ISRAEL in Rom 11 to be the full church of all saints. Also, in the description of heaven in Revelation, I see no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

3) I think this the hardest question. First I think one most distinguish between two types of judgments. There is judgment day, the last day. The other judgments happen continuously as God directs the world according to his plan. Scripture speaks of God and Jesus as the final judge on judgment day.

Romans 2:16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
​

The other type of judging happens continuously since creation as God rules the world. Psalm 2 speaks of the Son of God ruling this world. This means punishing the wicked and disciplining the elect. It also includes nurturing and protecting the church as Jesus is the head of it.

Psalm 2:12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.

1 Corinthians 11:32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
​

While we only see the things in this world, we should be aware that there is a battle raging in a spiritual domain.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
​

While Satan works against us, we have Jesus leading the angels to our help. I believe that the disciples also continue to aid the church directing the angels to fight Satan in the heavenly realms. The Book of Revelation shows that saints in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth. The disciples are currently sitting on thrones in heaven. Since the saints in heaven no longer sin, I believe they do not need continuous ruling and judging. That leaves only the saints on earth that could possibly be ruled by the disciples sitting on thrones in heaven.


There is an old tradition in the burial of pastors and saints that hints to the continued leadership of pastors after this life. Saints are buried feet to the east to greet the Son of God at his second coming with the rising sun. Pastors have been buried with their feet to the west, implying that when they rise they are facing the saints and will continue preaching in heaven.

I believe this tradition to have some merit based on the Mat 19 text, but I think it not automatic that one called to lead the church in this age will continue after death. I also think that in the next age all will be perfect and not in need of pastors, so if there was a place for a great prophet in this age to continue serving the church it would be in heaven, helping the elect on earth.

 

[Rhamiel]

interesting views

thank you for sharing

 

[Bible2]

AnticipateHisComing said in post 1:

The Disciples on Thrones in Heaven; Doing What?

Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 refer to the future, physical aspect of the kingdom of Jesus on the earth with the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). During the millennium, the 12 apostles will "judge" the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

Also, Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 aren't contradicting (as is sometimes claimed) that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

AnticipateHisComing said in post 1:

In three places it mentions 24 elders who sit on thrones surrounding God.

The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 refer to the future, physical aspect of the kingdom of Jesus on the earth with the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). During the millennium, the 12 apostles will "judge" the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

I am not a millennialist so I won't try and fit Mat 19 into that concept. I look to the context of the Mat 19 text to learn an answer. The disciples oft pondered their position. In Mat 18 the disciples asked who is the greatest not here on earth but in heaven. Jesus answers with a contrast be lowly on earth to be great in heaven.

Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
​

Moving on the Mat 19. A rich man ask about eternal life. Jesus says it is hard for the rich to enter heaven after telling him to sell all. The disciples proclaim having given up everything in this world while following Jesus. They then ask what reward awaits them [in heaven]. It is with this context of suffering on earth to earn a greater reward in heaven that Jesus promises them that they will sit on thrones. Again the answer Jesus gives relates to a reward in heaven, not ruling for some future time on earth.

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

Further Jesus says the disciples will sit on thrones whilst he does. So I ask does not scripture say Jesus ascended to heaven and sits on a throne ruling the world today?

1 Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he[Christ] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he[Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’

Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
​

The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

It would deceptive for the Bible to use the word elder to refer to angels. God does not deceive. In the nearly 200 times elder is used in scripture, I know of none that says an elder is an angel. Learn that society uses elders for governance and is a name for those in authority over others. Scripture has a name for angels of high rank. That would be cherubim and archangel.

Mark 15:1 Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, made their plans. So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.
​

I see no support for your statement that the 24 elders could be angels. I see much more support for the 24 elders on thrones to include the disciples that Jesus mentioned would sit on thrones.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

The answer to the first question can be found in Matthew 25 where it says that when the Son of Man comes in His glory, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. This connects perfectly with Matthew 19 which places that event at the time of Christ coming again.

Luke 22 affirms the same thing and tells us that He shall not again eat of the fruit of the vine until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

IMO these are basic connections in scripture.

