Spinoff thread: Kissing = impure? No kissing = holier? Adding to God's laws = ungodly

[ImperialPhantom]

As was posted in another thread, and I took to this thread because I didn't want to derail the other one any further than it has already been derailed:

There is nothing wrong with kissing. This is not an anti-kissing thread. Kissing, like anything else in life, can be a wonderful experience. Believe me, my very first kiss was, at the time, a wonderful experience.

The fact is, however, all of these "when was your first time" or "have you done this yet" questions create imaginary social statuses for us to fall into. My having kissed a girl didn't make me a better man, it didn't solve my life problems, and it certainly didn't improve my romance life. Kissing someone won't automatically lead to marriage and it won't even lead to a decent relationship or an improved love life. It is simply an experience, and - like all experiences - is secondary to the more important factors they are part of.

Again, we are not condemning the act, by the over-hype surrounding the act. There are so many people dwelling on things like "I haven't (had sex/kissed a person/hugged a lobster) yet" when they should be looking to other things. The greatest thing that happened to me was when Christ raised me from my death in sin, not when I first kissed a girl.

I don't get the impression, at least on Christian Forums, that most folks turn kissing/sex/hugging lobsters (sorry, couldn't resist) into a social status. Kind of reverse, in fact - it's like people think you are this better person, or holier person, or more of a pure person, because you haven't been kissed. Which is entirely not true.

It's this kind of "pro-nice guy mentality" extrapolated, that really bugs me. Many Christians here have SUCH a huge issue with adding extra caveats to God's laws, besides the ones that are actually in the Bible. Adding more "do nots" doesn't make us better people or more Godly or more holy. Why did Jesus die for us? Easy: He died to free us to do the "dos", not spend our whole lives concentrating on avoiding every "do not" there is. We're not called to be monks living in isolation. The Christian faith is a social faith, so to speak. Even if we're not called to evangelize verbally, we still evangelize by our actions.

And nobody has ever done the "dos" while obsessing over the "do nots" to the degree of adding to God's laws. The same mentality that leads to the "no kissing = more pure than kissing" track, is a dangerous one.

 

[BreadAlone]

The content of the OP has merit, but there seems to be a faulty view of what is termed as the "do nots."

We'll stick with the example at hand, for simplicity's sake. No, Scripture does not lay out for us "thou shalt not kiss thy girlfriend more than 10 minutes a day; I am the LORD!" It does, however, tell us to respect our bodies as temples of the living God. It does tell us that all other sins a man commits outside his body, but sexual immorality is against that body - God's temple.

Abstaining from even the slightest hint of sexual immorality, remaining pure and keeping one's integrity - being above reproach - should not be looked down upon. Christ calls us to "pluck out" our own eye, or "cut off" our own hand, if it causes us to sin. Kissing often leads to much more . . . or at least to temptation for much more (and please don't argue this with me, because I've been there).

Now, what is important is that we do not judge one another based on these issues. Kissing is not inherently wrong, so a Christian should not go off bashing other Christians for doing it - particularly when he has his own sins to address (see: speck-plank analogy). What's important is that we stay firmly planted in Christ, recognizing our own sinfulness and need for his righteousness, which he freely offers based on his perfect life, innocent death, and glorious resurrection.

 

[Inkachu]

It seems popular among non-Christians or "borderline" believers, to claim that Christians over-value physical purity (never been kissed, etc). But among Christians, I've seen anything from disinterest in the subject, to the total opposite viewpoint (I'm a loser cause I've never been on a date, if I've never been kissed what's wrong with me, etc).

I don't think the OP holds much merit, sorry. Yes, there ARE Christians who act like physical purity is the epitome of holiness, but I believe they're the minority.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

I think you're missing my point. If kissing often leads to much more for you, so be it, and keeping away from something that could stumble you, is indeed good. But don't impress that upon others whom kissing might not stumble.

Now, you say "kissing is not inherently wrong, so a Christian should not go off bashing other Christians for doing it", but I'm going to take it even further and say Christians shouldn't look down at all on others for doing it. And when you read the thread that this was spun off of, you see examples of what spurred me to make this thread - this undertone of "never been kissed = more pure".

