The Cathedral of St. John the Divine

[Paul Yohannan]

So chaps, in another place I was recently shown photographs of architectural features of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City, and alleged photographs of a Halloween party, that could only be regarded as disturbing.

Now, disturbing incidents of liberal clergy at the cathedral allowing things to occur which in moat denominations might be regarded as desecrations have occurred; there have been instances of non-Christian religious rituals such as Native American animism being allowed to occur, there was the infamous plague mass, there is the ridiculous new altar with iconography which depicts our Lord as being of the female gender, and there have been other things which one might regard as divergent.

But what I just saw literally scared the living daylights out of me, and that's just the stonemasonry. The alleged Halloween party was a million times worse; visually on a par with the eponyomous Temple of Doom from the second Indiana Jones film, which is why I am hoping someone familiar with the subject can disclaim either its authenticity or official sanction.

 

[archer75]

Can you provide a link?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Can you provide a link?

No, because the images are simply too disturbing to link to from CF.com. If I were to link to them, even those purportedly depicting the architecture, I think it would be appropriate for me to be banned.

Rather, my hope is that someone can walk me through the architecture of the cathedral, in particular, the capitals on the carved Gothic/Romanesque columns on the facade, in particular those of more recent construction, and separately that someone might provide information offering an accounting of the use of the cathedral on Halloween for pretty much all recent years.

A Google search of "St. John the Divine stonemasonry" and "St. John the Divine Halloween party" should provide links to relevant materials...there is in fact a YouTube video. It is pretty dark material, so again, sorry @hengesthorsa but I do not believe I can directly link to it without violating the forum rules. So what I am hoping is that someone might be familiar with this material and might be able to disavow its authenticity.

 

[Philip_B]

I have seen, some time back discussions of the building, and it all seemed rather more noble that the You-Tube video I have just watched, which I would take to be simply anti-christian. I don't for one believe that the CIA were responsible for the felling of the twin towers.

In my opinion the Halloween extravaganza may well have been better suited to a theatre rather than a place of Christian Worship. I apologise for any who have been offended, but Anglicans are a divers group of people, and sometimes in our freedom some of us run off the rails.

I, from time to time wish I was Anglidox!

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I don't for one believe that the CIA were responsible for the felling of the twin towers.

Well, indeed, I would prefer no one believed that, but alas some people are blithering idiots.

On the subject of the cathedral, my concern is that if these photos are genuine, and I suspect they are (consider, for purposes of comparison, the National Cathedral has a grotesque in the form of Darth Vader, which is to put it mildly a curious choice of iconography), what this says about the clergy of St. John the Divine in light of the known official liturgical events which have incorporated non-Christian worship, and the altar that rather blasphemously depicted our Lord as having the female gender.

 

[Philip_B]

When I was in Papua New Guinea we worked hard at embracing local culture without becoming a synchronicity diluting the truth of the Gospel. It is hard work, and we do not always get it right, but perhaps St John the Divine have missed the mark on this occasion.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Um, nope. Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope to heck with that nope nope.

That YouTube video was freaking creepy and any depiction of Our Lord must be Him as the sex of a man. I'm not fussy on His overall likeness but any depiction of Him as a female is not acceptable.

I have no clue what the story might be there but it looks pretty bad. And the fact that nobody there seems too creeped out by those things is kind of sad, actually.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

So by the way I am very much hoping some Episcopalian will condescend to engage in a quick Google and then see this material and offer a compelling disavowal of its authenticity.

 

[Paidiske]

I had a bit of a google, but I'm not able to say much about the authenticity of what I found. I've never been to the Cathedral (or indeed to the United States) and what I gleaned from my search results were this:

The stonemasonry you're referring to, I gather, is the apocalyptic scenes of destruction of the city? That gets a shrug from me. It's an unusual choice but there have been apocalyptic scenes of destruction and judgement in church artwork before. I can see how, liturgically, it might function as a reminder that all that is man-made is provisional. Not my taste, maybe, but I'm not horrified.

As to the Halloween party stuff, I'm less happy with that. But I can't find much information about the detail of it. Who organised it, and for whom? (For example, is it done by an outside group who rent the Cathedral, which sometimes happens for concerts and other events? While I still don't like it, that's very different than if it were organised by clergy for the congregation, if you see what I mean). What is the significance of it supposed to be? Was it a one-off or a repeated event, and did it generate any controversy or official comment in the diocese? I haven't found answers.

And given that the information I did find was also paired with ridiculous commentary on other aspects of the Cathedral's life (for example, suggesting that they're offering Pagan worship because they wear albs and some Pagans wear white robes, so clearly they're doing the same thing ), I'm inclined to take what I could find out with a large cellar of salt.

So I'm not in a position to offer compelling comment either way.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I had a bit of a google, but I'm not able to say much about the authenticity of what I found. I've never been to the Cathedral (or indeed to the United States) and what I gleaned from my search results were this:

The stonemasonry you're referring to, I gather, is the apocalyptic scenes of destruction of the city? That gets a shrug from me. It's an unusual choice but there have been apocalyptic scenes of destruction and judgement in church artwork before. I can see how, liturgically, it might function as a reminder that all that is man-made is provisional. Not my taste, maybe, but I'm not horrified.

