The church of my youth had a split

[looking4joy]

AC church split thread

 

[1watchman]

Maybe you should go back to the church group that preached "grace and truth"????

 

[looking4joy]

Maybe you should go back to the church group that preached "grace and truth"????

I am in that non-denominational church of "grace and truth." I'm just talking about the split that happened with the Apostolic Christian Church, it would be nice to bring the part that didn't split into further legalism in with us. Rather, that God would do that.

 

[Michaelismyname]

He claimed, "There comes a time where you don't sin anymore." I responded, "No, you sin every day." He disagreed with me

is that one person ? "he"

did you consider you may both be right ?

there does come a time of maturity when you do not sin anymore .. but he may have meant you don't willfully sin . ie: when you know something is wrong to do you love God more then that thing ..so you prove it and you don't do that sin -the fruit proves your love .

and we may sin everyday in ways we may not perceive .. but repent of when it is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit .

so the split may have happened ,as most do, from a misunderstanding of one another. after all , the lord Jesus came to set us free from sin and death . hence as we learn obedience and walk in it, we grow increasingly into a place where we no longer willfully disobey and we do so for the joy set before us and for love .
a church of grace and truth has to include a hope of a sinless life - what is the reason for being set free if we are then to return to living in our prison cell? that would not be freedom . if we return to sinning after being set free, we do so by choice and the end of doing so is death. for we have to reject obedience to continue in disobedience . When the lord Jesus set us free ,he did so, that having been freed ,we are able to choose .sin no longer has that power of deception over us.

 

[MiraclesHappen321]

When I saw the title of your thread I had to read it.
I grew up in a non-denominational church and when I was 12 there was a split. Its cause is not that important now but what it did to the community was extremely important. Roughly 2/3rds of the church fell away( of several hundred people ), some lost faith, some joined new churchs, others stayed and new leaders came into the church. At the time of the split our family had been deeply involved, ran a bible study out of our home, and my parents were being groomed to be elders and the split itself showed clearly that the faith we all shared was more in the people and community of the church itself, than in God. If we truly had faith in God at that point I dont believe a church split would cause you to lose faith.
Regardless of this I was young at the time and since my parents no longer attended neither did I. Within three months of leaving the church our family fell apart in many ways and it wasnt till my mid twenties when I turned back to God and rededicated my life to his purpose that things began to work together for good. The twelve years inbetween the split and when I returned were the darkest times of my life and I thank God every day that he blessed me and brought me back.

Praise God


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

 

[ACers]

Hi,
We are AC believers with deep roots in the Hungarian AC church. Our journey and immigration took us out of there into the sister church that has been split off in 1906. From this church we were "tossed out" for speaking up against the leadership and we landed in a Mennonite christian fellowship with a missionary outlook. This church also split on deferring visions. Our time with every faith group was delightful and a great blessing. However it seems that God's people will go through divisions, splits and struggles in our earthly existence in order to passionately search for God. These struggles may show our partial understanding and our ignorance of the fullness of our God and his Kingdom. Could these splits not be used by Christ to prompt us to dig in deep into the Word and examine our prejudices and our blind spots? The boundaries of denominational lines do not serve to unite the redeemed community. The blood of Christ on the other hand will.
Let's include graciously and generously all those who are God's children by adoption.
In Christ love, Cheers!

 

[Inhiskingdom]

I grew up in the Apostolic Christian Church, and at the time I was trying to join the church at 19 years old, and all up thru my youth it was a typical legalistic church. I left the church when I was 35 to join a non-denominational church which preached grace and truth. Recently the Apostolic Christian Church had a split. We live in the hub of the central decision making for that church. 400 out of 700 people split or defected. They claimed they wanted it like the "good old days". There's a verse in Ecclesiastes about that: Ecc 7:10

10 Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
For it is not wise to ask such questions.

The defected group wanted it to be stricter, and I talked to one of the ministers in that group before the church split. He claimed, "There comes a time where you don't sin anymore." I responded, "No, you sin every day." He disagreed with me. So from that point on I asked God to hold that church upside down until the people who are placing unnecessary burdens on people fall out, and the rest of the church stays strong. And it happened. A little weird that it happened so quickly. But it was bound to happen anyway.

May God bless this new combination of people in the church that hasn't defected. My next prayer is that this remaining church can unite someday with some of the non-denominational churches in love, unity, and brotherhood.

Just speaking on sin, I would like to quote a few verses. I hear so many people say and preach that we are all sinners, saved sinners, etc.. I have heard allot of different teachings from different doctrines, but this is not what the Apostles taught. The apostles taught that we are to "Awake to righteousness, and sin not."

John said "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Paul said "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.For he that is dead is freed from sin." For if your are dead to this world then "your life is hid with Christ in God."

Paul taught that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace". Now we know that there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. If we walk in the flesh we will fulfill the lusts of the flesh(sin), and this is not something we should do as Christians, this is something we have been given power over. For we have received an unction from the holy one. We have been given a dwelling place that we should come out from amongst the world and be "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" So therefore we know that we should"..sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." Therefore do not walk in the lusts of the flesh, but live in the Spirit and show yourself approved unto God, and by living in this Spirit you will not sin.