 

[Bible2]

AnticipateHisComing said in post 4:

Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

The "kingdom of heaven" (e.g. Matthew 3:2) is the same as the "kingdom of God" (e.g. Mark 1:15). Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

AnticipateHisComing said in post 4:

1 Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he[Christ] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he[Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

AnticipateHisComing said in post 4:

In the nearly 200 times elder is used in scripture, I know of none that says an elder is an angel.

Revelation can be the only book that refers to the 24 elders, which can be a special group of elder angels.

Your argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

 

[Bible2]

ThatTrueLight said in post 5:

The answer to the first question can be found in Matthew 25 where it says that when the Son of Man comes in His glory, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.

Good point.

Also, Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

 

[Souldier]

Jesus said his disciples will sit on thrones and judge Israel.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

Just a couple thoughts of mine, im not sure they answer all questions but perhaps its will be helpful.



2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.


Ephesians 5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



The 12 tribes of israel:

Revelation 14 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.[e]


John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.






Romans 8: 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.


1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The answer to the first question can be found in Matthew 25 where it says that when the Son of Man comes in His glory, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. This connects perfectly with Matthew 19 which places that event at the time of Christ coming again.

That is a possible conclusion, but it does not answer all my questions. Your reading implies that the disciples will judge with Jesus at the resurrection. There is a problem with that interpretation. The judging by the disciples will be of the "12 tribes", but on the last day all people will be judged.

Also take note that one scripture that says Jesus will sit on a throne on the last day and judge everyone does not negate the scripture that says Jesus also rules and judges now. As my OP stated there are two kinds of judging.

Luke 22 affirms the same thing and tells us that He shall not again eat of the fruit of the vine until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Actually Luke 22:29 is the imparting of authority over the church to the disciples during their time on earth. Jesus ponders his coming death and leaving earth. He charges his disciples to continue what he started. The meaning of Jesus not eating of the fruit again until "the last day" simply means Jesus is leaving the world in his flesh. While he is with the church in spirit, he categorically states he will not return until the last day; which comes on the same day as the last of the elect has come to Christ. Just another scripture that disproves the idea of a millennial earthy reign of Jesus.

Your quoted text in Luke 22:18 does nothing to support your view.

IMO these are basic connections in scripture.

As long as you don't answer 2 of my 3 questions, your basic connections lack an explanation of even one verse of scripture. Who do the disciples judge and what is their judgement?

I welcome other ideas, but I just want a complete answer that is congruent with other scripture. This means acknowledging the two types of judging that Jesus does; that Jesus rules/judges today which is symbolically the same as sitting on a throne. It should also have a connection to the 24 elders in heaven currently sitting on thrones.

 

[BobRyan]

The Disciples on Thrones in Heaven; Doing What? Jesus said his disciples will sit on thrones and judge Israel.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

Such a strange text; so I have some questions.

1) When will they be sitting on thrones?
2) Who are the 12 tribes of Israel?
3) What does this judging entail?

1 Cor 6 the saints judge men and angels - that includes the 12 tribes.

Rev 20:1-4 the saints are sitting with Christ on thrones - judging.

Dan 7 - judgment is given to the saints at the 2nd coming.

During the 1000 years the saints are judging the cases of the wicked and when that is completed - you have the lake of fire event - the 2nd death - the punishment of the wicked. Satan, his angels and all the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ThatTrueLight]

That is a possible conclusion, but it does not answer all my questions. Your reading implies that the disciples will judge with Jesus at the resurrection. There is a problem with that interpretation. The judging by the disciples will be of the "12 tribes", but on the last day all people will be judged.

Also take note that one scripture that says Jesus will sit on a throne on the last day and judge everyone does not negate the scripture that says Jesus also rules and judges now. As my OP stated there are two kinds of judging.

IMO it's silly to pretend that this evil world is the kingdom of God. We're told in Matt 25 that the Lord shall say to those on His right to come and enter into the joy of His Father and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 11 affirms the same, that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ at that time..

So imo, amillennialism is so far off it's just nonsense.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Further Jesus says the disciples will sit on thrones whilst he does. So I ask does not scripture say Jesus ascended to heaven and sits on a throne ruling the world today?