 

[ImperialPhantom]

It seems popular among non-Christians or "borderline" believers, to claim that Christians over-value physical purity (never been kissed, etc). But among Christians, I've seen anything from disinterest in the subject, to the total opposite viewpoint (I'm a loser cause I've never been on a date, if I've never been kissed what's wrong with me, etc).

I don't think the OP holds much merit, sorry. Yes, there ARE Christians who act like physical purity is the epitome of holiness, but I believe they're the minority.

I'm neither a non-Christian or a borderline believer. I'm a Christian who is simply here, going against the grain and the groupthink and the "do not" crowd, presenting a new viewpoint.

If you don't think the OP has merit, you missed my point. They are probably the minority in real life, but here on ChristianForums, they are either the majority, or so loud that they might as well be the majority.

 

[K9_Trainer]

Well never been kissed =/= more pure IMO. If purity is not sinning before God, then you can be a virgin and never been kissed and be as impure the next sinner.

It's doing nothing but reinforcing the old "sex is dirty" notion.

 

[Sketcher]

I thought that fad had mostly blown over.

 

[BreadAlone]

I think you're missing my point. If kissing often leads to much more for you, so be it, and keeping away from something that could stumble you, is indeed good. But don't impress that upon others whom kissing might not stumble.

Now, you say "kissing is not inherently wrong, so a Christian should not go off bashing other Christians for doing it", but I'm going to take it even further and say Christians shouldn't look down at all on others for doing it. And when you read the thread that this was spun off of, you see examples of what spurred me to make this thread - this undertone of "never been kissed = more pure".

I see your point, but I think that there is under-emphasis of the concept of Ephesians 5:3.

Someone who goes off and makes out as often as they want 'cause they feel like it and it's not explicitly condemned is not following the spirit of Paul's sentiments with regard to fleeing any hint of immorality.

 

[broken_one]

I feel like I'm a lesser person because I've done some things, yes.

Of course those sort of girls (you know, Christian ones) never like me anyway so I'm in essence crying over spilt milk.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Kind of reverse, in fact - it's like people think you are this better person, or holier person, or more of a pure person, because you haven't been kissed.

I've never been kissed.

 

[Inkachu]

I'm neither a non-Christian or a borderline believer. I'm a Christian who is simply here, going against the grain and the groupthink and the "do not" crowd, presenting a new viewpoint.

If you don't think the OP has merit, you missed my point. They are probably the minority in real life, but here on ChristianForums, they are either the majority, or so loud that they might as well be the majority.

But I don't think your viewpoint is new...not saying that to be offensive.

I've been a Christian for almost 30 years. I've been a part of many, many Christian circles and groups. And honestly, the only place I've really seen any significant (albeit small) number of the "purity is everything" proponents is here on CF. And they aren't the majority, IMHO. But I'm not here to argue, so that's all I'll say

 

[ImperialPhantom]

I see your point, but I think that there is under-emphasis of the concept of Ephesians 5:3.

Someone who goes off and makes out as often as they want 'cause they feel like it and it's not explicitly condemned is not following the spirit of Paul's sentiments with regard to fleeing any hint of immorality.

But that's just as much of an extreme as being 30 and never been kissed. There's a grey area - like a guy just kissing his girlfriend. Or fiance. Or, heck, even someone he's on the first or second date with, but is intended to be a relationship prospect and not just a one nighter.

The verse about "any hint of sexual immorality" is a very poor translation on the part of the NIV - no other version (KJV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, NLT) has that verse worded like that. This is what it says in the NASB, for example:

3But (G)immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;

3But(G) sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness(H) must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

So what the NIV incorrectly translates as "put on the cleanest image possible", basically, every other translation simply words as "don't commit sexual immorality"

 

[ImperialPhantom]

But I don't think your viewpoint is new...not saying that to be offensive.

I've been a Christian for almost 30 years. I've been a part of many, many Christian circles and groups. And honestly, the only place I've really seen any significant (albeit small) number of the "purity is everything" proponents is here on CF. And they aren't the majority, IMHO. But I'm not here to argue, so that's all I'll say

My viewpoint is far less new than this new "purity is everything" viewpoint, which is largely an invention of the modern church. My viewpoint is old-school in comparison.