If we are to live in the Spirit, then let us also obey the Law of the Spirit, for ".. .the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW"(Gal. 5:22,23), for these things proceed FROM the heart of man. IN THIS YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE PRINCIPLE OF SIN. Jesus said, "Oh generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For OUT OF the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. A good man, OUT OF the good treasure, of the heart, BRINGETH FORTH good things (fruit of the Spirit): and an evil man, OUT OF the evil treasure, BRINGETH FORTH evil things" (works of the flesh).

 

[ACers]

It is note worthy how easily we overlook that our God is faithful and just.
In 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Likewise 1 John 2 starts:" My dear children (believers) I write this to you that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defence- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."
The remarkable kindness, generosity and readiness of our Lord to restore fellowship with our brothers and with himself comes through. Also the Lord's prayer conveys the same grace offered to me when he says: Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sinned against us.
It would be more fruitful to ponder the degree of grace in the forgiveness he offers to me daily, so that in turn I could also offer the same to others.
Doesn't the above scriptures suggest that forgiveness is offered to believers (after baptism)?
Our AC experience reminds us about the sad facts of discouraging its members to confess their sins. The issue of the believer's sin has been muddled and mishandled. Instead our fathers were very creative in designating new terms and names for "sin". Dancing with words like " mistakes, weaknesses, slips, inability, imperfection etc." did not present a new reality of sinlessness they hoped for. Realizing this they turned to creative methods of serving penalties for the sins, - how about 1 John 2:2 Jesus Christ the righteous one is the atoning sacrifice for our sins?
In conclusion, while God is waiting to forgive, we tend to judge the sins of others. Jesus came not to condemn but to save (John 3:17).

 

[ACers]

By the way, "sin not", "does not sin", "can not sin" "should not sin" are all bearing different meanings & are directives. And to "not sin" meaning "being sinless" is not a reality according to John's letters to believers. Context helps.

 

[Inhiskingdom]

By the way, "sin not", "does not sin", "can not sin" "should not sin" are all bearing different meanings & are directives. And to "not sin" meaning "being sinless" is not a reality according to John's letters to believers. Context helps.

Not sure how it is out of context, but John said that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;..." Which is true. Not saying that you will not sin, but I am saying that if you walk in the flesh, live in the flesh, you will fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you walk in the spirit you will not sin, which is what we should all strive to do. Peter said "That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God", and Paul to the Ephesians "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." And again to the Romans "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

I am not saying that once you are born again you will never sin, for John taught that there is a sin no unto death and a sin unto death, which there is no forgiveness for. I am just saying that if you walk in the flesh, we will fulfill the sins of the flesh, and so we all should always strive to walk in the spirit, and never sin anymore. We all make mistakes while we are yet in the flesh being carnal, lose our tempers, or lash out sometimes, which later we realize was a mistake. We need to strive never to commit these mistakes again, and move on and try to stay in the spirit as much as possible, for in doing so we will not fulfill the sins of the Flesh.

 

[hopeinGod]

How these threads get sidetracked. The topic is the splitting of a church, for whatever reason. There are multitudes of reasons why they split, including personality preferences, the lack of financial accountability, kingdom building, and more.

I think it is a good thing many times to get a fresh start. Over long periods of time, one's vision of God can become limited. New insights are needed to bring out a side of the Lord not considered in the past. So a shaking may very well be in order.

I know of many groups that split over the WOF/prosperity doctrines alone.

 

[ACers]

The solution of "walking in the Spirit" is obvious. My problem is that the condition of man, (yes even saved ones) as long as life lasts, will continue to have its battle against flesh. We put on Christ at conversion so that we have the resurrection power to overcome sin. Not mistakes, weaknesses or whatever you want to call it, but sin (or all unrighteousness). Before & after baptism life we need to be covered by the blood of the Lamb. We are saved by grace alone, not grace + righteous living. Paul says, even when we've done all for God, we are just doing our duty. He also said that all his righteousness are like filthy rags. (Phil 3:4-9)
Walking in the Spirit, putting Christ on and letting him live through us will result in a holy life on the long run. In the details though we all will need to be covered for everything that falls short of the glory of God. Let's not pretend; the self righteous attitude of the pharisees who thought they were better than the tax collectors did not want God's mercy in their blindness. They depended on their ability to keep the whole law. Yet they missed the Christ who came to save them! Ouch!
1 John 1:8 " If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
This letter was addressed to believers! Christ remains our advocate for our entire earthly life, not just at our conversion. Just the fact that we battle temptation on a daily bases should show us that our human (carnal) nature is still well till we die. It is a daily responsibility of every believer to choose Christ's way and be victorious over sin. Is it doable? You be the judge!

 

[ACers]

Just so you know, this particular church split has to do with some serious doctrinal errors, like the issue being discussed about sin after conversion.
Apostolic Christian insiders know their traditional views and seem to adhere to them even when their Biblical interpretation is questionable.
As I indicated in a previous blog, I do agree that the Lord works in spite of his children through splitting congregations in order to shake them out of their comfort zone and search for HIS WILL.

