The 3 Prophets of God Who Never Died

[Humble Penny]

In another thread a brother brought up the subject of Enoch and Elijah who had never died but, were taken up to heaven: and because of this these two men are the prime candidates for the two witnesses. While it wasn't directly related to the topic of the actual thread we were in I stopped to think:

Did we assume and read Enoch and Elijah into the text of the two witnesses in Revelation because the apostle said, 'It is appointed for men once to die, and after that the judgment'?

After pondering it for a bit I couldn't help but conclude that the word once wasn't saying that men only die "one time" and then are judged: for if this were the case then what do we make of the young girl whom Jesus raised from the dead in view of only her parents? And what do we make of Lazarus? They lived twice and died twice; this would also be the case when Elijah and Elisha rose people from the dead: these stories easily defeat that doctrine. When looking at the Greek text we read that hapas "once, once for all" and not enas "one" was used by the apostle in his letter to the Hebrews. This then would mean that at the end of all things or "once and for all" men will die and then the Final Judgment awaits us.

What's more I also found that a third person had also never died:

1) Enoch
2) Elijah
3) Ezra

This longer ending from 2 Esdras 14:48 can only be found in the New Revised Standard Version - Catholic Interconfessional (NRSV-CI) among all of the English translations I have read of Scripture which includes the apocryphal books. The sources for this longer ending can be found in the Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic, and the 1 Armenian translations of the aforesaid passage. And the year 5000 AM mentioned by Ezra in this longer ending indicates that Ezra would've been contemporaries with Ezekiel and Daniel; and, what's more this is the same year in which Daniel received the 70 Week Prophecy from the archangel Gabriel in Daniel 9 and, 11:1 is a continuation from the same time period all the way to the close of chapter 12. This is also in the 53rd Year of the Babylonian captivity of the Jews as Cyrus the Great would come into power in the year 5017 AM meaning that Darius the Mede ruled for 17 Years dying at 79 Years old.

 

[Humble Penny]

So do we really know who the two witnesses will be according to Revelation or have we assumed we do based on a false reading of the apostle's words in Hebrews?

 

[Psalm 27]

Dont know
Matt 17:
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Jesus, Elijah and Moses all fasted for 40 days, from food and water??
(The transfiguration)

 

[Semper-Fi]

Paul tells us: Abel, Enoch, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Heb 11:1-12
lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them.

In verse 13 Paul says

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith.

 

[Humble Penny]

Dont know
Matt 17:
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Jesus, Elijah and Moses all fasted for 40 days, from food and water??
(The transfiguration)

Paul tells us: Abel, Enoch, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Heb 11:1-12
lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them.

In verse 13 Paul says

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith.

Don't really know myself guys, but I would like to hear both of your explanation for your views please! Be great to have more discussion and ideas around this.

 

[Humble Penny]

Paul tells us: Abel, Enoch, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Heb 11:1-12
lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them.

In verse 13 Paul says

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith.

Well are you sure Paul was including Enoch among them? Here are his own words:

"By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not experience death; and “he was not found, because God had taken him.” For it was attested before he was taken away that “he had pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5 NRSV-CI

This is why we have to be careful to not read the text too hastily.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven,
which he did—but not to the third heaven.

He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.


Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter
to King Jehoram years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been
miraculously transported to another location on Earth [not heaven].

The first heaven consists of [the Earth’s atmosphere]. John 3:13 reveals
that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.

 

[Semper-Fi]

This is why we have to be careful to not read the text too hastily.

Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man"

Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God
took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he
"was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).

That Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him.
The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated.
Instead it says he was not found. Certainly Enoch was "translated,"

The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi.
According to Arndt-Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,
1969 edition, the primary meaning is to "convey to another place ... transfer"

same Greek word where Jacob died his body was "carried over"
- transported, translated - to Sychem where he was buried!

God took Moses from the people after which he died and was buried
by God. "But no man knoweth his sepulchre unto this day." God
removed Moses - God translated him - and he was not found either.
-

Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath [translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son." Here the Bible
says that Christians are already translated - but Christians still die.

Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life
at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith." But what about Paul's saying that
Enoch "should not see death"? There is more than one death mentioned in the Bible.


There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6).
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot
be humanly evaded. It is inevitable, and that death Enoch died.

But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see"
is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event.

It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death - but that he
"should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being
translated is one that he can escape in the future

In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying,
he shall never see death" - shall never see - that is, suffer - the second death!
And again in John 11:26, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
- or "shall not die forever."