IMO it's silly to pretend that this evil world is the kingdom of God. We're told in Matt 25 that the Lord shall say to those on His right to come and enter into the joy of His Father and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 11 affirms the same, that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ at that time.

So imo, amillennialism is so far off it's just nonsense.

Step one is for you to answer the question asked, Does Jesus sit on a throne today, does he currently judge and rule the world?

About the kingdom of God.
Unlike Bible2, I never said the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven. The different gospels each picked one expression, not to say they are the same but to point out different aspects of God's kingdom. There are saints in heaven and saints on earth. God's kingdom is one of saints. This spiritual aspect of our souls is of greatest importance while we live in this "evil" world.

I have no doubt that in this "evil" world I have been given a most diligent guardian angel to watch over me. I further believe that angels are directed/ruled by some in higher positions. Note that it eventually gets to the Son of God commanding the angels as he declares in Joshua. This all happens such that God is in control where he chooses in this world according to his plan.

Some day death will come to saints and they will continue to live in spirit in a more glorious kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. They will be in the dwelling place of God and angels. How awesome that will be.

On the last day/judgement day the best comes. God and man will dwell together in a perfect earth. Understand that the kingdom of God started on day one, not the last day. Understand that the reign of the Son of God is everlasting as scripture declares.

This doctrine has nothing to do with millennialism; as if your comment proved anything about it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

1 Cor 6 the saints judge men and angels - that includes the 12 tribes.

Look at the text closely. It is a juxtaposition. Verse 1 has the ungodly judging the godly. Verse 2 is the godly judging the world/ungodly. I do not believe that on judgment day all saints will judge other saints.

Your text only emphasizes a difference with the Mat 19 text. The 12 tribes of Israel are not the ungodly or the angels. If Jesus wanted to teach that all would be judged, he would have said all. But Jesus said they judge the 12 tribes, a subset of all.

This text supports the judging that the disciples do is different than the judgement on the last day.

Rev 20:1-4 the saints are sitting with Christ on thrones - judging.

Rev 20 does not say the saints are sitting with Christ on thrones - judging. It specifically mentions a class of some as sitting on thrones. Previously Rev says it is 24 elders sitting on thrones. Rev 20 then mentions another class in heaven of those beheaded in faith. Further it mentions others that reign with Christ. It does not say all saints reign or all saints judge or all saints sit on thrones. I will acknowledge that more than 24 reign with Christ.

Dan 7 - judgment is given to the saints at the 2nd coming.

You can't seriously think that because the Bible mentions a judgement on the last day that this means there are no other judgements elsewhere in time.

What was the flood?

During the 1000 years the saints are judging the cases of the wicked and when that is completed - you have the lake of fire event - the 2nd death - the punishment of the wicked. Satan, his angels and all the lost.

I don't really want to get into the 1000 years and millennialism in this thread, but I don't see where in Rev 20:4-6 actually says the wicked are being judged. It says those sitting on thrones judge and others reign with Christ.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Step one is for you to answer the question asked, Does Jesus sit on a throne today, does he currently judge and rule the world?

Hebrews teaches us;

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

It's right there in plain English.. But NOW we see not yet all things put under him..

About the kingdom of God.
Unlike Bible2, I never said the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven. The different gospels each picked one expression, not to say they are the same but to point out different aspects of God's kingdom. There are saints in heaven and saints on earth. God's kingdom is one of saints. This spiritual aspect of our souls is of greatest importance while we live in this "evil" world.

According to John 3, No man has ascended into heaven but the Son of man who is in heaven. So now, there are no saints in heaven.. once again Hebrews teaches us that there are the spirits of just men made perfect..

I have no doubt that in this "evil" world I have been given a most diligent guardian angel to watch over me. I further believe that angels are directed/ruled by some in higher positions. Note that it eventually gets to the Son of God commanding the angels as he declares in Joshua. This all happens such that God is in control where he chooses in this world according to his plan.

So is God controlling all the sin and lawlessness going on in the world today? Whenever something bad happens it's just because God is in control, right?

Some day death will come to saints and they will continue to live in spirit in a more glorious kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. They will be in the dwelling place of God and angels. How awesome that will be.