My post was referring merely to CF's culture, not Christian culture in general.

 

[BreadAlone]

But that's just as much of an extreme as being 30 and never been kissed. There's a grey area - like a guy just kissing his girlfriend. Or fiance. Or, heck, even someone he's on the first or second date with, but is intended to be a relationship prospect and not just a one nighter.

The verse about "any hint of sexual immorality" is a very poor translation on the part of the NIV - no other version (KJV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, NLT) has that verse worded like that. This is what it says in the NASB, for example:

So what the NIV incorrectly translates as "put on the cleanest image possible", basically, every other translation simply words as "don't commit sexual immorality"

The intent is the same in the other versions, as far as I can see. I agree that the NIV is not the best translation if you're looking for strict Greek-to-English accuracy, as it deviates from the original wordage into easier-to-understand paraphrase (it's "alright" for the general populace, but for scholarly works there are better translations). Looking at the KJV, the idea is still very much the same. It calls for "fornication/prostitution" (the def. of the word translated "sexual immorality" in NIV), and also for "uncleanness" (the def. of that in the Greek refers to physical impurity), to have no place among the Believers. I'd say the spirit is the same.

 

[Howard Cneal]

As was posted in another thread, and I took to this thread because I didn't want to derail the other one any further than it has already been derailed:



I don't get the impression, at least on Christian Forums, that most folks turn kissing/sex/hugging lobsters (sorry, couldn't resist) into a social status. Kind of reverse, in fact - it's like people think you are this better person, or holier person, or more of a pure person, because you haven't been kissed. Which is entirely not true.

It's this kind of "pro-nice guy mentality" extrapolated, that really bugs me. Many Christians here have SUCH a huge issue with adding extra caveats to God's laws, besides the ones that are actually in the Bible. Adding more "do nots" doesn't make us better people or more Godly or more holy. Why did Jesus die for us? Easy: He died to free us to do the "dos", not spend our whole lives concentrating on avoiding every "do not" there is. We're not called to be monks living in isolation. The Christian faith is a social faith, so to speak. Even if we're not called to evangelize verbally, we still evangelize by our actions.

And nobody has ever done the "dos" while obsessing over the "do nots" to the degree of adding to God's laws. The same mentality that leads to the "no kissing = more pure than kissing" track, is a dangerous one.

I totally agree.

I see many Christians I know personally add to the Bible. They even have prohibitions against dating in general. That was why i left my last "church" (I think it was a cult actually). The leaders there held such a tight rein on the "youth" (i.e. people in their early to mid-twenties) that they absolutely forbade anyone from going out with anyone as a "couple". They saw the alternate "courting" to be the answer. Yet almost no one even courts now. Everyone who left the church is now either engaged or dating someone. (Hence, my turn is next! )

Nevertheless, it is sad that some Christians, like the ones here, and the ones I know personally (and yes, they are Christians, cult or no), are such prudes. There is no other word for it than that. I'm not saying we should all be having wild orgies, but I think it's equally dangerous to be so sexually repressed that we forget and lose sight of the fact that God Himself created us each as sexual beings, with an innate attraction and desire for the opposite sex. I've heard people say they want to save their first kiss for the altar. That's great!

But in this society, it's terribly unrealistic. I am already disqualified. Do I feel shame or regret...? Heck no. If anything, I regret the times when I *should* have kissed a couple girls and didn't. (Stupid me.) I'm not saying this mindset is wrong - far be it from that!

But a holier than thou attitude towards what one can and cannot do is not healthy for anyone. I think it's more a matter of making a virtue out of necessity. I.e. - 'I can't get anyone right now, so I'll revel in my purity and say that this way is better.' And to that I say, whatever makes you happy and helps you sleep easier at night.

But let's not lie to ourselves. (Unless we're asexual, of course... which is a whole other topic.)