We can read that "all the days of Enoch were
three hundred sixty and five years" (Gen. 5:23).

Enoch was martyred at a young age, and God buried him.
Enoch walked with God. Furthermore, he prophesied of the coming of Christ
to execute judgment and to convict the ungodly (Jude 14-15). He was in effect
a "preacher of righteousness" (compare II Peter 2:5).

The death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will
never touch those who are in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

Lamech, a descendant of Cain , could have killed both Cain
and Enoch (Gen. 4:23-24).

The "man"was Cain, the "young man" was Enoch.

 

[Humble Penny]

Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man"

Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God
took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he
"was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).

That Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him.
The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated.
Instead it says he was not found. Certainly Enoch was "translated,"

The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi.
According to Arndt-Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,
1969 edition, the primary meaning is to "convey to another place ... transfer"

same Greek word where Jacob died his body was "carried over"
- transported, translated - to Sychem where he was buried!

God took Moses from the people after which he died and was buried
by God. "But no man knoweth his sepulchre unto this day." God
removed Moses - God translated him - and he was not found either.
-

Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath [translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son." Here the Bible
says that Christians are already translated - but Christians still die.

Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life
at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)

"These all [including Enoch] died in faith." But what about Paul's saying that
Enoch "should not see death"? There is more than one death mentioned in the Bible.


There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6).
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot
be humanly evaded. It is inevitable, and that death Enoch died.

But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see"
is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event.

It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death - but that he
"should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being
translated is one that he can escape in the future

In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying,
he shall never see death" - shall never see - that is, suffer - the second death!
And again in John 11:26, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
- or "shall not die forever."

We can read that "all the days of Enoch were
three hundred sixty and five years" (Gen. 5:23).
Enoch was martyred at a young age, and God buried him.

The death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will
never touch those who are in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

So how do you explain Paul's words about a man being caught up to the third heaven?

"I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the 3rd heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows."
2 Corinthians 12:2 NRSV-CI

And as for your thoughts on no one ascending to heaven...are you sure you're reading the context properly? Paul also explains the meaning of this:

"Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that “the person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 10:5‭-‬9 NRSV-CI

 

[Semper-Fi]

whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.

Paul could not tell if it was a dream or real.

 

[Humble Penny]

whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.

Paul could not tell if it was a dream or real.

"It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."
2 Corinthians 12:1‭-‬4 NRSV-CI

It's clear the man Paul was referring to was having a vision: he just didn't know whether the man's body or spirit went up to the third heaven.

 

[Humble Penny]

Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven,
which he did—but not to the third heaven.

He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.


Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter
to King Jehoram years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been
miraculously transported to another location on Earth [not heaven].

The first heaven consists of [the Earth’s atmosphere]. John 3:13 reveals
that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.

(emphasis added mine)

whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.

Paul could not tell if it was a dream or real.

I can't tell whether you believe that people ascended to heaven or not anymore with these two conflicting views...

 

[Humble Penny]

Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven,
which he did—but not to the third heaven.

He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.


Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter
to King Jehoram years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been
miraculously transported to another location on Earth [not heaven].

The first heaven consists of [the Earth’s atmosphere]. John 3:13 reveals
that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.

(emphasis added mine)
So I am more confused with your words than I was before...did Elijah go to heaven like Scripture clearly says? Or did he not go like you said?

 

[SuperCow]

View attachment 310969

This longer ending from 2 Esdras 14:48 can only be found in the New Revised Standard Version - Catholic Interconfessional (NRSV-CI) among all of the English translations I have read of Scripture which includes the apocryphal books. The sources for this longer ending can be found in the Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic, and the 1 Armenian translations of the aforesaid passage. And the year 5000 AM mentioned by Ezra in this longer ending indicates that Ezra would've been contemporaries with Ezekiel and Daniel; and, what's more this is the same year in which Daniel received the 70 Week Prophecy from the archangel Gabriel in Daniel 9 and, 11:1 is a continuation from the same time period all the way to the close of chapter 12. This is also in the 53rd Year of the Babylonian captivity of the Jews as Cyrus the Great would come into power in the year 5017 AM meaning that Darius the Mede ruled for 17 Years dying at 79 Years old.

