MJ Only Talmud Written AFTER 'New Testament' says Talmud Prof. Dr. Hananel Mack of Bar-Ilan University in Israel

[Yahudim]

For nearly twenty years, I have witnessed leaders, teachers, and 'Rabbis' from both the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism, fall all over themselves trying to appear more 'authentic' - by being more 'Rabbinic'. Please understand, I am not being critical of anyone's sincerity, or being critical for the sake of appearances, or being critical to claim superiority or some type of moral 'high ground' over our Christian brethren or our Jewish brethren. All Heaven forbid!

The truth is that the way of salvation is a difficult path for everyone. But what I am advocating is impartial and critical thought for the sake of all our collective good. There is a real opportunity here to correct a critically false impression; one that influences the way we understand what is actually 'authentic', in terms of 'what really came first' and what is really influencing what; the quintessential 'Chicken and Egg' conundrum (and for those that don't know, chickens were created by the Word of Adonai).

Dr. Hananel Mack (pronounced mŏch) is an Orthodox Jew and a professor of Talmud at Bar-Ilan University. He received his Ph.D. at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. His specialty is Midrash and Aggadah literature. He is a man of impeccable credentials and professional reputation. And considering the topic and the nature of his observations, there isn't any way he might be considered biased.

In the course of his studies, Dr. Mack notes that the 'Christian' accounts of the life, times and ministry of the Messianic figure, Yeshua ben Yoseph of Nazareth (that is: the 'Christian Gospels and Epistles') are older than the Talmud and indeed are older that the written record of the 'Oral Torah'. Further, Dr. Mack, notes that the weekly Shabbat readings of the Haftorah have been changed to specifically omit the readings that Messiah Yeshua read in synagogue along with all of those prophetic scriptures that were quoted by His talmidim in order to validate His calling and office!

Within the discipline of historical analysis and textualism, these facts carry profound implications. Dr. Mack suggest that some practices of Jewish Orthodox is a codification of Pharisaic traditions, beliefs and that the changes to Haftorah readings and the general avoidance of certain prophetic scriptures within synagogue settings occurred as a reaction to the claims of Christianity, also known as Messianism.

I find this admission astonishing. But for all of us, the question becomes, what do you think of this disclosure? What does this revelation that the Messianic writings preceded the preservation of Pharisaic traditions and the birth of Jewish Orthodoxly mean to you?

 

[Yahudim]

When I wrote these words on the OP, "For nearly twenty years, I have witnessed leaders, teachers, and 'Rabbis' from both the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism, fall all over themselves trying to appear more 'authentic' - by being more 'Rabbinic'." Those words were born in a flood of memories, most of them were bittersweet. Back them, this Messianic Forum shared a lot of traits with the American 'Wild West'.

Folks from many Christian denominations, Jewish anti-missionaries, the occasional Satanists and outright atheists would fill our threads and discussions with contrary, hostile and off-topic posts with impunity. Mods were understaffed and the Fire Department wasn't an option, despite the flames.

I remember Tishri, visionary and Lulav among several others, taking on leadership roles and rallied for a stronger SOP and Forum Rules, a more peaceful environment and most of all, more Messiah-like responses to the non-stop arguments, indignities and outrageous demands by non-members. Everyone had an opinion and few were inclined to give Messianic Judaism the respect it deserved or the benefit of their many doubts.

Back then, there was a lot of ground to cover but very little 'middle' ground. In a nutshell, Messianic Judaism was under attack from all quarters. But the good that came from it was the never-ending discussions of scripture, history and context, despite repeated thread closures by non-MJ friendly Mods. Finally we received from the owners, permission to write our own SOP and Forum Rules that put much of the chaos to rest.

The irony is that this discussion about the relationship between Orthodox Judaism and Christianity had evidently occurred for decades right under our noses. But it was only being discussed by students of Orthodox Judaism in Hebrew-speaking universities, and only briefly making it's way to an Israeli newspaper by 2005. Had these revelations been made available here in 2005, what a discussion that would have sparked! But these days, it seems like we are more like old folks on the front porch, discussing the weather, the signs in the heavens and watching the world going by.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

For nearly twenty years, I have witnessed leaders, teachers, and 'Rabbis' from both the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism, fall all over themselves trying to appear more 'authentic' - by being more 'Rabbinic'. Please understand, I am not being critical of anyone's sincerity, or being critical for the sake of appearances, or being critical to claim superiority or some type of moral 'high ground' over our Christian brethren or our Jewish brethren. All Heaven forbid!

The truth is that the way of salvation is a difficult path for everyone. But what I am advocating is impartial and critical thought for the sake of all our collective good. There is a real opportunity here to correct a critically false impression; one that influences the way we understand what is actually 'authentic', in terms of 'what really came first' and what is really influencing what; the quintessential 'Chicken and Egg' conundrum (and for those that don't know, chickens were created by the Word of Adonai).