And on the last day they shall be resurrected from the dead as well.. that will certainly be awesome.

On the last day/judgement day the best comes. God and man will dwell together in a perfect earth. Understand that the kingdom of God started on day one, not the last day. Understand that the reign of the Son of God is everlasting as scripture declares.

Right now Satan is the god of this world and we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against spiritual wickedness in high places, and against the rulers of the darkness of this world. These are simple scriptural facts.

This doctrine has nothing to do with millennialism; as if your comment proved anything about it.

If you don't believe in the millennial kingdom of Christ then you're an amillennialist which means just that.. that you don't believe in a literal millennial kingdom here on earth.

 

[Bible2]

AnticipateHisComing said in post 9:

While he is with the church in spirit, he categorically states he will not return until the last day; which comes on the same day as the last of the elect has come to Christ. Just another scripture that disproves the idea of a millennial earthy reign of Jesus.

The "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

--

AnticipateHisComing said in post 12:

I never said the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven. The different gospels each picked one expression, not to say they are the same but to point out different aspects of God's kingdom.

The Gospels use "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" interchangeably to refer to the same aspects of God's kingdom. For just 3 examples, compare Matthew 8:11-12 and Luke 13:28-29. And compare Matthew 13:31-33 and Luke 13:18-21. And compare Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28.

 

[Bible2]

ThatTrueLight said in post 14:

According to John 3, No man has ascended into heaven but the Son of man who is in heaven.

John 3:13 means no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power. For Elijah had ascended into heaven, but by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9). In John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice, which, while it doesn't require the subject ascended by his own power, it can mean that. For example, compare Jesus "rising up" in Luke 22:45.

ThatTrueLight said in post 14:

So now, there are no saints in heaven...

Are you thinking of the idea of "soul sleep"? If so, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

-

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Contrasts between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God

Kingdom of Heaven-------------------------------------------------Kingdom of God
　
1) Messish as King------------------------------------------------God as King
(jn 18:37, rev 20:6)----------------------------------------------(1 cor 15:28)
　
2) From Heaven-----------------------------------------------in Heaven and earth
(jn 18:36, dan 7:13)--------------------------------------------(psa 103:9)
　
3) upon earth only---------------------------------------in heaven-earth
(jn 18:37, rev 5:10)----------------------------------(1 cor 15:28)
　
4) scope limited----------------------------------------------scope unlimited
(zech 14:9)-------------------------------------------------(rev 4:11, 5:11)
　
5) political-------------------------------------------------moral and spiritual
(isa 9:7, dan 7:14)------------------------------------(rom 14:17)
　
6) future----------------------------------------------------past, present and future
(mt 6:10, 2 tim 4:1)--------------------------------(ps 90:2)
　
7) under Christ ---------------------------------------Father over all
(ps 2:6, lk 1:32-33)------------------------------(ps 103: 19)
　
8) given to Christ-----------------------------------not given
(dan 7:13-14, lk 1:32)------------------------(ps 10:16)
　
9) begins at second advent--------------------is now
(zech 14, 2 tim 4:1),--------------------------((ps 90:2)
　
10) under heaven only---------------------------over all
(dan 7:27, rev 11:15)--------------------------((ps 103:19)
　
11)o/c jewish-earthly---------------------angel/living heavenly creatures
(isa 9:7, lk 1:33) ------------------------------(rev 5:11)
　
12) local-planetary--------------------------universal/interplanetary
(rev 11:15)-----------------------------------(rev 5:11)
　
13) earthly capital-------------------------------heavenly capital
(isa 2:3, zech 14)-----------------------------(heb 12:22)
　
14) dispensational in purpose------------------eternal in purpose
(1 cor 15:24-28) -----------------------------------------(eph 3:11)
　
15) has a beginning-------------------------------timeless, endless
(2 tim 4:1, matt 6:10)----------------------------(ps 90:2)
　
16) tares in it now-----------------------------------only born-again ones in it
(matt 13:38-50)--------------------------------------((jn 3:5)
　
17) comes with outward show-------------------------without show
(matt 24:29-31, 25:31-46, -------------------------------(lk 17:20, rom 14:17
2 thes 1:7-10 , jude 14, zech 14:1-5---------------------------1 cor 4:20)
dan 7:13-14, rev 19:11-21)
　
　
18) flesh and blood inherits for it is earthly, natural people-------------------does not, for only glorified resurrected saints inherit all things.
(ps 37:11, mt 5:5, 25:34, dan 7:18, 28, ezek 43:7) ------------------------(rom 8:17, 1 cor 15:50-58, rev 21:7)
　
__________________

 

[BobRyan]

The Disciples on Thrones in Heaven; Doing What?