H. Cneal

 

[alacrity]

I haven't read the replies but just a side note... it's interesting that we talk a lot about "not adding to God's word" yet we don't realize that most of Bible is reinterpretation of earlier texts - even Deuteronomy has a new expression of laws in Exodus in light of a new historical context. Check out the difference in Isaiah vs Ezra's approach to foreigners, both based on Torah interpretation. And remember that the New Testament itself was not originally considered scripture! Obviously, now the Biblical canon is closed, but it's important to keep in mind that our 21st century worldviews are fundamentally different from those in ancient times including Jesus' time, and scripture functioned differently.

I have to put a disclaimer that I'm not Jewish and don't know much about the oral law traditions so correct me if I'm not expressing this correctly. From what I've learned, good rabbis put a "fence" around the law to protect the Torah, making it more strict in order that the moral principles in Torah will not be violated. Both the written Torah and these oral laws are included in halakhah. In this sense Jesus was a great rabbi: "You have heard it said... 'you shall not murder'... But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment." (Matthew 5)

So while I agree that there is danger in adding things to God's word, the Bible doesn't explicitly state how we are to act in every situation, and certainly not within our current cultural situations. Figuring out how Christians should live requires interpretation within the church community and certainly is not an easy task. We should take care to make a clear distinction between determining how to live based on scripture vs. adding false teachings to scripture.

While I am not too concerned with the original topic, I think it relates to Romans 14 (specifically verses 22-23) - your conscience is the most important factor here. I know my conscience quite well and it makes my life a lot more difficult! But it's each person's responsibility to ensure we are not sinning - neither in ways mentioned in the Bible nor additional ways that our consciences inform us about, and also to accept those whose consciences allow more or less than ours.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I remember on CF teens a lot of the girls were like that. No kissing till marriage and what not..

I don't care, but the issue is simple.

 

[TanteBelle]

I think you're missing my point. If kissing often leads to much more for you, so be it, and keeping away from something that could stumble you, is indeed good. But don't impress that upon others whom kissing might not stumble.

Now, you say "kissing is not inherently wrong, so a Christian should not go off bashing other Christians for doing it", but I'm going to take it even further and say Christians shouldn't look down at all on others for doing it. And when you read the thread that this was spun off of, you see examples of what spurred me to make this thread - this undertone of "never been kissed = more pure".

I have to admit, it's a toughie for me. My folks are adamant that kissing is to be left to the altar and I really can see why they believe that and having heard the testimonies of so many, I really do give that idea much credit! Jacob also kissed Rachel. Now sure, we don't know exaclty where; her cheek, her hand, her dirty big toe for all we know! But if you were a bloke and you saw a stunningly gorgeous girl in front of you and you've been told to go get a wife, you can understand why he would've kissed her on the lips, if he did! Am I right to say that, blokes?

Do I hold myself up as some super spiritually pure woman simply because I've never done anything of a romantic nature to anyone? God forbid! I mean, get off the grass; a girl can be the most outwardly pure girl and yet be a total harlot! Rahab was a harlot by trade and yet I can tell you, that when she married Salmon (yes, that was his name! ) she was a chaste bride! 'Therefore if any man be in Messiah, he is a new creature. All things have passed away, behold all things are become new!'

How can I look down on someone who's already done that when every single one of my elder siblings kissed before they were married!!!??? However, as one bloke on here brought up that scripture about our bodies being the temple of God, yes, I totally agree with what he says. There are two extremes here; those who say, 'Don't kiss, it's a sin!' and those who say, 'Heck, what's wrong with it!? By all means, do it!' I can't speak 100% either side. Personally, I'm under the belief that no, I shouldn't. I'd want to keep all my 'firsts' for one person (I've had waaaaay more than plenty of opportunities to lose them all!!!) and I can't say how I'd be if I were in love (the whole 'rosey glasses' thing; I've seen it first hand go horridly ugly!!!). But I also don't want to meet an ex, if I were to have one, in years to come and have him say to his new wife, 'Oh, she's an old girlfriend of mine, and yeah, I did kiss her too!' I don't want to kiss a heap of other women's husbands! It's the same in regards to 'that' as in when you kiss a person, you're not only kissing that person ........ but every other person that that person has kissed too!!