 

[selah09]

I, too, grew up in the AC church and joined when I was 14 yrs old. I talked to my parents (who are still members) tonight and this is the first time I hear about this split. I don't know how to research it because I don't know what name they are using.
I do know this has brought up a lot of emotion for my father as he lived in a family where his mother went to the AC (Apostolic Christian Church) and his father went to the CA (Christian Apostolic Church). His parents never did reconcile their differences. They grew up not talking or sharing their faith with their children or grandchildren. I have a cousin who is going thru this with this split. Another cousin has left with the split which gives my aunt great concern.
As for the "we don't sin anymore" issue...I do believe that we are still human and the human tendency is to sin. Yes, we are covered by grace, not that this give us the right to blindly sin and ask for forgiveness. What I think these people are forgetting is that pride is also listed as a sin. With God, a sin is a sin. We tend to put a degree to our sin but not God. I fear that pride has entered these people hearts and an attitude of being better than others.
Thanks to anyone who reads this as I'm just needing to process these things in my own mind. I was ex-communicated when I was 21 and always felt that I was the "black sheep" of the family. Now, I'm not sure how I feel about this split, but I know that I place my faith in Jesus Christ, NOT in a church or denomination. I too pray that those left in the AC Church will become stronger in faith and be able to share God's message of love. Maybe this was needed as a wake up call to a faith, not a church.

 

[ACers]

Greetings Selah09,
We found this blog by accident too. We had high hopes that open communication can bring
wonderful benefits to all involved. Neither of the two sides are able to claim freedom to exchange ideas and examine issues it seems? We are not surprised by this. The AC church of America (more conservative side) discourages open dialogue and debates - in short, "being contentious".
The real issue seems to be a desire of the two thirds of the members for openness.
Openness to share the gospel to outsiders, examine church doctrine and possible errors, to get involved is social justice and inequity, adoption and fostering outside the current tight boundaries of the denomination, etc. In other words, Rick Warren's ideas became the dividing line.
We hope that neither side will neglect the centrality of Jesus, him crucified and resurrected - in whom Christian unity holds true.
May the Lord work powerfully in all his people to accomplish his purpose.
In christian love and cheers.

 

[AC youhg mom]

I understand and realize that some conservative Apostolics may be legalistic and harsh in their views. But they are not all that way. I personally chose to live a conservative lifestyle, as do many in my churhc, but I don't judge others who don't have the exact same standards as I do. I understand that we all have different perspectives, and we should seek to learn from each other's perspectives.

So when you see me and my conservative lifestyle, please don't judge me based on preconceived opinions. I am in favor of outreach, etc. I also, however, think that by God's grace we can reach out and help others all over the world AND not take on the ways of the world.

A lot of my friends left in this split. I don't support their views, attitudes or actions. It has been hard for me emotionally to see this happen. Let's all let things like this draw us closer to God, and none of us point fingers. No one is all right or all wrong, it seems. Whenever there is conflict, often both sides are at fault. It is sad, but let's love even those who hurt us, treating all people as Christ would.

From: an Apostolic Christian member in IL

 

[Yahu]

I grew up in the Apostolic Christian Church, and at the time I was trying to join the church at 19 years old, and all up thru my youth it was a typical legalistic church.

It is common for a church to be led into error and those that want to overcome that error move on. That is part of our spiritual growth process. That is what happened in the reformation. Many wanted to overcome the error that had rooted in the RCC and rejected their authority just as Yeshua rejected the authority of the Pharisees. We follow scripture not religious establishment and traditions of man.

The church I grew up in as a member for 17 years also split. My own family was heavily involved. The pastor started preaching his own pet doctrines that were directly in opposition to other scripture. When confronted, he claimed he didn't accept those other scriptures as valid. He refused a rebuke from the board of elders and claimed it was his church and he could do as he wanted. About 2/3s of the congregation left. The church has been spiritually dead since. It never recovered. So in my case it was a pastor falling into a spirit of control and falling into rulership verses leadership.

It was my own eldest brother as a deacon that originally confronted him and my father as one of the elders that led the opposition to his position.

 

[Norah63]

It always comes back to the grace-law thing. Most church or fellowship splits are along these lines. Some of the people want a list of things to go by, to keep to the narrow path. Others want a grace message of finished at the cross, no sin issue now.
This division leads to leadership and power struggles. The congregation has to choose where they shall go. Everyone has experienced it if they have been a christian very long. Or from the church they grew up in.
Only in daily revelation from the precious Holy Spirit will you find comfort between the two.

 

[AMarie64]

I just recently joined this forum and read your post with great interest. I totally understand what you are saying. We have also experienced those that have left our Apostolic Christian church, seeking a return to the "old ways," whatever that means.

 

[AMarie64]

I was told that they are going by the name Apostolic Christian Faith Church. What a way to make it even more confusing in my area. We already have the Apostolic Christian Church, Christian Apostolic Church, and now the AC Faith Church. Great.