Dr. Hananel Mack (pronounced mŏch) is an Orthodox Jew and a professor of Talmud at Bar-Ilan University. He received his Ph.D. at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. His specialty is Midrash and Aggadah literature. He is a man of impeccable credentials and professional reputation. And considering the topic and the nature of his observations, there isn't any way he might be considered biased.

In the course of his studies, Dr. Mack notes that the 'Christian' accounts of the life, times and ministry of the Messianic figure, Yeshua ben Yoseph of Nazareth (that is: the 'Christian Gospels and Epistles') are older than the Talmud and indeed are older that the written record of the 'Oral Torah'. Further, Dr. Mack, notes that the weekly Shabbat readings of the Haftorah have been changed to specifically omit the readings that Messiah Yeshua read in synagogue along with all of those prophetic scriptures that were quoted by His talmidim in order to validate His calling and office!

Within the discipline of historical analysis and textualism, these facts carry profound implications. Dr. Mack suggest that some practices of Jewish Orthodox is a codification of Pharisaic traditions, beliefs and that the changes to Haftorah readings and the general avoidance of certain prophetic scriptures within synagogue settings occurred as a reaction to the claims of Christianity, also known as Messianism.

I find this admission astonishing. But for all of us, the question becomes, what do you think of this disclosure? What does this revelation that the Messianic writings preceded the preservation of Pharisaic traditions and the birth of Jewish Orthodoxly mean to you?

The path is straight and the burden isnt too much. I suppose the difficult part comes when finding others on the wayside in need of assistance. But even that is a simple endeavor burdened only by time, retrospectively.

The talmud is a large volume of writings. Particular to an intrepid culture over 3 thousand yrs old.
M'shnah would be the primary part to read.

 

[Yahudim]

The path is straight and the burden isnt too much. I suppose the difficult part comes when finding others on the wayside in need of assistance. But even that is a simple endeavor burdened only by time, retrospectively.

The talmud is a large volume of writings. Particular to an intrepid culture over 3 thousand yrs old.
M'shnah would be the primary part to read.

I said, "The truth is that the way of salvation is a difficult path for everyone." I understated the matter.

We are instructed that the path to salvation is narrow, but broad is the way to destruction.
We are instructed that many are called, but few are chosen.
We are instructed that we fight against an huge army of spiritual beings, that have spawned a vast number of demonic spirits whose sole purpose is to deceive, ensnare, trap and destroy the life, morality, sanity and every noble pursuit of the believer in Adonai and His Messiah.

We cannot see them, but they can see us. They do not sleep. They do not grow old or weary or die.
They observe and scheme and act with deadly precision.

If that were not enough, we also must struggle to sift out the truth from scriptures that have been modified, hidden, destroyed in part and diluted with the traditions of man. The sad truth is, salvation is a narrow path, fraught with peril, clever schemes and deadly traps designed to destroy every son and daughter of the Most High and Creator of All.

Therefore, we are instructed (CLV Ephesians 6:11-17):
11 Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary,
12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials.
13 Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand.
14 Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on.
15 and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace;
16 with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.
17 And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God.

You get that? We are called to fight a full time war against an extremely large and powerful supernatural force that never rests, has a near perfect intelligence file on each of us and we are to individually prevail against all the wiles of this infinitely evil enemy using only defensive weapons. For us, there are no days off, no vacations and only one reward to be received at the end of this mortal struggle - Rest with our Adonai and escape from eternal and excruciating torment.

We are instructed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. There is a reason for that.

You say, "The path is straight and the burden isnt too much." You might be right. For your sake I hope you are. I have no way to judge. But for the vast majority of believers in Messiah Yeshua, Jesus the Christ, I believe they would disagree with your assessment.

 

[Yahudim]

The talmud is a large volume of writings. Particular to an intrepid culture over 3 thousand yrs old.
M'shnah would be the primary part to read.

Getting back to the OP and Talmud, you might want to give me your considered opinion on the first installment of a 3-part podcast from One for Israel. They are calling this series, the Christian Roots of the Jewish Faith. See what they did there?

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Getting back to the OP and Talmud, you might want to give me your considered opinion on the first installment of a 3-part podcast from One for Israel. They are calling this series, the Christian Roots of the Jewish Faith. See what they did there?

My apologies. I approached the conversation with an assumption based on the word, "Talmud", and after watching the video have noticed a misguided view of the word , "haftarah". [Torah portion]
Perhaps that would be somewhere to start.
The prophet portions are a reflection of moon phases. Which is something melek moshe'k would know of. Hence the reaction when He read elsewhere from the ascribed portion of yeshayahu. Only the studious would of heard, and reacted in 2 possible ways. Sifting wheat is done under moonlight.
After observing the men on the video I found that one was a bit over zealous in their conclusions and was corrected a few times. Personally I sensed a familiar spirit of excitement lacking true discipline. A complicated emotional issue, not without remedy though.