I totally agree.

I see many Christians I know personally add to the Bible. They even have prohibitions against dating in general. That was why i left my last "church" (I think it was a cult actually). The leaders there held such a tight rein on the "youth" (i.e. people in their early to mid-twenties) that they absolutely forbade anyone from going out with anyone as a "couple". They saw the alternate "courting" to be the answer. Yet almost no one even courts now. Everyone who left the church is now either engaged or dating someone. (Hence, my turn is next! )

Nevertheless, it is sad that some Christians, like the ones here, and the ones I know personally (and yes, they are Christians, cult or no), are such prudes. There is no other word for it than that. I'm not saying we should all be having wild orgies, but I think it's equally dangerous to be so sexually repressed that we forget and lose sight of the fact that God Himself created us each as sexual beings, with an innate attraction and desire for the opposite sex. I've heard people say they want to save their first kiss for the altar. That's great!

Personally, I don't agree with dating and I do agree with courting. Hey, my sister is a living proof of it! Sure, they both admit that it was darn hard! There's nothing wrong with going out as a couple, but when you're alone as a couple, that's where the temptation can start.

In regards to the last paragraph there, yes, I am a total prude! Left public school at 14 and it wasn't really talked about in much detail at all! Homeschooling never mentioned it, and in my household, the subject is a real tabboo! Thus the reason for my total naivity on that subject!! Not that that bothers me too much because I'm still battling with the devil and my own personal demons in that area! And believe me, I don't wish to explain that one!

 

[Stravinsk]

I don't get the impression, at least on Christian Forums, that most folks turn kissing/sex/hugging lobsters (sorry, couldn't resist) into a social status. Kind of reverse, in fact - it's like people think you are this better person, or holier person, or more of a pure person, because you haven't been kissed. Which is entirely not true.

Strange, I've never gotten that impression...perhaps I'm not visiting the right threads or haven't been around long enough?

There does, in general, seem to be more of a focus on sexuality (that is, abstaining from it before marriage) in Christian circles. Even though it is declared simply in the bible - there is not alot of focus on it from the biblical perspective. Adultery, on the other hand, is given alot of focus.

I mean, God mentions keeping His Sabbath and not eating swine far more and with greater consequences than He mentions pre-marital sex. But very few Christians care to keep those. Gluttony, sloth, malice etc are also mentioned many more times than pre-marital sex throughout the bible. I'm guessing there's a reason for the multiple mentions. It's perhaps to reinforce a point?

Although pre-marital sex is a sin - I think the *human* focus on it has much more to do with the serious life/lifestyle consequences of it - children out of wedlock, STD's, greater emotional attachment etc. In short, God does say it is a sin - but the weight of multiple mentions and great consequences don't come into it from a biblical perspective like they do for other things.

 

[TanteBelle]

Strange, I've never gotten that impression...perhaps I'm not visiting the right threads or haven't been around long enough?

There does, in general, seem to be more of a focus on sexuality (that is, abstaining from it before marriage) in Christian circles. Even though it is declared simply in the bible - there is not alot of focus on it from the biblical perspective. Adultery, on the other hand, is given alot of focus.

I mean, God mentions keeping His Sabbath and not eating swine far more and with greater consequences than He mentions pre-marital sex. But very few Christians care to keep those. Gluttony, sloth, malice etc are also mentioned many more times than pre-marital sex throughout the bible. I'm guessing there's a reason for the multiple mentions. It's perhaps to reinforce a point?

Although pre-marital sex is a sin - I think the *human* focus on it has much more to do with the serious life/lifestyle consequences of it - children out of wedlock, STD's, greater emotional attachment etc. In short, God does say it is a sin - but the weight of multiple mentions and great consequences don't come into it from a biblical perspective like they do for other things.

I so get where you are coming from and I don't mean to sound like some airy-fairy Christian, but believers should marry and date/court with the spiritual in mind! Our marriages ought to reflect Messiah and scripture doesn't have Him going from one lover to another, tasting this one, and tasting that one. It is a hard subject, I know! But personally, I want to try see it from a more spiritual point of view.