As to the Halloween party stuff, I'm less happy with that. But I can't find much information about the detail of it. Who organised it, and for whom? (For example, is it done by an outside group who rent the Cathedral, which sometimes happens for concerts and other events? While I still don't like it, that's very different than if it were organised by clergy for the congregation, if you see what I mean). What is the significance of it supposed to be? Was it a one-off or a repeated event, and did it generate any controversy or official comment in the diocese? I haven't found answers.

And given that the information I did find was also paired with ridiculous commentary on other aspects of the Cathedral's life (for example, suggesting that they're offering Pagan worship because they wear albs and some Pagans wear white robes, so clearly they're doing the same thing ), I'm inclined to take what I could find out with a large cellar of salt.

So I'm not in a position to offer compelling comment either way.

Now on this point, there were some actual officially sanctioned events at the cathedral that could I think be regarded as transgressive, for example, the infamous "plague mass".

A lot of these things individually could be written off. I know of a Methodist parish that inadvertantly rented its interior to filmmakers shooting a horror film with a Satanic black mass. So obviously that was a major whoops.

What would establish the halloween party as a whoops, as the sort of mishap that befalls owners of Gothic churches, would be if it were a one-off affair that attracted criticism from the canons of the Cathedral chapter and which was not repeated.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

By the way, to reiterate for the benefit of my Anglican friends, I am not anti-Anglican and the point of this thread is not anti-Anglicanism. Rather the imagery associated with St. John the Divine was disturbing.

I might be, and probably am, angry at the diocese in question for allowing offensive decorations and offensive abuses, both liturgical and extra-liturgical, of a sacred space.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, don't misunderstand, Paul, I get as cranky as anyone about abuse of a sacred space. I'm just not willing to say much that condemns something half a world away, to which I have not been witness and about which I have very little knowledge.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Oh, don't misunderstand, Paul, I get as cranky as anyone about abuse of a sacred space. I'm just not willing to say much that condemns something half a world away, to which I have not been witness and about which I have very little knowledge.

Indeed. Note that my remarks were not addressed to you but were rather intended to pre-empt a disagreeable person from popping in here to engage in a ridiculous anti-Anglican rant.

 

[Philip_B]

Sacred Space

The notion of sacred space is indeed both ancient and contemporary. Regardless of the theology, there is the sense of time and space that attributes to certain spaces. I remember standing in the ruins of Coventry Cathedral and being immensely moved by that which is sacred. On the site of the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania there is a pool, sacred to the memory of that day, and it is more than physicality. There is a sacred space associated with the World Trade Centre. These things are important.

There are spaces we set apart as holy to God. Indeed even Jesus was conscious of the sense of the sacred in the Temple Space, and the Gospel records him driving the money changers from the Temple. There seems to be a fundamental difference between sanctifying the secular and secularising the sacred. Our sacred space is part of our witness, which is why we paint the building, mow the lawn, ... and ring the bell. If we treat that space appallingly and with little respect as if it is a theatre or a community hall, then surely we are telling people how we value the sacred.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Wow, just watched the video! I remember touring the cathedral back in 1990 and thought it was pretty New Agey back than. That Halloween was seriously whacked!

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Wow, just watched the video! I remember touring the cathedral back in 1990 and thought it was pretty New Agey back than. That Halloween was seriously whacked!

Quite. I am still hoping some Episcopal member connected with this cathedral will arrive to assure us this was not sanctioned, etc.

 

[seashale76]

This is an annual event called the Halloween Extravaganza. They show silent horror films, have gothic pipe organ music, and end with the Procession of the Ghouls which is an elaborate costume show/parade. It is not appropriate for any Christian sacred space worth its salt. However, as it is claimed (don't know if it is true) that the Cathedral of St. John the Divine is the largest gothic cathedral in the world, I can see why gothic horror fanatics would want to have events there.

The church advertises this annual event on their website. Apparently, this is the brain child of the cathedral's purported 'Artist-in-Residence' Ralph Lee.

I get the impression that it is a money-making scheme for the parish.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

This is an annual event called the Halloween Extravaganza. They show silent horror films, have gothic pipe organ music, and end with the Procession of the Ghouls which is an elaborate costume show/parade. It is not appropriate for any Christian sacred space worth its salt. However, as it is claimed (don't know if it is true) that the Cathedral of St. John the Divine is the largest gothic cathedral in the world, I can see why gothic horror fanatics would want to have events there.

The church advertises this annual event on their website. Apparently, this is the brain child of the cathedral's purported 'Artist-in-Residence' Ralph Lee.

I get the impression that it is a money-making scheme for the parish.

Can you link us to information on this, for the record? I agree with you that this would be completely inappropriate.

 

[seashale76]

Can you link us to information on this, for the record? I agree with you that this would be completely inappropriate.

Halloween Extravaganza and Procession of the Ghouls at The Cathedral of St. John the Divine - New York Calendar | Guest of a Guest

Calendar - Visit - Halloween Extravaganza
^You will notice that this second link is the parish website. They sell tickets to this event on their website.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Halloween Extravaganza and Procession of the Ghouls at The Cathedral of St. John the Divine - New York Calendar | Guest of a Guest

Calendar - Visit - Halloween Extravaganza
^You will notice that this second link is the parish website. They sell tickets to this event on their website.

And thus our worst fears are realized.