Jesus said his disciples will sit on thrones and judge Israel.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
​

Such a strange text; so I have some questions.

1) When will they be sitting on thrones?
2) Who are the 12 tribes of Israel?
3) What does this judging entail?

​

1 Cor 6 the saints judge men and angels - that includes the 12 tribes.

Rev 20:1-4 the saints are sitting with Christ on thrones - judging.

Dan 7 - judgment is given to the saints at the 2nd coming.

During the 1000 years the saints are judging the cases of the wicked and when that is completed - you have the lake of fire event - the 2nd death - the punishment of the wicked. Satan, his angels and all the lost.

Look at the text closely. It is a juxtaposition. Verse 1 has the ungodly judging the godly. Verse 2 is the godly judging the world/ungodly. I do not believe that on judgment day all saints will judge other saints.

Saints will not be judging other saints in 1Cor 6 and in Rev 20. Rather they judge the fallen. Lost men, and fallen angels.

Your text only emphasizes a difference with the Mat 19 text. The 12 tribes of Israel are not the ungodly or the angels.

They are if that judgment is in the Rev 20:1-4 period of the 1000 years when the saints are on thrones and sit with Christ.

If Jesus wanted to teach that all would be judged, he would have said all.

All are judged.

"We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5:10

Rom 2:13-16 points to the future day of Judgment that includes the saved being judged.

Dan 7:9-26 points to future judgment where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" - which means they are part of - or the subjects of that judgment.

This happens according to Dan 7 -- before the 2nd coming.

Rev 22 "I come quickly and My reward is with Me".

But there is another judgment - the judgment of the wicked and we see that in 1Cor 6 and in Christ's statement in the Gospels.

But Jesus said they judge the 12 tribes, a subset of all.

That was to emphasize the importance of it - the highest group, authority that they knew on earth was God's people - the 12 tribes.

Rev 20 does not say the saints are sitting with Christ on thrones - judging.

It does say they are ruling with Christ and are on thrones AND are judging during that time AND in 1Cor 6 does say that they judge even Angels - not just the 12 tribes of Israel - not just the lost.

1 Cor 6
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

We "will judge" in the NEXT life - and that includes the 12 tribes (since clearly the saints did not judge the 12 tribes while Christ was on Earth) and it includes Angels.

It specifically mentions a class of some as sitting on thrones. Previously Rev says it is 24 elders sitting on thrones. Rev 20 then mentions another class in heaven of those beheaded in faith. Further it mentions others that reign with Christ. It does not say all saints reign or all saints judge or all saints sit on thrones.

It says there are only two resurrecitons in Rev 20 -- the saved and the lost - all who are saved come up in what Rev 20 calls the FIRST resurrection and they reign with Christ.

For as Paul says "the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4.


Rev 20
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.



5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.



1Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

You can't seriously think that because the Bible mentions a judgement on the last day that this means there are no other judgements elsewhere in time.

There are 3.

1. the Dan 7, Rom 2:13-16, 2Cor 5:10 future judgment that happens before the 2nd coming - where at the end "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" according to Dan 7. Saints of all ages - in all of time - separating the sheep from the goats.

2. The Judgment of Rev 20:1-5 , 1 Cor 6 where the saints judge the wicked of mankind of all ages of time, and of fallen angels.

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.

3. The Rev 20 end of chapter - great white throne judgment - executing the 2nd death "sentence" on all the wicked -- those who lived in every age who are wicked.

What was the flood?

A "particular judgment" of ONE single generation who were alive at one point in time.

in Christ,

Bob