 

[Yahudim]

My apologies. I approached the conversation with an assumption based on the word, "Talmud", and after watching the video have noticed a misguided view of the word , "haftarah". [Torah portion]
Perhaps that would be somewhere to start.
The prophet portions are a reflection of moon phases. Which is something melek moshe'k would know of. Hence the reaction when He read elsewhere from the ascribed portion of yeshayahu. Only the studious would of heard, and reacted in 2 possible ways. Sifting wheat is done under moonlight.
After observing the men on the video I found that one was a bit over zealous in their conclusions and was corrected a few times. Personally I sensed a familiar spirit of excitement lacking true discipline. A complicated emotional issue, not without remedy though.

I'm so sorry. I thought you understood.

This discussion has nothing to do with Babylonian or Persian moon worship, superstitious practices or winnowing grain by the moonlight.

In the video, Author/Professor Dr. Golan Broshi and Professor/Dean of Academics Dr. Seth Postel, were discussing the work of Dr. Hananel Mack, from Bar Ilan University · Department of Talmud and Oral Law.

The Video Description reads:

In this episode of Case for Messiah, we explore the profound influence of Yeshua (Jesus) and the New Testament on rabbinic Judaism. Throughout this conversation, we highlight three key ways in which this influence is evident: the reading of the weekly haftarah (prophetic portion), the development of oral law, and the Aramaic translation of the Torah. A striking revelation emerges as the absence of certain key passages from the prophets in synagogue readings—passages that hold significant importance in the New Testament for identifying Yeshua as the Messiah, is discussed. This deliberate omission or alteration suggests a nuanced relationship between Judaism and Christianity, prompting deeper reflection on shared theological heritage.

Professor Mack, posited that since Messianic literature (Gospels, Epistles, etc.) were older than the written record of Rabbinic literature, it could be rightfully inferred;

1. the omissions from the Sabbath readings of those portions of the Prophets that had been quoted in Messianic literature by Messiah Yeshua, or
2. the omissions from the Sabbath readings of those portions of the Prophets quoted by His talmidim to verify a rightful claim to the throne of David,

...could be understood as Messianism having actually influenced the formation and practices of Rabbinic Judaism; hence the podcast series subtitle: The Christian Roots of the Jewish Faith.

Sorry if that wasn't clear to you. Perhaps you should see Parts 2 & 3! That should be enough to get any true believer of Yeshua HaMoshiach really excited!

Berchot v'Shalom chaver,

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

I'm so sorry. I thought you understood.

This discussion has nothing to do with Babylonian or Persian moon worship, superstitious practices or winnowing grain by the moonlight.

In the video, Author/Professor Dr. Golan Broshi and Professor/Dean of Academics Dr. Seth Postel, were discussing the work of Dr. Hananel Mack, from Bar Ilan University · Department of Talmud and Oral Law.

The Video Description reads:


Professor Mack, posited that since Messianic literature (Gospels, Epistles, etc.) were older than the written record of Rabbinic literature, it could be rightfully inferred;

1. the omissions from the Sabbath readings of those portions of the Prophets that had been quoted in Messianic literature by Messiah Yeshua, or
2. the omissions from the Sabbath readings of those portions of the Prophets quoted by His talmidim to verify a rightful claim to the throne of David,

...could be understood as Messianism having actually influenced the formation and practices of Rabbinic Judaism; hence the podcast series subtitle: The Christian Roots of the Jewish Faith.

Sorry if that wasn't clear to you. Perhaps you should see Parts 2 & 3! That should be enough to get any true believer of Yeshua HaMoshiach really excited!

Berchot v'Shalom chaver,

I've not found a link to Mack's work yet. So far it seems the premise is that the haftarah(prophetic portion) has changed according to one shabbat reading by Yeshua in the new testament. Which is based on an assumption He read the traditional haftarah portion at that time.
I dont believe that is the case. Instead He likely read a specific ch verse from yeshayahu to tell the listeners who He is, contrary to the traditional portion. If the haftarah(prophetic portions) were the same as today then it makes sense that Yeshua said the blind are leading the blind. Because they were ignoring The Light within the Holy writ, and shed upon in the new testament.
Luke 4

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

I've not found a link to Mack's work yet. So far it seems the premise is that the haftarah(prophetic portion) has changed according to one shabbat reading by Yeshua in the new testament. Which is based on an assumption He read the traditional haftarah portion at that time.
I dont believe that is the case. Instead He likely read a specific ch verse from yeshayahu to tell the listeners who He is, contrary to the traditional portion. If the haftarah(prophetic portions) were the same as today then it makes sense that Yeshua said the blind are leading the blind. Because they were ignoring The Light within the Holy writ, and shed upon in the new testament.
Luke ch 4

Cited from wiki" is info on the number of verses read and other customs from around the time of first century.