That does not put him as a contemporary of Ezekiel and Daniel. The author is clearly using Septuagint Chronology, which is different from the Masoretic by 1386 years. This gives you a creation date of roughly 5400 BC, and would put Ezra's death (or whatever you want to call it) around 400-450 BC, exactly when you expect it in the Bible.

If you use the Samaritan or Masoretic chronology (or Jewish tradition), you get Ezra's death happening several centuries after Jesus death.

 

[Humble Penny]

That does not put him as a contemporary of Ezekiel and Daniel. The author is clearly using Septuagint Chronology, which is different from the Masoretic by 1386 years. This gives you a creation date of roughly 5400 BC, and would put Ezra's death (or whatever you want to call it) around 400-450 BC, exactly when you expect it in the Bible.

If you use the Samaritan or Masoretic chronology (or Jewish tradition), you get Ezra's death happening several centuries after Jesus death.

I actually cover why your view on Ezra not being contemporaries with Ezekiel and Daniel is incorrect here:

Biblical Chronology: From Adam To The End Of The World (5017-5500 Anno Mundi - Babylon To Cyrus; Cyrus To Christ)

I would also add Ezra 1 which literaly tells you that Ezra was one of the many captives who came out of Babylon in the 1st Year of Cyrus the Great...and Daniel tells us that he lived through from the reign of king Nebuchadnezzar all the way through the 3rd Year of Cyrus the Great.

As for the Septuagint reckoning it is the only true reckoning which gives you the proper dates for all world history and allows you to properly plot the reigns of the kings of the various kingdoms of the world whom the Hebrews interacted with and were ruled by. The details of this I give on my blog.

 

[Humble Penny]

That does not put him as a contemporary of Ezekiel and Daniel. The author is clearly using Septuagint Chronology, which is different from the Masoretic by 1386 years. This gives you a creation date of roughly 5400 BC, and would put Ezra's death (or whatever you want to call it) around 400-450 BC, exactly when you expect it in the Bible.

If you use the Samaritan or Masoretic chronology (or Jewish tradition), you get Ezra's death happening several centuries after Jesus death.

Otherwise I don't know where you get the rest of your numbers from with Ezra dying several centuries after the death of Christ...for the Samaritan Pentateuch only has the first 5 Books of Moses which cover the time from Adam to the death of Moses at 120 Years old; the Masoretic Text covers exactly 4,034 Years from Adam to the death of Christ, and doesn't place the death of Ezra anywhere near it or after it...and I've studied the Jewish Chronology whcih also doesn't support your erroneous statement for Ezra's death occuring after Christ's death. The Septuagint covers exactly 5,500 Years from Adam to the death of Christ: which gives you a discrepancy of exaclty 1,466 Years between the MT and LXX.

 

[Humble Penny]

That does not put him as a contemporary of Ezekiel and Daniel. The author is clearly using Septuagint Chronology, which is different from the Masoretic by 1386 years. This gives you a creation date of roughly 5400 BC, and would put Ezra's death (or whatever you want to call it) around 400-450 BC, exactly when you expect it in the Bible.

If you use the Samaritan or Masoretic chronology (or Jewish tradition), you get Ezra's death happening several centuries after Jesus death.

Otherwise I don't know where you get the rest of your numbers from with Ezra dying several centuries after the death of Christ...for the Samaritan Pentateuch only has the first 5 Books of Moses which cover the time from Adam to the death of Moses at 120 Years old; the Masoretic Text covers exactly 4,034 Years from Adam to the death of Christ, and doesn't place the death of Ezra anywhere near it or after it...and I've studied the Jewish Chronology whcih also doesn't support your erroneous statement for Ezra's death occuring after Christ's death. The Septuagint covers exactly 5,500 Years from Adam to the death of Christ: which gives you a discrepancy of exaclty 1,466 Years between the MT and LXX.

I cover the Jewish reckoning in these two blog posts:

Hiding The Messaiah: Falsification Of Genesis 5 & 11 (Conclusion)
28 Year Correction Leads To Great Tribulation In 2040 AD

 

[disciple Clint]

"It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."
2 Corinthians 12:1‭-‬4 NRSV-CI

It's clear the man Paul was referring to was having a vision: he just didn't know whether the man's body or spirit went up to the third heaven.

Paul was talking about himself

 

[honey badger]

Paul was talking about himself

Paul was referring to John ...

 

[disciple Clint]

Paul was referring to John ...

You could be right but the majority of scholars think it was Paul. Now that does not make them right but I tend to go with what my professors had to say and what I found when I studied this question.