Sound Doctrine Based On God's Word

[JonathanBeWell]

God bless you, believers,

... with faith, strength, protection, providence, consolation, correction, communion, Christian fellowship, Holy Spirit fruit, love, light and power from the LORD, in Jesus Christ's holy name. I love you. You are loved. Bless you.

I have been searching scriptures for sound doctrine answers to my questions about the concepts of rapture timing referred to as 'pre, mid or post tribulation (trib) rapture' and salvation security or 'once saved always saved.' After reading a bit of Hebrews, Matthew 24 and the end of Revelation, I fear that someone is able to walk away or even disqualify themselves from their faith and that the rapture looks to be after the great tribulation. I will provide some scriptures below to suggest why it looks that way. What do you think? Please pray for Holy Spirit discernment, revelation, clarity, wisdom and sound doctrine based on God's first and last word. Thanks for any input.

Love and blessings, Jonathan

Hebrews 10:26-31, 38-39

Hebrews 10:26-31
Authorized (King James) Version
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39
Authorized (King James) Version
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Matthew 24:13, 15, 21, 27-31

Matthew 24:13
Authorized (King James) Version
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:15
Authorized (King James) Version
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Matthew 24:21
Authorized (King James) Version
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:27-31
Authorized (King James) Version
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 18:21, 19:1, 7-8, 11-14, 20:4, 21:7-8, 22:14-15

Revelation 18:21
Authorized (King James) Version
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 19:1
Authorized (King James) Version
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19:7-8
Authorized (King James) Version
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:11-14
Authorized (King James) Version
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 20:4
Authorized (King James) Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 21:7-8
Authorized (King James) Version
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14-15
Authorized (King James) Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Hebrews 10:26-31, 38-39
Matthew 24:13, 15, 21, 27-31
Revelation 18:21, 19:1, 7-8, 11-14, 20:4, 21:7-8, 22:14-15

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The rapture just means being caught up. When Jesus comes those dead in Christ and those alive at the time will meet or be caught up to Jesus in the air.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I believe Jesus saves His people through tribulation, not from it, just like He did with the Israelites during the plagues of Egypt. There is no scripture that says Jesus beams up the saints during the great tribulation, but will get His people through it.

God bless!

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Well i am not open to debate as this has been established as true by me for some time.
But i will post links to, support for eternal security for the believer and a link about the rapture per tribulation.

Future Salvation in the Book of Hebrews – Grace Evangelical Society

Eternal Security in John’s Gospel: Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Freth]

I believe Jesus saves His people through tribulation, not from it, just like He did with the Israelites during the plagues of Egypt. There is no scripture that says Jesus beams up the saints during the great tribulation, but will get His people through it.

Amen!

Jesus, in Matthew 24, states that the elect go through great tribulation.

Matthew 24:20-22 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

• Flight of the saints.
• Great tribulation is described as such as has never been seen before, since the beginning of the world, to this time, nor shall ever be. These are the last days of earth's history being described.
• The days shortened for the elect's sake.
• No mention by Jesus of a pre-tribulation rapture of the elect.

Revelation 12 describes the dragon as enraged.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

• The dragon, Satan, was enraged with the woman (church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed.
• The remnant, "...which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus [the Spirit of prophecy; Revelation 19:10]."
• The remnant must remain on earth for the dragon to make war with them.
• No mention by John of a pre-tribulation rapture of the remnant.

Why is Satan enraged with the remnant of her seed?

• They keep the commandments of God. The remnant are loyal to God, not Satan. This points to the fact that Satan has his own counterfeit of God's law.
• They have the Spirit of prophecy. The remnant have an understanding of end time prophecy; the foreknowledge of what is going to happen before it happens. God has equipped the remnant with everything they need to weather any storm Satan can hurl at them.

It's no wonder the patience of the saints (through tribulation) is defined as keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12).

Jesus had a message for the church of Laodicea concerning righteousness.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.​

• Gold is a symbol of righteous character (Isaiah 13:12).
• White raiment is a robe of righteousness.

Revelation 17:4 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

• They came out of great tribulation; i.e. they went through it.
• No mention by John of a pre-tribulation rapture of the saints.

Conclusion: The saints must go through the tribulation and endure until the end.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

 

[JonathanBeWell]

I have settled back into the comfort of pre tribulation rapture and eternal salvation.