[ The Talmud also says that the haftara should be at least 21 verses in length, to match the minimal Torah reading,[49] but if the "topic finished" (salik inyana) applies this requirement is not necessary. Thus, the haftara for Ki Teitzei for Ashkenazim and Sephardim is only 10 verses; and the haftara for Miketz is, for Ashkenazim and Sephardim only 15 verses, and for Italic Jews only 14 verses. The Tosefta mentions a haftara in antiquity (before the 2nd century CE) that was just one verse, namely Isaiah 52:3, and some others that were only four or five verses.[50]

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

My apologies. I approached the conversation with an assumption based on the word, "Talmud", and after watching the video have noticed a misguided view of the word , "haftarah". [Torah portion]
Perhaps that would be somewhere to start.
The prophet portions are a reflection of moon phases. Which is something melek moshe'k would know of. Hence the reaction when He read elsewhere from the ascribed portion of yeshayahu. Only the studious would of heard, and reacted in 2 possible ways. Sifting wheat is done under moonlight.
After observing the men on the video I found that one was a bit over zealous in their conclusions and was corrected a few times. Personally I sensed a familiar spirit of excitement lacking true discipline. A complicated emotional issue, not without remedy though.

https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/3855468/jewish/When-the-Moon-Disappears.htm

Cited from above link, and related to something I shared with @Hark concerning jewish thought involving the moon. Nothing of which is pagan but rather orthodox amongst the family.

[ "The birth of the new moon brings with it a new light, a new spiritual energy. "]

John 3
[ Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.]

The key words being, "water and spirit"!.
Which of course is a hebrew parable related to, "nothing new under the sun"? Or is there..

 

[Yahudim]

It's almost as if you didn't even watch the videos. Smh. Nevermind...

 

[Yahudim]

https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/3855468/jewish/When-the-Moon-Disappears.htm

Cited from above link, and related to something I shared with @Hark concerning jewish thought involving the moon. Nothing of which is pagan but rather orthodox amongst the family.

[ "The birth of the new moon brings with it a new light, a new spiritual energy. "]

John 3
[ Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.]

The key words being, "water and spirit"!.
Which of course is a hebrew parable related to, "nothing new under the sun"? Or is there..

Wait. I may have misapprehended the cause of our miscommunication.

You think that months and Moeds are linked to the moon cycle.

Have you read anything about the pre-Babylonian captivity-Zadok Calendar? It was still in use until the Greeks came along and supplanted the Zadokim Priesthood with the Hasmoneans.
Do you not know that Babylonian and Persian cultures engaged in moon worship and regulated the months, their worship and their agricultural and animal husbandry practices accordingly?
You don't know that the Jewish people picked up those practices during the Babylonian/Persian diaspora?

Don't get me wrong. I love the Chabad love of Adonai and how they advocate for the loving treatment of all. But they still aren't my go-to source for the historicity of Torah compliance. Adonai said the sons of Zadok were the final arbiters of scriptural disputes and they were still around during the ministry of Messiah Yeshua, although not in charge of the Temple service. The Herodians always kept one Zadokim Priest for certain duties because from 166 BCE until 70 CE, approximately 300 non-Zadokite Priests died during the Temple services.

Do me a favor. Watch the videos again with eyes wide open. Try to set aside any dogma you may prefer and give me an honest review and appraisal. I would really appreciate it. And remember, these are NOT Messianic Jews that are making these observations. These are Israeli academics, many of them Observant Jews and Rabbis.

Here they are, in order. Parts 1, 2 and 3:

EDIT: Oops! Forgot to add word, 'NOT' to Messianic Jews. My bad.

 

[Yahudim]

 

[Yahudim]

 

[Yahudim]

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

It's almost as if you didn't even watch the videos. Smh. Nevermind...

I've personally taken the time to watch the videos plural after you shared them. And stil remain objectively neutral on the opinions shared. Only a few scholars were mentioned by name and their words were alleged without citing source material, unless I missed it. If so, I'd have to rewatch the hr.
Mostly is a focus on the aramaic Onkelos translations that deviate from the literal sphere of hebrew in a dozen or so ch-verses Those can be found at wiki, and are more like an exegetical or agadah.
Which is why I suggested the mishnah as a primary area to study. At least Before reading more throughout the talmud.
There wasnt much more than hypothesis involved in the young mans power point.
But he did do a decent job in finding a few slight flaws in the talmudic halacha. Which is not to far from Yeshua's guidance to avoid burdensome traditions.
Overall I give them a 78 on their history essay.

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

It's almost as if you didn't even watch the videos. Smh. Nevermind...

One question?
Was the individual who led the PowerPoint influenced by the Jesuit order?